Read by Council Make Homebases Vulnerable, Without Losing Everything

    What do you think of the suggestion?

    • Absolutely love it!

      Votes: 7 13.2%
    • It's good

      Votes: 5 9.4%
    • It's not bad

      Votes: 5 9.4%
    • Couldn't care if it's in or not

      Votes: 0 0.0%
    • Don't particularly like it

      Votes: 6 11.3%
    • It's bad

      Votes: 1 1.9%
    • Bloody awful!

      Votes: 29 54.7%

    • Total voters
      53

    Lecic

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    While giving people the ability to blow up newbies isn't exactly good, it isn't entirely bad either. Keeping newbies all protected with infinite amounts of pillows, is bad. Not having any interaction or any threat will make the game less entertaining, and will ultimately bore them.
    It's only keeping them protected until they start claiming other systems to expand, at which point they can hopefully defend themselves, or have at least found some allies to help them.

    If it's no longer going to be possible for a faction to live on just a HB, what's the point in removing the use of the HB as a final place to fall back to?
     
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    The issue with something like this really comes down to player count. In EVE, if you want a one-man faction, you're just asking to get crushed. In starmade, a 3 person faction, with coordinated players that are on regularly, can be a rather powerful force to contend with. In EVE, if your faction has a hundred or more players, chances are some of them are going to be on basically ALL the time. You also likely have the resources coming in to have a decent website, coordinate attacks, etc.

    Starmade, even on a huge server, couldnt support the kind of playerbase to have this as a standard for all users. There have been some good comments on both sides of this discussion, and I'm all about new things to do with faction points and ways to drain them (see sig), but losing invulnerability in anything less than a few days to a week would keep me off public servers. I'm not ALWAYS active, but I try to play at least a few days a week, and when I'm on public servers I try to participate in events, PvP, and PvE equally, as well as building. I would prefer it as a survival game first and wargame second.
     
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    Because, as a final place to fall back to, I can feasibly store 90 percent of a faction's fleet power and keep it invulnerable. All bunched together at one station means you'll never really manage to catch them docking and undocking but they can in turn catch your vulnerable stations whenever they find them.

    I still think that this suggestion is not the best way to implement vulnerable stations but it definitely needs to be implemented in some form.
     
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    You know what's funny? Is this can be implemented in an individual server basis already. Like literally, I did it with my server. The game already has a mechanic to make home bases vulnerable and with a few tweaks to the faction point system it makes it very comprehensible. So that little factions don't get squashed but larger factions are able to have a legitimate path to absolute conquest over their enemy. There is absolutely no need to make this complex home base vulnerability system. 1.) Because the game would lose some of its uniqueness 2.) Because the mechanic is already in game but takes the server owner to tweak it to work properly, but it is extremely easy to do.
     
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    Just because it can be implemented doesn't mean that it is the default setting. I'd prefer a system that allows for both new player protection and later game vulnerability. If a server wants to go straight PvE or straight PvP they can change the settings to reflect that but allow default to perform a bit of both.
     
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    Just because it can be implemented doesn't mean that it is the default setting. I'd prefer a system that allows for both new player protection and later game vulnerability. If a server wants to go straight PvE or straight PvP they can change the settings to reflect that but allow default to perform a bit of both.

    Is this a reply to my post? If so we are saying the same thing. However I would prefer a game that allows the server owner to edit the settings to their liking (the game already does this).
     

    nightrune

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    You know what's funny? Is this can be implemented in an individual server basis already. Like literally, I did it with my server. The game already has a mechanic to make home bases vulnerable and with a few tweaks to the faction point system it makes it very comprehensible. So that little factions don't get squashed but larger factions are able to have a legitimate path to absolute conquest over their enemy. There is absolutely no need to make this complex home base vulnerability system. 1.) Because the game would lose some of its uniqueness 2.) Because the mechanic is already in game but takes the server owner to tweak it to work properly, but it is extremely easy to do.
    Can you post configs please?
     
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    Can you post configs please?
    PLEASE NOTE: this isn't the complete customfaction.xml file!

    <FactionPointGeneral>
    <BasicValues>
    <FactionPointDeathProtectionMinutes>10</FactionPointDeathProtectionMinutes>
    <IncomeExpensePeriodMinutes>60</IncomeExpensePeriodMinutes>
    <InitialFactionPoints>(this number will correspond to how long a faction can remain with no other territories other than their home base system upon initially creating their faction and having all faction members offline)</InitialFactionPoints>
    </BasicValues>
    </FactionPointGeneral>

    <FactionPointIncome>
    <BasicValues>
    <GainedPerMember>(make this number negative, results in Faction point lose per hour per member)</GainedPerMember>
    <GainedPerOnlineMember>(counterbalancing number for online players)</GainedPerOnlineMember>
    </BasicValues>
    </FactionPointIncome>

    <FactionPointSpending>
    <BasicValues>
    <BasicFlatCost>1</BasicFlatCost>
    <SpentAbsoluteForDeath>(increasing this value increases points lost per death</SpentAbsoluteForDeath>
    <SpentForDeathMultByMemberCount>(changing this number will effect faction point loss for the bigger factions per member death)</SpentForDeathMultByMemberCount>
    <SpentPerControlledSystem>(make this negative, so that faction are forced to take other systems than their home base if they want to passively gain Faction point instead of being online all the time)</SpentPerControlledSystem>
    </BasicValues>
    </FactionPointSpending>


    The reason I didn't post the exact numbers is because it comes down to personal preference. But this faction point system, outlined above, revolves around controlling more systems than just your home base system if you want to generate faction point income without having someone on all the time. (as the home base system does not generate any faction points for being controlled) It also forces larger factions to claim more space to set off the faction point draining from the number of players they have. They lose more faction points per faction round (60 minutes, which can be edited) per member. Again to incentivize land grabbing. Because if they didn't they would lose faction points and risk going to 0 faction points and then having a vulnerable base. Which then resulted in a viable way to fight big factions because you could cut off all their faction point income if you removed their control on their systems. But the faction points were more important to the server as faction points determined how large a faction's capital ship could be and also how large the other ships in its fleet could be. (I know not everyone is a fan of ship limits, but that is just how I ran the server. You can run yours differently)
     
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    Blaza612

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    survival game first and wargame second.
    With the way development is going, it's no longer going to be just a survival, it's going to be more focused on the world creation and interacting with other players/factions, similar to EVE, which is why it's valid to use examples from EVE to implement these sort of features. And I'm not suggesting war-game either, again, this is simply for the sake of opening up war, which has been one of the most prominent things in Starmade history. In a living world, there will always be war, and with invulnerability, then a faction can store all of it's ships at a mega shipyard, thus negating the war entirely, they'll lose a few stations, but keep everything else. With invulnerability gone, then it'll remove the reason to store everything at one base and never lose it, thus allowing war to actually happen.

    I still think that this suggestion is not the best way to implement vulnerable stations but it definitely needs to be implemented in some form.
    This system may not seem perfect to you, but this is the best I can come up with, and so far, nobodies proposed any better systems, only saying no because they want invulnerability, or that it already exists. If there are any better systems to do this, then for the love of god, put them here so we can improve it, and make it a system that everyone can agree on. I'd rather not have to deal with "How about no?" and having to repeat myself.

    new player protection
    How about, when a new player joins a server, they get 24 hours of active time protection. So, after 24 hours of them being online (It can be over whatever time period, doesn't have to be consecutive), then they can be attacked, but until then, they are immortal to all other players. I actually quite like that. :p
     
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    With the way development is going, it's no longer going to be just a survival, it's going to be more focused on the world creation and interacting with other players/factions, similar to EVE, which is why it's valid to use examples from EVE to implement these sort of features. And I'm not suggesting war-game either, again, this is simply for the sake of opening up war, which has been one of the most prominent things in Starmade history. In a living world, there will always be war, and with invulnerability, then a faction can store all of it's ships at a mega shipyard, thus negating the war entirely, they'll lose a few stations, but keep everything else. With invulnerability gone, then it'll remove the reason to store everything at one base and never lose it, thus allowing war to actually happen.
    This system may not seem perfect to you, but this is the best I can come up with, and so far, nobodies proposed any better systems, only saying no because they want invulnerability, or that it already exists. If there are any better systems to do this, then for the love of god, put them here so we can improve it, and make it a system that everyone can agree on. I'd rather not have to deal with "How about no?" and having to repeat myself.
    How about, when a new player joins a server, they get 24 hours of active time protection. So, after 24 hours of them being online (It can be over whatever time period, doesn't have to be consecutive), then they can be attacked, but until then, they are immortal to all other players. I actually quite like that. :p
    For me it comes down to either making the base game more restrictive/ intense or just letting it have the capacity to become more restrictive/ intense by what is available to you on how you can change the server's files.

    I prefer to have the options for editing while the base game remains less intense/ less restricting. (remember many types of people play this game, and making it more restrictive/ intense really pushes many people away) You see what my point is? Yes maybe combat isn't perfect. But that is up to personal preference, and as such more options for easy customization of a server on the server's side should be had. Because each server should be able to feel unique with custom settings so that people with different objectives in the game can find the right server for themselves.
     

    Blaza612

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    For me it comes down to either making the base game more restrictive/ intense or just letting it have the capacity to become more restrictive/ intense by what is available to you on how you can change the server's files.

    I prefer to have the options for editing while the base game remains less intense/ less restricting. (remember many types of people play this game, and making it more restrictive/ intense really pushes many people away) You see what my point is? Yes maybe combat isn't perfect. But that is up to personal preference, and as such more options for easy customization of a server on the server's side should be had. Because each server should be able to feel unique with custom settings so that people with different objectives in the game can find the right server for themselves.
    Considering there a lot of numbers involved with this, it would be stupid to not have config settings for this. :p

    But at the moment, there's two distinct styles of play, survival, and creative. If you wish to play creative, then either Sing-player, servers with build sectors or build servers, and this means you don't consent to PvP, so you become a god. If you play survival, then you have to survive. It's not simply building, you're going up against everything that wants to kill you, and thus, you consent to PvP. If someone wants to be a miner, then that's played in survival, therefore, if someone wants to kill them, then there should be no restrictions to why they should be killed.
     
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    I made a similar post to this on this forum, people did not seem to like it:
    No. I don't think you should be able to completely, 100% kill everything a faction owns. That's ridiculous. It just makes the domination of established players over new players even more concrete. Players NEED a safe place to retreat to.
    you have no idea what you're talking about

    I support this idea 100%
    Why?
    1. A homebase is an i win button, if you get engaged in combat, jump to homebase and dock.
    2. Anything a Forward Operating Base or a Mining Outpost can do, a homebase can do, you only 1 one base, and that one base and everything docked to it is 100% immune to any kind of attack.
    3. People talk about ideas like this "making the domination of established players over new players game" guess what every PVP game has this, and look how successful PVP as a gamemode
    4. There is no such thing as griefing in a PVP game
    5. If you don't like PVP then go find a server that has PVE areas or is just PVE, nobody is forcing you to play on PVP servers
    6. New player that has had there assets wiped of the server by a PVP faction? this idea is good because it gives you some way of getting back on your feet.

    Anybody who disagrees with me, either has no idea about StarMade PVP or is just a carebear (as us eve players will call it)
     
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    Regarding pvp, Problem is that player interaction is extremly rare (we all know this) and if I come across another player I'd much rather chat to them than blow them up and get what might equate to 5-20 minutes worth of mining. There have been a lot good solutions suggested in these forums (hopefully some will be implemented). But thats just me.

    Im a big fan of territory gains/loss playing a huge part in faction point gains/loss and giving you the ability to lay 'siege' to a faction by taking their territory, until they've lost enough faction points to make their hombase vulnerable (or they could re-locate it, but has lot of cons)
     
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    nobody is forcing you to play on PVP servers
    Depends on the server. While Illusive was the biggest server regarding forumside factions, it had the effect, that a forumside faction, that didn't play there, was likely unnoticed/ignored. Illusive allowed PvP, with no PvE zones. Assume you are in control of a PvE faction, that wishes to get noticed at that time, what would you do?
     
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    The Home Base is the one thing that lets you work and sleep in peace. We are talking about one station in one sector in the whole galaxy.

    You can't be griefed in this game unless you opt out of using a Home Base "Nomade Style" or pop your head out when a hostile pays a visit.
    Not docking to a Home Base is also your choice and as a tip Derlict Stations make great Home Bases to start with. I always make sure i get the Home Base before i logoff on a new server. I find that some Rail docking blocks, Build block and Factions blocks should be part of the default start kit a long with more than one core.

    You also have plenty of tools to prevent someone from retreating to a Home Base in a fight. Stop effect, Jump inhibitor, Energy drain beam, Emp effect are just a few. And even then you just have to accept someone will try and run if facing defeat or a thougher enemy. I know i do! But there is always a next time. You should know then from the previous engagement how or try to deal with his ship.

    As an example i played some on the German FeedUpYourBeast server. They don't want one player factions. I allways play alone so i just said i'll try anyway. They would delete the one man faction on the first of every month. I got a massive base and ships and sure enough my faction got deleted so i just remade it and all was fine again. They then tried another tactic you lost more faction points then you gained as a one man faction. And sure enough i dropped in the negative and my neighbours wiped out the base and ships while i was offline.

    Again i fully knew and accepted this could happen. I wanted to try and see how bad it was. And it showed me that not having a Home Base just means you get wrecked.

    It also showed that whats beeing asked for is allready in the game. Any admin can set the faction points as they please higher kill lose, offline loss whatever. But i will never again play a server that won't let me sleep the time you need to invest to get your gear is simple to great.
     

    Blaza612

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    The Home Base is the one thing that lets you work and sleep in peace.
    It still will be, you'll just have to ensure that you make it safe overnight. Having it permanent is massively detrimental, if you try to go to war with someone, they'll be able to dock ALL of their ships to their homebase, which'll most likely be the only station they have, meaning you cannot attack them, whatsoever. There's no reason to undock your stuff from the homebase, because it'll never die if docked, thus making trying to go to war pointless, as you'll never be able to kill anything.

    in a fight
    We're not talking about a fight, we're talking about a war, which'll most likely begin before any engagement, meaning that by the time you even get to them, they'll already be all docked up.

    there is always a next time
    Same with docking up to the homebase.

    I got a massive base and ships and sure enough my faction got deleted so i just remade it and all was fine again.
    This is living proof, said by you, that losing your base didn't stop you, and in fact made you strive to try again,

    I wanted to try and see how bad it was.
    You persisted to see how their tactics fared, this is the most definitive proof that the majority of players will not rage-quit.


    Again i fully knew and accepted this could happen.
    That'll be the same with this, it wont be an out of the blue thin, where all of a sudden your base is obliterated, and you were never told it could happen, you would be told within the tutorial, or with the helper tooltips, so you know of the risk, and you know that you should proceed with caution, and actually prepare to not get your anal cavities filled. :p
     
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    It still will be, you'll just have to ensure that you make it safe overnight. Having it permanent is massively detrimental, if you try to go to war with someone, they'll be able to dock ALL of their ships to their homebase, which'll most likely be the only station they have, meaning you cannot attack them, whatsoever. There's no reason to undock your stuff from the homebase, because it'll never die if docked, thus making trying to go to war pointless, as you'll never be able to kill anything].


    I kill people just fine. And don't worry about them having a Home Base.

    We're not talking about a fight, we're talking about a war, which'll most likely begin before any engagement, meaning that by the time you even get to them, they'll already be all docked up.
    Again thats no problem they won't stay there foreever. And it's up to them not you or me how much they allow you to kill "undock".

    This is living proof, said by you, that losing your base didn't stop you, and in fact made you strive to try again,
    No i quit they first deleted my faction not my stuff. I could remake it and have Home Base protection before losing my stuff.

    You persisted to see how their tactics fared, this is the most definitive proof that the majority of players will not rage-quit.
    I did not persist after losing my stuff i quit because there was no longer a point to keep playing.
     

    Blaza612

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    I kill people just fine. And don't worry about them having a Home Base.
    But that's you flying around, killing anyone you find, not declaring war on them. There's a difference between a war, and killing some guy on your way to your local donut shop. :p

    Again thats no problem they won't stay there foreever. And it's up to them not you or me how much they allow you to kill "undock".
    But they will. That's the problem. If there is a prominent threat (By prominent, I mean another faction who wants to explicitly kill them) then they'll stay there until the war is declared over. IIRC, this exact thing has happened before, but someone correct me on that if I'm wrong. :p

    No i quit they first deleted my faction not my stuff. I could remake it and have Home Base protection before losing my stuff.
    Oh, welp...

    I did not persist after losing my stuff i quit because there was no longer a point to keep playing.
    Once more stuff is added in, then there'll much more of a reason to keep playing. ATM, the game doesn't have nearly as many of the features that'll be coming later on, which'll provide a continuous reason to play, even after losing all your stuff. Either that, or you're part of the <1%. :p
     

    Lecic

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    Because, as a final place to fall back to, I can feasibly store 90 percent of a faction's fleet power and keep it invulnerable. All bunched together at one station means you'll never really manage to catch them docking and undocking but they can in turn catch your vulnerable stations whenever they find them.

    I still think that this suggestion is not the best way to implement vulnerable stations but it definitely needs to be implemented in some form.
    We're not talking about a fight, we're talking about a war, which'll most likely begin before any engagement, meaning that by the time you even get to them, they'll already be all docked up.
    You guys are still looking at things through the lens of the current meta. The future gameplay is going to be about larger, partially AI controlled fleets defending a wide number of your own stations outside the HB.

    Imagine you're fighting a war in medieval times, and the enemy king pulls their entire population into a giant castle you can't break into. Do you just sit outside the walls of the castle, complain a bit, and go home? Or do you decide that now that they have no army or anyone anywhere, now is the perfect time for you to burn down literally everything else in that king's territory?
     

    Nauvran

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    You guys are still looking at things through the lens of the current meta. The future gameplay is going to be about larger, partially AI controlled fleets defending a wide number of your own stations outside the HB.

    Imagine you're fighting a war in medieval times, and the enemy king pulls their entire population into a giant castle you can't break into. Do you just sit outside the walls of the castle, complain a bit, and go home? Or do you decide that now that they have no army or anyone anywhere, now is the perfect time for you to burn down literally everything else in that king's territory?
    I smell barbecue. It smells good.