Power System Overhaul Proposal

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    DukeofRealms

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    DukeofRealms this is why pvp players get mad on the forums.
    You're going to need to put @ before my name to get my attention, instead of linking it. Otherwise, the chance of me seeing it in this mass of posts is unlikely.

    And i'm sure there are plenty more out there. Why are the mods totally fine with this misinformation being propagated, but crack down on worthwhile discussion just because it's a little harsh? If you're eliminating the people who make good posts instead of the people who spread nonsense and clog up discussion with realism and sci fi arguments while having no experience with the actual game part, is that really beneficial for the forums?
    Why? The thread was 6 or 7 pages long when I got to see it, only a couple of hours after it being posted. I got plenty of reports that there were posts that were not adhering to the request for civility in the thread, so, I locked the thread and removed the offending posts. Those who had posts removed were notified. Under normal circumstances, posts that had valid content in them would have been edited. Unfortunately, I'm not going to edit 20 posts; I don't have the time for that. Two posts requested that I edit them and undelete it, I did.

    Now that this thread is out of control, I can't read the posts fast enough, and there are no reports on offending posts. I have work to do; I don't have the time to go over all these posts. As for the moderators, if you don't report it, it's going to be hard for them to keep an eye out.

    Anyway, I need to get back to working on Schine material, I've put enough input here :)
     
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    People seem to be drifting off to their own imagined reasons for this being proposed, and then getting upset about those imagined reasons.

    To remind everyone, the reasons for this proposal were to find solutions to:

    1. Forced design choices
    2. Lack of complexity
    3. Too many blocks involved (number, not types)
    4. Focused on regen

    Nothing else.
     

    Raisinbat

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    I fail to see how these must be mutually exclusion in something virtual creatively designed by humans. I doubt this is dictated by the laws of computing and imagination.
    Group 1 wants to have a system where X is a variable
    Group 2 wants to have a system where X is not a variable

    This is very obviously not possible. Just replace X with ship systems, and you're done.
     

    nightrune

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    Group 1 wants to have a system where X is a variable
    Group 2 wants to have a system where X is not a variable

    This is very obviously not possible. Just replace X with ship systems, and you're done.
    Variable or viable?
     
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    Really tired of people who just build RP ships talking about the PvP scene like they know anything about it beyond a few lines of chat they read in 2014 about cubes being OP.

    Let me make this absolutely clear, under no uncertain terms, to anyone reading this-

    CUBES ARE NOT OVERPOWERED AND ARE ACTUALLY A TERRIBLE CHOICE OF SHIP SHAPE IN THE MODERN META.



    As for your question, the thing is that the sheer effectiveness of minmax builds means that builds that keep visuals in mind rapidly become inconsequential without some serverside rule against minmax. Bridging the gap between minmax and RP means that at the very least players won't lose as much if they choose to make their ships a bit more aesthetics-oriented.
     
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    As for your question, the thing is that the sheer effectiveness of minmax builds means that builds that keep visuals in mind rapidly become inconsequential without some serverside rule against minmax. Bridging the gap between minmax and RP means that at the very least players won't lose as much if they choose to make their ships a bit more aesthetics-oriented.
    As far as I can see, no-one from Schine has stated that there's any desire to "bridge the gap between minmax and RP".
     

    Raisinbat

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    Variable or viable?
    Okay, one last time.

    PVP players want their systems to affect how their ships work. They want to optimize their builds to get more power out of them. It's how we have fun.

    RP players do NOT want their systems to affect how their ships work, because that limits their creative freedom. They create their ships to look a certain way or to mimic some sci fi show, and get upset when the game's mechanics don't accomodate that.

    So one side wants mechanics to matter and the other side doesn't want mechanics to matter. There is no middle ground.

    As for your question, the thing is that the sheer effectiveness of minmax builds means that builds that keep visuals in mind rapidly become inconsequential without some serverside rule against minmax. Bridging the gap between minmax and RP means that at the very least players won't lose as much if they choose to make their ships a bit more aesthetics-oriented.
    I just gave you three examples of ships with huge interiors that are effective PVP ships. The mechanical "gap" between ships with large interior and ones without is minimal; what you're talking about is your own incompetence as a builder. You suck, therefor your ships suck.
     
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    Yes, the devs HAVE done a lot of work balancing the systems in this game, so that makes me think- why are they throwing it all away for a system that probably isn't even necessary?
    It's not necessary from the position of a space-ship fighting simulator, but then neither is planets, nor stars, nor teleporters, nor creatures, nor npc factions, nor space stations, nor factories, nor logic. That is why this game isn't defined as a space-ship fighting simulator, it's "The ultimate space sandbox." (According to the steam page)

    As for balancing, that's the reason this thread exists, and why the devs are taking their sweet time with these updates.

    I do want this game to have balanced, interesting, and varied combat, but I also want the building to be interesting and varied. This system seems to be a middle ground.

    I play the game to make effective combat ships

    This idiot wants to standardize combat effectiveness across all ships so RP players aren't disadvantages for being terrible because they're incompetent gameplay communists who thinks all ships should be equal.

    How am i going to make effective combat ships when that's literally impossible?
    Mate, I'm not trying to insult you, so don't insult me. I want to enjoy this game as much as you do, and I don't see how this system will make it worse off for you.

    From what I know, the current power system alone is by no means the most integral part of combat effectiveness. It's the balance between armor, shields, weapons, thrust, and the mass and power that they use determines how effective a ship is. One possible path the devs may take, the one I'm assuming you're arguing against, is that the power may become standardized so that the mass of the power system becomes constant. The balancing of the other systems will still be around, but if you don't think that's enough, by all means convince us. Convince us that the power system should depend on the number of blocks and the mass or geometry of the system in some way that would make it as important as the current system for combat.

    If I'm wrong here, don't insult my intelligence, enlighten me, tell me where I'm wrong and give reasons for it.
     
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    As far as I can see, no-one from Schine has stated that there's any desire to "bridge the gap between minmax and RP".
    It's not stated directly, but it's kind of a side effect of this proposed power system overhaul. The overhaul will nerf system-heavy ships more than interior-heavy ships, indirectly making the power gap between minmax and RP smaller.
     

    Lecic

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    No, the meta shape is not triangles either. You don't understand anything about PvP in this game, so stop trying to change it, and stop pretending like you do.

    As for your question, the thing is that the sheer effectiveness of minmax builds means that builds that keep visuals in mind rapidly become inconsequential without some serverside rule against minmax. Bridging the gap between minmax and RP means that at the very least players won't lose as much if they choose to make their ships a bit more aesthetics-oriented.
    RE: You don't understand anything about PvP in this game

    You are perfectly capable of fitting good visuals into a build that is also minmaxed in this game. I do it all the time. Every ship I fly is both mixmaxed and good looking. The only "gap" between PvP and RP in this game that needs to be bridged is a necessity for larger interiors to accommodate crew, which crew needing living spaces and work stations accomplishes and is the only thing necessary to do so. The energy replacement system being proposed is not necessary for that.

    The reason many PvP ships are ugly and featureless is not out of necessity. It is because the person who built the ship is either lazy or lacks artistic ability. If a PvP builder attempts to convince you that it is impossible to make good looking ship that is also heavily mixmaxed and competitive, they are either
    a) lying to you
    b) lying to themselves
    c) someone who has not played the game since 2014
    d) all of the above.
     
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    nightrune

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    Okay, one last time.
    PVP players want their systems to affect how their ships work. They want to optimize their builds to get more power out of them. It's how we have fun.

    RP players do NOT want their systems to affect how their ships work, because that limits their creative freedom. They create their ships to look a certain way or to mimic some sci fi show, and get upset when the game's mechanics don't accomodate that.
    I just asked about a typo.

    I think that's a horrible assumption. I want to do both, and I think you should be able to. I see no reason why consolidating power into smaller sections will limit your ability to min max. In fact I think it'll be easier as there is likely less need to refit large sections of ships later on or to find the random power line and where it went when you rip it out. It just changes how you go about min maxing, I'd actually like more ways to min max. I can state it again. I think this system might unify the stealth mechanics and the universe mechanics together. That's overall more fun. You could kite someone to a sector where they can't deal with the heat anymore. You can target areas and destroy the large reactor. That's what I think the point of the thread is. Right now we have some semblance of it for power regen and capacity.
     
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    I just gave you three examples of ships with huge interiors that are effective PVP ships. The mechanical "gap" between ships with large interior and ones without is minimal; what you're talking about is your own incompetence as a builder. You suck, therefor your ships suck.
    Let's not delve into personal insults here.
     
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    It's not stated directly, but it's kind of a side effect of this proposed power system overhaul. The overhaul will nerf system-heavy ships more than interior-heavy ships, indirectly making the power gap between minmax and RP smaller.
    I'm 100% certain that if this proposal was implemented tomorrow, within the first week we'd already see a very clear distinction in style between RP and PvP ships.
     

    Lecic

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    How about this for an idea? All systems groups slowly degrade in effectiveness and need NPCs to access them to maintain them. NPCs also need bunks, food, recreation, and medical services. This forces a need for interior, and that interior actually has a purpose, instead of "I guess I can fill this empty space my reactor requires me to have with NPC rooms." This will also have the added effect of spreading the interior out through the whole ship, instead of just being centralized in the empty space around reactors! Awesome. You can all have you functional reactor core rooms, AND you'll get functional weapon maintenance hallways, engine repair rooms, shield generator engineering rooms, all that stuff.
     
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    RP players do NOT want their systems to affect how their ships work, because that limits their creative freedom. They create their ships to look a certain way or to mimic some sci fi show, and get upset when the game's mechanics don't accomodate that.
    That's not how I build, and I consider myself a RP player. When I build a ship, I do want to make it look a certain way, but I also want it to actually do something. The difficulty in figuring out what functionality I can add to the shape I want to build is a challenge that makes building interesting.
     
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    I'm totally on board with revamping the power systems! Almost any other minigame I can think of would better then the current minigame of running a mess of spaghetti noodle power lines through a ship, and then cramming a giant capacitor tank inside. Anything that makes the game more interesting, and adds more interesting choices I'll be solidly behind.

    The two things that I need to hand wave away with Starmade is the power reactor system and how the best ships are literally solid chunks of systems.

    I do have reservations on your heat-box idea, I'd worry it could be too restrictive on being creative with a ship's overall shape. However, depending on options for mitigating heat, that may or may not be an actual concern, if one can add enough cooling systems to a reactor to collapse the heat zone to within a few blocks of the reactor, it would be a non issue. I do really like the idea of adding mechanics to encourage players to design complete reactor that in turn need to be protected and cooled.

    A balance between forcing a heat box, and just making system crammed ships automatically and decisively better would be to tie heat dissipation to the exterior and interior surface area of blocks next to empty space. Ships with a more open design could dissipate heat more easily and require less cooling systems, but solid ships could devote more systems to heat dissipation and retain a higher efficiency by size in exchange for more more expensive and possibly more vulnerable heat dissipation systems. Yes, I know this system could be open for misuse by simply having long empty hallways added to a ship, but they'd still be trading potential blocks for easier heat dissipation. Finally, how the heat exclusion zones of turrets with on board reactors and shipboard reactors interact would need to be figured out.

    Another question to ask is if and how does heat effect rail systems, or cargo systems? If heat does not affect cargo/rail, the heat exclusion zone on a ship would be a great place for a cargo bay or hangar/flight deck.

    One could also have different tiers of power generation blocks, starting with easily crafted solar panels, to fission, to fusion, to Matter/Antimatter, to artificial singularities and zero point energy modules depending on how many scifi power generation tropes one would wish to bring into SM. The more powerful power modules would obviously require more resources, but then have other attributes that would make them better/worse for different ship sizes.

    There also has to be some in game way to tell what kind of power generation you'll get at what levels of heat production. While I'm sure it's possible, I can't think of a good way to completely remove the energy per second stat from the player hud in build mode and still have the information one would need to build an efficient ship.

    To be completely transparent personally, this system would work great in how I already build ships. I tend to build in the zone between pure RP ship and killer PVP ship. All my ships have a few small decks of interesting crew related rooms to wander through, and simply shifting the decorative reactors I already have forward and into the middle of my engineering deck and reworking that deck would make my ships if not easy, at least straightforward, to convert to the proposed changes.

    I supposes the big question is if the current difference in performance between pure solid PVP ships and RP ships is desirable or not? I personally find RP ships far more interesting than PVP monsters. I'm not entirely convinced adding a small to medium amount of interior really hurts your ship all that much, even under the current system. Finally, If building ships in this game was simply just an exercise in man/maxing a stat line, I would have quite playing a long long time ago.
     
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    How about this for an idea? All systems groups slowly degrade in effectiveness and need NPCs to access them to maintain them. NPCs also need bunks, food, recreation, and medical services. This forces a need for interior, and that interior actually has a purpose, instead of "I guess I can fill this empty space my reactor requires me to have with NPC rooms." This will also have the added effect of spreading the interior out through the whole ship, instead of just being centralized in the empty space around reactors! Awesome. You can all have you functional reactor core rooms, AND you'll get functional weapon maintenance hallways, engine repair rooms, shield generator engineering rooms, all that stuff.
    It works but it sounds much more difficult from the point of view of the devs.

    And speaking only for myself, I don't ever want to *have* to build interiors. I build a bridge, and that's it.
     
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    No, the meta shape is not triangles either. You don't understand anything about PvP in this game, so stop trying to change it, and stop pretending like you do.
    I'm not trying to lmao


    RE: You don't understand anything about PvP in this game

    You are perfectly capable of fitting good visuals into a build that is also minmaxed in this game. I do it all the time. Every ship I fly is both mixmaxed and good looking. The only "gap" between PvP and RP in this game that needs to be bridged is a necessity for larger interiors to accommodate crew, which crew needing living spaces and work stations accomplishes and is the only thing necessary to do so. The energy replacement system being proposed is not necessary for that.

    The reason many PvP ships are ugly and featureless is not out of necessity. It is because the person who built the ship is either lazy or lacks artistic ability. If a PvP builder attempts to convince you that it is impossible to make good looking ship that is also heavily mixmaxed and competitive, they are either
    a) lying to you
    b) lying to themselves
    c) someone who has not played the game since 2014
    d) all of the above.
    Yeah, I'm not gonna try to deny that I barely know anything about the competitive PVP scene. The image just seemed like a funny idea at the time.

    In any case, I'm sure there are good looking, combat-effective ships out there - however, I've seen a lot of deathbricks on a number of servers, which has skewed my opinion by quite a bit. I'm all up for crew, too; however, it will likely be a long time before they can properly come into play.
    I apologise if I riled anyone up with the images.
     
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    I was a little iffy on the whole "heatbox" idea from the get, and after reading till my eyes bled, I can firmly say I'm in the crowd that wants this part of the proposal removed, for reasons extensively covered already.

    The concept of heat itself can stay if you like. I don't mind it being the limiting factor on systems, but this is how i would handle it.

    • Use a system, it generates heat in the reactor. The reactor then vents said heat.
    • The size of the reactor determines the amount of heat that can build up.
    • The speed of heat removal is determined by the surface area to volume ratio of your ship.
    (Smaller ships have an inherently higher surface area to volume ratio than larger ships, so it will be easier for them to dissipate heat. Also instead of calculating the actual SA:V of the ship, (which would not only be difficult but also promote a certain shape of ship) We instead calculate the SA:V of a cube equal to the block count of your ship.)
    • If heat build up goes beyond the capacity of the reactor, the system in use will begin taking damage.
    • The shape of the reactor doesn't matter only block count. Build it however you wish it to look.

    A few points to go over:
    1. People will be able to cram an enormous reactor into their large ship and then fill the rest with systems, but since their SA:V is low they will not be able to vent the heat fast enough for sustained battle. That enormous reactor will help with storing the heat that builds up but they will essentially have a time limit before systems start failing.
    2. Smaller ships such as drones and fighters will pretty much be like they are now, all systems and reactors, and that's ok because they can dissipate heat fast enough that they don't have to worry about storing it for any length of time.
    3. This will essentially put a cap on gigantism as well, if the numbers are cooked right.
    4. The PVP guys would still be able to min max their ships to be devastating against a more cosmetic builder by skirting the very edge of what their reactors and ships can handle, perhaps even venturing to take it beyond. Which imo is an absolute must.
    5. Could potentially add new meta to the game such as; a cheap throw away ship that fires one shot and then it's done. Or a hail mary weapon system on your ship that you fire once and hope it kills your target because now you cant use any other systems until the heat has dissipated.
     
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    DukeofRealms
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    I like the idea of designing a reactor with parts to say cool it down or increase efficiency but I'm not sure how far we can take 10 different ideas and merge them into one. How does heat fit into that? How do we restrict it with so many parts?
    Just to clarify?

    Ship mass vs system energy requirements

    Energy source (reactor) and byproduct = heat

    Heat results in-damage to blocks (near to heat source this become a critical working condition), system failures, catastrophic failure of reactor, ship integrity

    Batteries - to store energy

    Reactor sizes - small = 1 block, medium 5x5, large 9x9 generates energy of x amount (completely arbitrary and made up sizes for the sake of simplicity)

    Cooling systems - adjacent to reactors for maximum efficiency. Small reactors generate little heat, medium & large require proportional cooling

    Multiple reactors share energy requirements, do not increase output.

    So...

    Make some test blocks for cooling, reactors, batteries and let loose to see what results reveal.

    Also, engines - not just thrusters (reactors power the engines)

    For the record I am pro-heat

    Is it possible to have a recap and rough outline of issues so far identified?
     
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