Power System Overhaul Proposal

[Erth Paradine]

Heat does not 'conduct' through a vacuum, but it does 'radiate' in the infrared spectrum. Heat radiators are a thing on spacecraft and the International Space Station. Look it up.

True, however such systems tend to be quite bulky. The fragility of insulation layers and radiators could also add a challenging twist too.

 

[EricBlank]

I quite like the proposed overhaul. I would prefer a system where both availability of power and heat production are tracked simultaneously, but in the absence of that I'd prefer heat over power. With this I'm assuming our reactor core, if its large enough in the first place, simply produces as much as we need at all times and were just managing the heat?
I do think its a nice solution to the issues with power currently, especially in very small craft where setting up the reactor lines with the aesthetic you desire is often a pain, and I'd been hoping for a heat mechanic too. Having a power reactor core, conduits and coolant chambers sound much more shippy than the reactor lines we have now. I do look forward to shields being converted to a system like this too. Dunno about thrust...

Anyway, I would like to see a test of this sort of system in game, so we can see how its actually put together and then work out how to improve it.

 

[Raisinbat]

First off, this power overhaul is still in the conception stage. The candelabra ship concept is similarly just an idea. We don't know what the final form of either idea will be.

It's the best solution given the information we have. Its a pattern not a finished ship, and that's the pattern that produces the best results, because it's more mass efficient and therefor stronger.

A ship with a weapon big enough to one-shot obliterate a small ship needs to be completely incapable of tracking that vessel, or at the very least an extreme glass cannon. Turret tracking, first off, needs a tremendous nerf. Otherwise, there's going to be reactor one-shots left and right.

As opposed to a ship with the same mass invested in 500 small turrets with super fast tracking that will obliterate a small ship in one hit...

You need advantages to large weapons before you start adding disadvantages; we can just split them into many small.

Games like Space Engineers, which have more complex power systems are not nearly as fun for me to play on, because every part of the ship needs so much micro-management that I can't enjoy flying it.

You attach them to your ship, and they power it... What complexity are you talking about???

The reason I continue to support this change regardless of the arguments you laid out is that it does something that no change to the current system can do. It makes room around my reactor for a cool reactor room, and forces less aesthetically-minded players to leave it empty. Thus I get a cool reactor room with no drawback. After reading the dev post, I'm getting mental images of what ships might look like if the change goes through, and I'd rather play the game I see through my mind's eye than the one currently on my hard drive. I would enjoy making those ships a lot more than I enjoy making ships with the current power system or a modification thereof. I believe we will ultimately get a better and more unique game if we bite the bullet and go through with the change. Refitting your ships and stations in the new system should be more fun and less tedious than refitting them in the current system.

In all seriousness though, moving the game from "cram all of the blocks!" to building multi block structures separated by empty or decorated space would make the building aspect of the game many times more enjoyable to me, and not just for aesthetic reasons. I would prefer to design systems with that dynamic rather than the current "more blocks = better" solution.

The current power system of Starmade, and in fact the entire systems model has always struck me as odd. You guys are all used to it so it seems normal, but why the heck is the entire volume of our ships, aside from whatever we set aside for interior work, filled to the brim with blocks and blocks of systems? I really like the idea of having (relatively) small systems installed in the ship, with the rest of the space devoted to interiors. Imagine having actual decks, even on smaller ships, without having their performance being extremely limited. I'm not sure if Schine can pull it off, but if they can, being able to have both ideal pvp and rp ships all in one would be amazing.

The first part is that it is all about squeezing the most out of your ship, in PvP. If you have spaces, the guy you're fighting who doesn't have spaces has the advantage. Classic minmaxing. And that's absolutely fine. We can't make major changes and ignore something many people enjoy, and face it, it's a multiplayer sandboxy game, there's going to be player vs player combat.

I understand why people build their ships that way (I'm no different.) My question was why is the game designed in such a way that building this way is necessary.

I don't think there's any reason why people should be opposed to a total power system overhaul, aside from how much a pain in the ass refitting all your ships will be if you have multiple large designs. Other than that the only reason is our natural predisposition to disliking change. But hey, it's no secret the game is in Alpha, that's what happens when you play an early access game.

And I definitely don't think that a system redesign along these lines should be in any way bad for PvP. Yes, peoples ships will be less dense, but the whole point is that they can be just as potent while needing fewer blocks. And it's not like the people you'll be facing in battle will be playing with the old system- they'll be playing with the exact same new systems, with all the same handicaps and/or buffs it brings.

It's designed that way to give people choice. You can have fun building your combat monster doom cube, or you can have fun building space ship art, or you can have fun building a ship with a decent interior that can be the pants off of art, but loses to the deathcube.

This doesn't reduce choice at all. This just means that the space art has a chance against the doom cube. I don't believe that just because someone is interested in only their performance and not the aesthetics of their ship they have an inherent right to be better at battle than someone who cares as much or even more about aesthetics. On the other hand, of course I don't believe that doom cubes should be crippled to spare the space art. I just think that everyone should be able to have an effective ship, and you're free to choose if you want it to be pretty or not as well.

DukeofRealms this is why pvp players get mad on the forums.

All of this is based on the notion that PVP ships cannot have interiors, which is nonsense:

VanuBAS-Chronos-12K
NFD Cherokee, CA-122B Heavy Cruiser
DSY Inc. Type-D Scimitar

And i'm sure there are plenty more out there. Why are the mods totally fine with this misinformation being propagated, but crack down on worthwhile discussion just because it's a little harsh? If you're eliminating the people who make good posts instead of the people who spread nonsense and clog up discussion with realism and sci fi arguments while having no experience with the actual game part, is that really beneficial for the forums?

Basically this is RP players complaining that they aren't able to build effective ships, not that it's impossible. There's so much vitriol between PVP and RP communities because the RP community wants to destroy the PVP game. That's the bottom line of it, even if they don't think that's what they're doing, they want system design gone from the game, because they don't want any restrictions at all on their RP ships, even if it means removing system design completely from the game.

If this heat mechanic gets implemented for all the systems like you sugested then it is dictating mass distribution for ships eliminating the single most important component to competitive ship design.

Look at it this way.

If i start up sim city, but instead of building a city i put on a gruff sergeant voice, select the bulldoze tool and start "shooting" the trees while pretending they're enemy soldiers, i'm not really playing the game, i'm just being a tard. There's nothing wrong with being a tard (so long as noone catches you doing it) but should the developers of sim city be catering to that? Should trees start shooting back, or cities be limited in how many buildings you're allowed to have in a certain space to facilitate the room for enemy trees?

The idea that the game should be balanced around the whims of aesthetic RP builders and not around the PvP that those balance changes will actually effect is idiotic.

The problem with the starmade community is that people who want a space game where you build and fly around in a ship, shoot people, mine or conquer the universe don't really have any point to stay since the game isn't ready for that; only the cosmetic tools are in the game, so the people staying are focused on cosmetics instead of gameplay. This has inflated the community with aesthetics and rp people with no regards for starmade being a game, who would rather see it turned into a glorified 3D modelling tool. Listening to the majority of players, when the community is this skewed away from being a game, is a huge mistake:

To me StarMade has always been about one thing, creative choice

Games are defined by limitation; interacting with and overcoming it. Being able to go wherever you want and do whatever you want with no limitation makes for a terrible game.

It also means your game lacks purpose; You can't beat that guy because you aren't strong enough, you can't get up there until you have the double jump, you can't buy the sword until you have the money etc etc if you're free to access these things immediately.

I want purpose to my ships; i want how they're built to make them good at something and bad at something else. I want my ships limited in how far they can go, what resources they can mine, and how much they can carry because those are challenges to be overcome, not a limitation on your space Winnebago, and it's what creates purpose in the game. RP players design their ships to look a certain way with total disregard for mechanics, then expects the game to accomodate their design, while functional players build their ships with mechanics in mind; these two philosophies are NOT compatible; it either matters or it doesn't. There's no middle ground available, no diplomatic solution. If you cater to the RP community starmade will cease to be a game, please don't.

I'll get to shapes later for now i'd like to state that additionally to what i stated in the paragraph before the weapon system in it's actual state is one of the few things that actually performs.

This is a really important point. Weapon system building is really good, it just needs some ballance changes.

if something made players engage to such a degree as making spreadsheets about a mechanic you as a developer should be proud of having achieved creating an aspect of the game so intensely desireable to master that you should be proud of yourself. Taking away freedoms never a good thing and you will maybe never even leran it but be told that is a dark page in starmades history.

If they want to move away from the block system, then RP ships and PvP ships will essentially become the same. And that's fine too.

Fine in the sense that RP players get what they want as usual and PVP dies. Good job.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean a ship designed for one must not work in the other.

This is true when it goes PVP -> RP, but RP -> PVP cannot work, because it refuses to adapt to the game's mechanics.

Why should it? I don't see any reason for this. Science fiction films show very nice looking ships with full, complete, even comfortable interiors being effective in battle, shouldn't the developers of our science fiction ship building game strive to produce the same experience?

Going back to the rp nonsense: They're movies. They're not interactive, and they don't have ships that exploit their non-existant mechanics because they can just choose not to build them, just like you're free not to build them.

In typical RP fashion the ship is chosen based on aesthetics alone, and the game must be forced to accomodate it, all else be damned.

 

[T050189]

I In real life the same thing is true as is in starmade; if you use room for interior decoration instead of for practical application of active systems you end up with a mechanic that does not operate as well as that of the practical application fill. Thus, while I too hate the meta of 'fill all the gaps' I have to say it's only logical to conclude that it is not just to punish those who want stronger ships, sacrificing internal decor. I enjoy my internal decor and knowingly (and gladly) make that sacrifice. Is it preferable to have a weaker ship that looks good? Objectively there is no answer, but the choice must be made by the designer. Why punish one and reward the other by reworking energy in a fashion that bottlenecks the application of an operational efficiency based starship over a livable or pretty one? I do not see this as an improvement, but as a leash being applied to people who wish to milk efficiency. This only accomplishes punishing one type of player for the choices of another, unless you leave the option for efficiency milkers to pull ahead of internal designers in some fashion once again, which is clearly a point of contention....

Here's the thing:

Imagine, if you will, the average modern destroyer. Naval ships are generally the best RL counterpart we have to their spacefaring equivalents we see so often in Science Fiction.

A modern destroyer is not built with rooms for "interior decorations". Engine rooms, combat information centres, crew quarters, food storage, damage control - all these rooms have very real purposes.

A Starmade ship doesn't need these things. Players do not starve or dehydrate - you do not need canteens and stores of perishables. Players need not sleep nor defecate - you do not need crew quarters or sanitary facilities. Players can instantly heal themselves with a single 1x1 block - you do not need medical bays. Players do not need to interact with various computers and consoles in order to control the ship - there is no need for a bridge, or a command centre, or anything.

A Starmade ship as of current can be composed of nothing but ordnance, power and engines, and still function in absence of all these otherwise critical components.

This is why in real life, tanks and planes and ships and subs all have so much "interior decoration" - because this interior decoration isn't interior decoration. These "decorations" are the practical application of active systems. Whether it be food, ammunition, communications, consumables, or otherwise, these "decorations" are critical to the operation of a vessel.


The new system punishes people who throw every other thing out the window in favour of bumping up their stats as high as possible. I would expect that to be intentional - for in general a well-crafted, attractive looking vessel is generally preferable to a minmaxed cardboard box full of systems. It's understandable; what video game wants ugly, featureless hulks to represent their gameplay?

It encourages players to build, or at least use, more attractive ships. I don't see what's wrong with that.

 

[Lecic]

Right now, adding rooms downgrades the ship. In the new system, putting nothing in that space doesn't hurt the ship. It's an upgrade.

Wrong. Adding rooms beyond whatever is absolutely necessary for your crew would be completely pointless and would, in fact, hurt the ship, because you COULD put the new interior filler block or just some rocks or something in there instead, and those would absorb some damage.

further, adding a fin or antenna anywhere on the ship would increase the ships dimensions and make it even easier to find the space.

You've just pointed out one the major flaws in the heat boundary box system. Thanks.

We still need a method to combat block stuffing, and heat boxes should do the trick.

Or.... OR.... crew could do it, while also being less restrictive on players?

Fueling every ship in every fleet for the entire game would be tedious. Unless the process is inherently automatic, in which case we would be adding what is sort of already present. Power regen could just be called automatic fuel generation but the name doesn't change the mechanic.

If the game was to have fuel, I would suggest having Power Auxiliaries run off of it. This would primarily only effect player piloted ships anyway, since even if AI could use aux and didn't have terrible piloting ability, commanders would probably still only put AI control over ships up to the power softcap just because of power and resource effectiveness.

It encourages players to build, or at least use, more attractive ships. I don't see what's wrong with that.

How do heatboxes make people build more attractive ships? What in this suggestion stops me from just building an ugly, featureless brick?

 

[IronDusk33]

...you do not need crew quarters or sanitary facilities. Players can instantly heal themselves with a single 1x1 block - you do not need medical bays. Players do not need to interact with various computers and consoles in order to control the ship - there is no need for a bridge, or a command centre, or anything./QUOTE]

Not YET. There has been an update in the works for a while that will add crew quarters and actually crew NPCs. These NPCs are intended to add benefits to ship performance, but require certain things, like sleep and recreation, in order to continue efficiently. So while it is currently true that you only need the player to pilot an entire ship at peak efficiency, that won't be the case forever.
[doublepost=1486966753,1486965113][/doublepost]Not trying to throw hate towards the PvP players here, but you guys have gotten plenty of love from the dev team. They have bent over backwards trying to get all the weapons, armor, shields, and other systems perfectly balanced.

Now, this system is something that nearly every single RP player has been asking about, since power generation was introduced. It will change the game, but we should expect that, this game isn't even in beta yet.

Also, let's not forget that RP players want to fight with their ships too, they just want to have their elegant ships and interiors to be practical while they do it.

 

[SparkyInAus]

The problem with the starmade community is that people who want a space game where you build and fly around in a ship, shoot people, mine or conquer the universe don't really have any point to stay since the game isn't ready for that; only the cosmetic tools are in the game, so the people staying are focused on cosmetics instead of gameplay. This has inflated the community with aesthetics and rp people with no regards for starmade being a game, who would rather see it turned into a glorified 3D modelling tool. Listening to the majority of players, when the community is this skewed away from being a game, is a huge mistake:

You are absolutely correct in this one point, the game isn't finished. The rest of your argument about RPers vs PvPers is completely meaningless as you are basing you opinion on an unfinished portion of a game and making assumptions on what the creators are intending to do with it. I think the fact that this proposal was made is an indication of the direction the game is going.

I can understand why all the PvPers see this thread as such a threat, this would be quite a huge change and would invalidate months of fine tuning. Fortunately I have a solution for you all that will save you from not only this potential change but any other adjustments, stop updating. Pick a version and call that "competitive Starmade"

 

[theEota]

I'm new to this discussion but:

I am totally excited for the idea. I hate the current issue of "stuff it to the gills with systems and any style is wasted space". If weapons systems follow a similar route, then I will be totally excited. My idea would by weapons that are as powerful as you set them, but overheat or max out by size, and that size is smaller than the massive chunks of blocks.

I would also like to see the "weapon effect modules" removed and changed into just the computer linked to save systems space. It would be very cool to focus on the design of ships with this 'mech warrior' heat and equip system.

Creativity will always be possible because of creative mode and people with patience, but the core game needs a much more fluid and creative solution to flight than everyone settling on tubes/cubes with cameras. This sounds like small shuttles will be able to have reasonable weapons for their size and power cores, while scaled up ships will also be bound more to the idea of "how can I optimize my ship for battle while also looking awesome".

 

[Raisinbat]

You are absolutely correct in this one point, the game isn't finished.

Nothing in my post says this

The rest of your argument about RPers vs PvPers is completely meaningless as you are basing you opinion on an unfinished portion of a game and making assumptions on what the creators are intending to do with it.

And yet here you are doing exactly what i'm accusing you of doing.

I can understand why all the PvPers see this thread as such a threat, this would be quite a huge change and would invalidate months of fine tuning.

No. No you scumbag, this would DESTROY THE GAME FOR US, thats not "change" or "months of work" going away, that's ending the fucking game. And we're not complaining about changes to the powersystem, i'm sure as shit not, we're complaining because it BREAKS THE GAME.

stop updating. Pick a version and call that "competitive Starmade"

With broken AI, modular ships and garbage performance? Yeah, great idea! Have the devs stop working on the game and add more retarded roleplaying garbage for your unquenchable interior decorating thirst.

 

[IronDusk33]

And we're not complaining about changes to the powersystem, i'm sure as shit not, we're complaining because it BREAKS THE GAME.

I think you're overacting a tiny bit here.

 

[Lecic]

Not trying to throw hate towards the PvP players here, but you guys have gotten plenty of love from the dev team. They have bent over backwards trying to get all the weapons, armor, shields, and other systems perfectly balanced.

Also, let's not forget that RP players want to fight with their ships too, they just want to have their elegant ships and interiors to be practical while they do it.

Yes, the devs HAVE done a lot of work balancing the systems in this game, so that makes me think- why are they throwing it all away for a system that probably isn't even necessary?

As for that second part...

The idea that the game should be balanced around the whims of aesthetic RP builders and not around the PvP that those balance changes will actually effect is idiotic.

Crew can accomplish what you people want without putting massive limitations on how ships can and cannot be built.

 

[Raisinbat]

I think you're overacting a tiny bit here.

I play the game to make effective combat ships

This idiot wants to standardize combat effectiveness across all ships so RP players aren't disadvantages for being terrible because they're incompetent gameplay communists who thinks all ships should be equal.

How am i going to make effective combat ships when that's literally impossible?

 

[SparkyInAus]

Nothing in my post says this

refer:

since the game isn't ready for that

we're complaining because it BREAKS THE GAME

Breaks the game as you know it. And that's the core of my point, the game isn't finished. What was made 2 years ago would work now, why should progress stop if the devs aren't happy with the way it is.

 

[nightrune]

Yes, the devs HAVE done a lot of work balancing the systems in this game, so that makes me think- why are they throwing it all away for a system that probably isn't even necessary?

Sunk cost - Wikipedia

As for that second part...

Crew can accomplish what you people want without putting massive limitations on how ships can and cannot be built.

Possibly and definitely a valid point.

 

[Lecic]

Sunk cost - Wikipedia

Sunk cost is only applicable when the system actually needs removed and replaced. I'm not really sure power needs to be scrapped and replaced with heat.

 

[T050189]

Not YET. There has been an update in the works for a while that will add crew quarters and actually crew NPCs. These NPCs are intended to add benefits to ship performance, but require certain things, like sleep and recreation, in order to continue efficiently. So while it is currently true that you only need the player to pilot an entire ship at peak efficiency, that won't be the case forever.

Aye, but it's a solid bet that those proper crew NPCs won't be in game for quite a while to come. Centralised reactor cores as opposed to lines of power reactors do seem to be more interesting, though it's really subjective.

How do heatboxes make people build more attractive ships? What in this suggestion stops me from just building an ugly, featureless brick?

It's not perfect, but it does at least reduce the appeal of ugly, featureless bricks. Sort of a competitive demand deal. In any case, I'm kind of on the fence with the heat field thing; I'm more of a supporter of the "centralised power" idea.

No. No you scumbag, this would DESTROY THE GAME FOR US, thats not "change" or "months of work" going away, that's ending the fucking game. And we're not complaining about changes to the powersystem, i'm sure as shit not, we're complaining because it BREAKS THE GAME.
With broken AI, modular ships and garbage performance? Yeah, great idea! Have the devs stop working on the game and add more retarded roleplaying garbage for your unquenchable interior decorating thirst.

Ladies and gentlemen,

May I present to you the epitome of Starmade.

 

[Lecic]

It's not perfect, but it does at least reduce the appeal of ugly, featureless bricks. Sort of a competitive demand deal.

How? Explain. You have yet to explain at all how it does this.

Ladies and gentlemen,

May I present to you the epitome of Starmade.

Really tired of people who just build RP ships talking about the PvP scene like they know anything about it beyond a few lines of chat they read in 2014 about cubes being OP.

Let me make this absolutely clear, under no uncertain terms, to anyone reading this-

CUBES ARE NOT OVERPOWERED AND ARE ACTUALLY A TERRIBLE CHOICE OF SHIP SHAPE IN THE MODERN META.

 

[nightrune]

Sunk cost is only applicable when the system actually needs removed and replaced. I'm not really sure power needs to be scrapped and replaced with heat.

I'm still waiting to see what comes of this thread, but the more I lay out numbers, the better heat seems to be, at least conceptually, easier to balance and tie into other gameplay dynamics. Which is something I find very intriguing. Including heat being the way you find ships and weak spots in ships. My particular view on ship building is that everything should have a weakpoint. Mostly because people won't ever select a weak point. It becomes the choice in your design.

I happen to fall into a mix PVP and RP realm. Its the most fun for me because I value immersion the most, but not at the cost of fun. Everyone's idea of fun is a bit different. There quite a few in here that value combat prowess and design over everything, but the problem might actually be those players are too good at what you do. Some of the meta weapons I've seen are incredible, but I don't think it makes for a good game since there is no clear path forward for someone new. In fact the more approachable something is the more likely you are to have battles. I like the idea of the new mechanism since it avoids odd numbers and power limits, which we could do in a power system but I think heat works better at large. Allowing the environment to affect system performance as well. Too close to a sun then you overheat faster without the damage. Oh but I'm a small ship and your scanners can't seem me since I generate less heat then the sun, that's awesome as well. Those aren't talked about in the original op but that's the kind of feed back they are asking for.

In most building games RP takes a back seat to PVP, it doesn't have to be that way, and I fail to see why in starmade it has to be that way. Combat just happens to be the main gameplay element right now. I doubt that'll last.

 

[Raisinbat]

It's not perfect, but it does at least reduce the appeal of ugly, featureless bricks. Sort of a competitive demand deal. In any case, I'm kind of on the fence with the heat field thing; I'm more of a supporter of the "centralised power" idea.

Ladies and gentlemen,

May I present to you the epitome of Starmade.

See:

All of this is based on the notion that PVP ships cannot have interiors, which is nonsense:

VanuBAS-Chronos-12K
NFD Cherokee, CA-122B Heavy Cruiser
DSY Inc. Type-D Scimitar

WHERE ARE THESE CUBES??? I've NEVER seen one, except for my balistic test dummy, and noone is flying that. If you dont do pvp why talk about it. You don't know what you're talking about and are just ruining the game for others because you're an idiot.

In most building games RP takes a back seat to PVP, it doesn't have to be that way, and I fail to see why in starmade it has to be that way. Combat just happens to be the main gameplay element right now. I doubt that'll last.

Then read the thread ffs. RP design = non-functional arbitrary ship design, while PVP = focused mechanical design. Making RP design viable = removing mechanical design from the equation = no more game for PVP.

 

[nightrune]

Then read the thread ffs. RP design = non-functional arbitrary ship design, while PVP = focused mechanical design. Making RP design viable = removing mechanical design from the equation = no more game for PVP.

I fail to see how these must be mutually exclusion in something virtually, creatively designed by humans. I doubt this is dictated by the laws of computing and imagination.