Read by Council Make Homebases Vulnerable, Without Losing Everything

[nightwalker_007]

The problem with Eve Online, and why I no longer play (I've logged well over 1k hours in that game.. actually I stopped playing the steam version, so I lost count after 600 hours), is, in factions, the game moves from being fun to being too much like work. Having to log in all the time, and make sure your bases are safe. I sure as hell don't want to check my station every 4 hours, because I have a life, and I work.

It is irresponsible to make a game that compels players to log in constantly to play. Eve Online does this get people addicted to the game so they can soak users for subscription fees, and what not.

Starmade is not, and will never be Eve Online... unless they start a monthly subscription service and have payer skills that are developed over time based purely on how long you've had a blasted user account.

 

[Blaza612]

The problem with Eve Online, and why I no longer play (I've logged well over 1k hours in that game.. actually I stopped playing the steam version, so I lost count after 600 hours), is, in factions, the game moves from being fun to being too much like work. Having to log in all the time, and make sure your bases are safe. I sure as hell don't want to check my station every 4 hours, because I have a life, and I work.

It is irresponsible to make a game that compels players to log in constantly to play. Eve Online does this get people addicted to the game so they can soak users for subscription fees, and what not.

Starmade is not, and will never be Eve Online... unless they start a monthly subscription service and have payer skills that are developed over time based purely on how long you've had a blasted user account.

I'm not trying to turn this game into EVE, you don't need to log in every 4 hours, that's a bare minimum. Hell, if you only log in for a few hours, play something else for a month or two and come back, then you're homebase will still be protected, as you'll need to have been online for 24 hours in order for it to have the vulnerability stuff.

Not only that, but we're having to trade off the possibilities of war and such, which have proven to be Starmade's most prominent aspect, just so that people don't have to look after their base. At the moment, the only thing that'd be bringing you back would be having to keep your home alive, but in the near future, with the many updates that'll be coming out soon, there will be so many more reasons to keep playing, Schine is trying to create a living world, thus you'll be sucked in via everything else that'll be around to dick with, rather than having to look after your home.

 

[DeltaEpsilon7787]

Here's my simple solution: maintenance.

Basically homebases should have native credit storage. Homebases are invincible if they have enough credits to pay for each damage unit inflicted.

Basically the system philosophy goes like that:
1. There must be at least one faction member who logged in half an hour ago to make their homebase consume credits. It will prevent players to destroy homebases while faction members are offline yet also preventing losing faction members to log off and wait until the attack is gone.
2. The amount of credits consumed each time depends on combined mass of a homebase (including docked entities, cargo and stuff) and damage inflicted. Amount should grow exponentially with mass and linearly with damage. That will allow bigger factions to not care about little fly attacking their base as they have vastly more resources. On the other hand it will prevent developing factions from being utterly destroyed by random people. We all know that we shouldn't fly something that we can't afford to replace.
3. All faction members must be notified of their homebase being under attack. They will get who's attacking and amount of credits they lost during first attack and amount of credits left in storage. If attacker used even bigger weapon, faction members must be notified again and state a bigger sum of credits. Only evergrowing credits lost due to certain players should be reported. Everything will be reset after an hour since attack has been stopped.
By doing that relatively complex operation, we can notify faction members about enemy attacking and evaluate whether they should worry or not (amount of credits lost / amount of credits left)

I am done here. Hope I covered everything.

 

[Blaza612]

Here's my simple solution: maintenance.

Basically homebases should have native credit storage. Homebases are invincible if they have enough credits to pay for each damage unit inflicted.

Basically the system philosophy goes like that:
1. There must be at least one faction member who logged in half an hour ago to make their homebase consume credits. It will prevent players to destroy homebases while faction members are offline yet also preventing losing faction members to log off and wait until the attack is gone.
2. The amount of credits consumed each time depends on combined mass of a homebase (including docked entities, cargo and stuff) and damage inflicted. Amount should grow exponentially with mass and linearly with damage. That will allow bigger factions to not care about little fly attacking their base as they have vastly more resources. On the other hand it will prevent developing factions from being utterly destroyed by random people. We all know that we shouldn't fly something that we can't afford to replace.
3. All faction members must be notified of their homebase being under attack. They will get who's attacking and amount of credits they lost during first attack and amount of credits left in storage. If attacker used even bigger weapon, faction members must be notified again and state a bigger sum of credits. Only evergrowing credits lost due to certain players should be reported. Everything will be reset after an hour since attack has been stopped.
By doing that relatively complex operation, we can notify faction members about enemy attacking and evaluate whether they should worry or not (amount of credits lost / amount of credits left)

I am done here. Hope I covered everything.

The problem with credits, is that you can get an obscene amount of them, even if 1 credit = 1 point of damage. I've kind of abandoned this suggestion, but coming back to it, I've realized I managed to over-complicate it. It'd be much better if it was just a matter of the homebase being vulnerable whenever 25% of a faction is online. There would be more details, but that's the general jiste of that idea.

 

[DeltaEpsilon7787]

The problem with credits, is that you can get an obscene amount of them, even if 1 credit = 1 point of damage

That's why mass of homebase makes exponential growth. It tries to keep in pace with players.
There needs to be some difficult balancing but still it doesn't mean it's impossible.

So basically

even if 1 credit = 1 point of damage

is not all. You pay for mass too and pay most of your money for mass protected.

 

[Lecic]

Here's my simple solution: maintenance.

Basically homebases should have native credit storage. Homebases are invincible if they have enough credits to pay for each damage unit inflicted.

Basically the system philosophy goes like that:
1. There must be at least one faction member who logged in half an hour ago to make their homebase consume credits. It will prevent players to destroy homebases while faction members are offline yet also preventing losing faction members to log off and wait until the attack is gone.
2. The amount of credits consumed each time depends on combined mass of a homebase (including docked entities, cargo and stuff) and damage inflicted. Amount should grow exponentially with mass and linearly with damage. That will allow bigger factions to not care about little fly attacking their base as they have vastly more resources. On the other hand it will prevent developing factions from being utterly destroyed by random people. We all know that we shouldn't fly something that we can't afford to replace.
3. All faction members must be notified of their homebase being under attack. They will get who's attacking and amount of credits they lost during first attack and amount of credits left in storage. If attacker used even bigger weapon, faction members must be notified again and state a bigger sum of credits. Only evergrowing credits lost due to certain players should be reported. Everything will be reset after an hour since attack has been stopped.
By doing that relatively complex operation, we can notify faction members about enemy attacking and evaluate whether they should worry or not (amount of credits lost / amount of credits left)

I am done here. Hope I covered everything.

"Our intel suggests Jim's Faction is going to attack us tonight. Guess we just won't log in today!"

Any suggestion that revolves around being able to attack the base, but only while people are online, encourages not playing the game. The game should not encourage people to not play.

 

[nightrune]

Any suggestion that revolves around being able to attack the base, but only while people are online, encourages not playing the game. The game should not encourage people to not play.

This is a great point, but it should also not punish me for having a life outside the game.

 

[SkylordLuke]

you guys are beating the dead horse.
the "FP" "faction points" system will solve this
And will be even more interactive with the future upgrade updates.

Basically,you accumulate FP and expand the territory (along with few others hush hush places to earn them and spend)
When you lose FP (when you lose territory and all accumulated FP there is lost) or you lose FP in other places.
Once its overall drained below a certain threshold your homebase becomes vulnerable

so basically you need to attack outposts,destroy bases around before you can attack the homebase.
gives it a nice strategic gameplay element.

 

[Lecic]

This is a great point, but it should also not punish me for having a life outside the game.

I agree. That's why I don't think the HB should ever be vulnerable in the vanilla configs.

 

[Lord_Greyscale]

While giving people the ability to blow up newbies isn't exactly good, it isn't entirely bad either.

Bullshit.
You DO realize the fastest way to lose a potential new player, is to have all his/her stuff obliterated within the first week?
That's called "negative reinforcement" and it rewards effort with PAIN.

If I wanted PAIN, I'd either visit a dominatrix, or Play co-op BATTLETOADS (with it's un-failing ability to crash the game, due to the co-op player start not existing for about half the levels) Or play ET for the Atari.

Any of those would still be more fun than build a base, and it's all dust on the wind when you awaken next morning.

Keeping newbies all protected with infinite amounts of pillows, is bad. Not having any interaction or any threat will make the game less entertaining, and will ultimately bore them.

That much is true, Infinite protection leads to a total "why should I care" attitude. (and, it allso leads to the "everyone's a winner" mentality that is slowly killing the USA)
The isn't any one "perfect" solution to this particular dilemma, because people are people. Each one of us is at least a little different from the next one, and will look at, focus on, and complain about different things. (Oh, and most of us learn a little differently too, but Schools and Cororations really don't want to admit that)

By allowing them to have the threat form the start of the game, they aren't going to complain, they're going to set up defenses and actually care about their base. Some will rage-quit, most will strive to do better.

Let's look at this from Single-player, since that's simply the easiest to start the game with.

The threat IS constantly there. If you are unlucky, the sector adjacent to 2,2,2 could contain a Pirate Station DELTA or, worse, a Pirate Station ALPHA.

Let's assume the pirates aren't quite that close. (as said, that's with just terrible luck, it's only happened to me once out of the 50 or so Universii I've made)

I've run into more than one situation where I run away from the Pirates, thought I got clear, and then died at 2,2,2 cause the pirates followed me there. They then sat there, just outside the sector, constantly shooting me.

The entire reason I didn't rage-quit, is thanks to being familiar with Minecraft (thus, NOT a True-Newb), I knew that I was the Admin, and so merely needed to learn the code to kill those pirates.

The True-Newb players Don't know this, and likely won't care to learn this.
The hardcore types you're so fond of? They probably won't like it either, because with pirates camping spawn, you can't get enough resources to build anything to kill them.

Ultimately, throwing newbies into the world, where anything can kill them, will actually help with retention, and you'll find that those who rage-quit are in the minority. In EVE (Yes, I'm referring to it because the did a study on this EXACT thing) it was shown that <1% of newbies who were killed within the first 24 hours of EVE, actually ended up rage-quitting, while the rest stayed longer and enjoyed the game more than those who hadn't been killed within the first 24 hours.

Useless factoid is Completely useless.
EVE online is not about making your own starship. EVE online is "ALL PVP, ALL THE FUCKING TIME" and actively pisses on the newbies.
(in EVE, it does this by making any vessel bigger than a destroyer practically impossible to obtain without the backing of a hundred other players, and it's titans? straight up impossible to acquire on one's lonesome.)
It is the game for Masochists, the people who enjoy pain. And they have to pay a subscription fee for the privilege of getting their teeth smashed in by other people.
That is it's entire selling point. Anyone thinking otherwise is an idiot.

Now, StarMade is at it's core? Mostly about building the damnned ships. And designing them. And then, as a distant third, it is about testing them. The easiest, most comprehensive testing? is by fighting them.

EVE online? You can't actually build your ship from the frame out like you can in StarMade. (hell, it's ability to customize is sorely lacking by comparison. In StarMade, I could, say, sacrifice all the other weaponry to make a Spinal Laser have more available power. I can't do that in EVE, heck, I don't think EVE even has Spinal weaponry of the "60% of the ship is this one gun" variety.)


EVE and StarMade are such different games, that it enrages me every single time I see someone comparing the two and then saying the mechanics of one belong in the other.

If you want to play EVE so badly, go play EVE.
Quit trying to turn StarMade into EVE 2.0

OFF-TOPIC: One thing that I'd imagine happening, is that small factions (that of 1 or 2 members) would most likely end up being nomads, since a faction of 1 - 2 people isn't exactly a faction. Maybe we should have some sort of buffs for nomadic groups that are small, which'll allow them to survive the mega-factions, since not only will they not have a mega obvious homebase, but they'll also be constantly on the move, etc. etc.

Only from a certain point of view. (and that veiw being HARDCORE PVP ALL THE TIME)
The Biggest diference between StarMade factions, and EVE Factions?
The original intended usage.

EVE's usage has allways been a matter of "red versus Blue", but with whatever names you feel like using. It is a way to keep score, and not much else.
StarMade's usage has been, and likely shall remain, "prevent the assholes from using my stuff" It can allso be used to keep score, but anyone who is wanting to keep score will probably invent their own way to do so.
(EX: I'm personally quite fond of Comparative Mass killing, was I in the smaller ship? kill counts for more, Etc, Etc,)

Now, functionally? Aye, it's the same system, and is likely why it is so hard for you to grasp that they aren't being used the same way.


And wow, this should not have taken me 3 hours to type out. I excized quite a few tangents, so I'm apologizing right now for any, oddities, floating around.

 

[Heillos]

I agree. That's why I don't think the HB should ever be vulnerable in the vanilla configs.

This, tbh. At present, I'd say the homebase is too strong for what it is, but with appropriate balancing all-round, so that there are limits on what the HB can do, and other stations can be actually defended (rather than being easily killable regardless of one's efforts), then there should be no reason for the HB to ever be vulnerable. Players need a safe point at which to cower when all else is lost.

you guys are beating the dead horse.
the "FP" "faction points" system will solve this
And will be even more interactive with the future upgrade updates.

Basically,you accumulate FP and expand the territory (along with few others hush hush places to earn them and spend)
When you lose FP (when you lose territory and all accumulated FP there is lost) or you lose FP in other places.
Once its overall drained below a certain threshold your homebase becomes vulnerable

so basically you need to attack outposts,destroy bases around before you can attack the homebase.
gives it a nice strategic gameplay element.

Do you think that, in the case of homebases becoming more limited (by making the mass of ships they can protect proportional to the FP a faction has, perhaps? Also preventing the homebase from being the station to grant any mining bonus or similar, requiring other, vulnerable stations for such action), there would still be a need to attack and destroy a faction's homebase?

It's interesting that you imply that we'd be "investing" FP into territory ("when you lose the territory and all accumulated FP there is lost"), and presumably reaping some form of benefit from that. I hope that plans are under consideration to buff stations, or add some other mechanic which will make destroying an enemy's bases more challenging than it is in the current state of the game.

I'd also like to know if alternative FP mechanics are under consideration; Nuclear Doughnut's plans for the EE2 config involve claiming systems as a way to earn FP, with players and other potential mechanics being a drain/sink for it, and as far as I'm aware, many players think quite highly of this idea, myself included.

 

[Blaza612]

you guys are beating the dead horse.
the "FP" "faction points" system will solve this
And will be even more interactive with the future upgrade updates.

Basically,you accumulate FP and expand the territory (along with few others hush hush places to earn them and spend)
When you lose FP (when you lose territory and all accumulated FP there is lost) or you lose FP in other places.
Once its overall drained below a certain threshold your homebase becomes vulnerable

so basically you need to attack outposts,destroy bases around before you can attack the homebase.
gives it a nice strategic gameplay element.

There is a reason I abandoned this suggestion. :p

However, one has provoked, and as such, I'd like to retaliate, thus replying must happen.

EVE online is "ALL PVP, ALL THE FUCKING TIME"

You don't seem to know EVE, do you? It's an alive world, it's one built by the community, and is truly alive. The PvP all the time, is what happens when you're bad and wreckless. :p

(in EVE, it does this by making any vessel bigger than a destroyer practically impossible to obtain without the backing of a hundred other players, and it's titans? straight up impossible to acquire on one's lonesome.)

Why do I have a feeling that you managed to get a destroyer after playing for a couple of hours, got wreckless, lost your ship, and rage-quitted? That seems to be the vibe I'm getting from you, I've successfully managed to get up to Battlecruisers as well as faction Cruisers, while mostly alone.

It is the game for Masochists, the people who enjoy pain. And they have to pay a subscription fee for the privilege of getting their teeth smashed in by other people.

You REALLY don't know anything about EVE do you?

That is it's entire selling point.

Nope

Anyone thinking otherwise is an idiot.

Me thinks it's the other way around.

Now, StarMade is at it's core? Mostly about building the damnned ships. And designing them. And then, as a distant third, it is about testing them. The easiest, most comprehensive testing? is by fighting them.

You don't know about Starmade's future do you? It's going to a game in which it's worlds are alive. Do you see any similarities to EVE? Starmade at the moment is a building game due to it's current lack of mechanics/content, but in the future, the devs want to make it a truly alive world, with evolving factions, NPC factions, procedurally generated factions, stories, more items, economy, empire building, etc.

(hell, it's ability to customize is sorely lacking by comparison. In StarMade, I could, say, sacrifice all the other weaponry to make a Spinal Laser have more available power. I can't do that in EVE, heck, I don't think EVE even has Spinal weaponry of the "60% of the ship is this one gun" variety.)

EVE actually has quite a lot of customization, while that may be limited to functional shit, rather than cosmetic, there are a LOT of options for ships. For example, a destroyer could be fit out as a salvager, a suicide ganker, a miner (not recommended :p), etc.

I don't think EVE even has Spinal weaponry of the "60% of the ship is this one gun" variety

You REAAAAAALY don't know about EVE, thus, you have no right to speak on behalf of it or about it.

EVE and StarMade are such different games, that it enrages me every single time I see someone comparing the two and then saying the mechanics of one belong in the other.

You don't seem to understand, do you? Starmade is becoming an alive universe, and EVE has many mechanics, that when manipulated, will quite simply work with Starmade. And there really isn't a problem with it, you're just getting butthurt because you hate EVE for some unknown reason. Ripping mechanics from different games is fine as long as we manipulate and design them to work with what the games wants to be, and in this case, it's future updates.

If you want to play EVE so badly, go play EVE.
Quit trying to turn StarMade into EVE 2.0

This where I have the biggest problem, I am NOT, let me repeat, NOT trying to turn Starmade into EVE. It's a massive waste of effort, since EVE is currently a thing. There are certain mechanics and such that can work well from Starmade, it's not like I exclusively get mechanics from EVE, I get them from anywhere.

Only from a certain point of view. (and that veiw being HARDCORE PVP ALL THE TIME)

Now you're just openly insulting me. Seriously, GTFO, there's no need for this.

EVE's usage has allways been a matter of "red versus Blue", but with whatever names you feel like using. It is a way to keep score, and not much else.

You have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what you're talking about, STOP, you're making yourself look like an idiot. :p

StarMade's usage has been, and likely shall remain, "prevent the assholes from using my stuff" It can allso be used to keep score, but anyone who is wanting to keep score will probably invent their own way to do so.

You STILL have no idea what you're talking about, even when it comes to Starmade. It's like actual wars in EVE, they start the same ways and for the same reasons, and are played out the same, it's not because you want to hoard all of your creations for yourself.

Now, functionally? Aye, it's the same system, and is likely why it is so hard for you to grasp that they aren't being used the same way.

Now you're just insulting my intelligence, which is ironic considering the fact that you have no idea what you're talking about. Seriously, stop. I never wanted this thread to continue, and now you've decided to openly flame/insult me. You're making yourself look like a complete moron, now GTFO, and let this damn thread die. Schine already knows how they're going to do this, no point in arguing over this.

 

[Lecic]

You don't seem to understand, do you? Starmade is becoming an alive universe, and EVE has many mechanics, that when manipulated, will quite simply work with Starmade. And there really isn't a problem with it, you're just getting butthurt because you hate EVE for some unknown reason. Ripping mechanics from different games is fine as long as we manipulate and design them to work with what the games wants to be, and in this case, it's future updates.

Yes, and being able to destroy homebases is not a mechanic we should be stealing.

Now you're just openly insulting me. Seriously, GTFO, there's no need for this.

Me thinks it's the other way around.

Why do I have a feeling that you managed to get a destroyer after playing for a couple of hours, got wreckless, lost your ship, and rage-quitted? That seems to be the vibe I'm getting from you,

you're making yourself look like an idiot. :p

you're making yourself look like a complete moron

 

[Blaza612]

Yes, and being able to destroy homebases is not a mechanic we should be stealing.

Touche, but please, elaborate. :p

After your elaboration, could we please let this thread die? Again, I abandoned it for a reason.
[DOUBLEPOST=1455005556,1455005377][/DOUBLEPOST]

Yes, and being able to destroy homebases is not a mechanic we should be stealing.

Forgot to add this: It being a bad idea isn't the part I have a problem with, it's the fact he got so butthurt over me using something from EVE, and insulting me over it.

 

[Lecic]

Touche, but please, elaborate. :p

I don't think that will be necessary. The post speaks for itself.

 

[Blaza612]

I don't think that will be necessary. The post speaks for itself.

Lecic, my apologies, I was being a massive derp, and was too lazy to correct that. :p

Yeah, there's a difference to me saying he's making himself look like an idiot, and he IS an idiot. Me saying he's looking like one, is a more critical way of saying that he's being silly. I'm not saying he is ACTUALLY an idiot, I'm just saying that he's being silly, in a more critical way as more critical things tend to get their attention better.

NOTE: Not dictionary definitions or whatever, going off of experience and how most people have reacted/seen it. :p