Power System Overhaul Proposal

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    Valiant70

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    So why should the person who has built more function into his ship be inferior to the person who decided to build more pretty into their ship?
    Both should be exactly equal in function. One should be inferior in appearance simply because no one wanted to decorate it, and that is fine. There is no penalty for lack of decoration.

    You can't fix that with a block system.
    You're definitely right about that. That's why we should move from a purely block-based system to a system of multiblocks with required space between them.

    And by forcing people to build a certain way is defeating Schine's intended purpose of not forcing people to build a certain way.
    Overall, there should be less forcing going on in the new system. People can arrange things however they like, with or without decorations in the middle. Right now one must put power grids throughout the entire ship and squash systems into every void to be as effective as possible.

    As for adding bunks and messhalls, yeah, that's the whole point, the ship that fills everything is objectively better.
    It is not necessary for this to be the case, nor is it desirable.

    I'm not arguing that changing how power works is a bad thing, just that the proposed system is not different from the current system, except some numbers are higher. Which could be done right now by any server admin or player, if they wanted to fiddle and figure out what number to change to get more power out of the power blocks. Schine could do it right now, easy peasy, and no one would have to gut their ships and redesign it.
    The proposed system requires space between blocks. Admins cannot configure such a requirement into the current game. I have been trying to explain why the new system is different, but I am beginning think I am explaining to one who does not wish to understand. Do you wish to understand what I am trying to explain?
     
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    I totally agree that the current system is boring as hell, however, the idea of having a power/maxpower value should not be discarded because it is much simpler to understand in comparison to the heat system. The proposed heat system would run off a 0-100 scale, so say a weapon gives 15% heat. If you double your heat capacity (so to speak), it would be difficult to figure out how much heat the weapon would generate in comparison to the flat numbers of power usage/recharge. I do want the heat system to be added, however the power/maxpower would ideally be retained as well as another balancing factor.
     
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    The issue with thinking an entire game set needs to be simple is that it's ignoring valuable late-game mastery. I personally think that ship design should get considerably harder to achieve mediocrity the larger the ship is, but at the same time, ensuring that the mastery of all ship types is equally as hard.
    Yes please!
    But do so while leaving design options as open as possible. No easy task for the developers.
     

    Valiant70

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    Personal opinion time!

    I don't agree with heat boundaries either. It is a spatial / placement restriction and I fear it will be difficult to control exploits or meta designs. The goal is to allow any ship shape to be viable. I think there are better solutions. I will present some ideas to the others soon.
    I just hope the block-stuffing meta can be defeated. Perhaps making all systems work in specific shapes would still be an improvement. I love spatial reasoning puzzles. In the current game I enjoy designing reactors and not much else.
     

    Criss

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    I just hope the block-stuffing meta can be defeated. Perhaps making all systems work in specific shapes would still be an improvement. I love spatial reasoning puzzles. In the current game I enjoy designing reactors and not much else.
    I like the idea of designing a reactor with parts to say cool it down or increase efficiency but I'm not sure how far we can take 10 different ideas and merge them into one. How does heat fit into that? How do we restrict it with so many parts? It's complicated :(
     

    Top 4ce

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    I like the idea of designing a reactor with parts to say cool it down or increase efficiency but I'm not sure how far we can take 10 different ideas and merge them into one. How does heat fit into that? How do we restrict it with so many parts? It's complicated :(
    By having heat be reduced by surface area. ;)
     
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    Valiant70

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    By having heat be reduced by surface area. ;)
    Interesting idea. That would add a purpose for "wings" that are actually radiators. It would be computationally heavy, however, and might end up being more restrictive than the beatboxes because it would appear to favor jagged or finned designs over sleek ones.

    Can you think of a way to modify this idea so it doesn't hurt sleek designs?
     
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    Fueling every ship in every fleet for the entire game would be tedious. Unless the process is inherently automatic, in which case we would be adding what is sort of already present. Power regen could just be called automatic fuel generation but the name doesn't change the mechanic.
    Except that, regardless of automation, fuel is a Cost. It would not be a reiteration of the existing dynamic, it would be attaching a Cost to existing power generation as a resistance factor to overbuilding, or drone camping, since all such activities would incur a Cost. Not to run off on a tangent, the Proposal here is enough, but I'm a supporter of fuel systems even if it means that ships aren't built or operated one iota differently than they already are. It adds a layer of strategic complexity and brings more balance to gameplay.
     
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    Valiant70

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    I like the idea of designing a reactor with parts to say cool it down or increase efficiency but I'm not sure how far we can take 10 different ideas and merge them into one. How does heat fit into that? How do we restrict it with so many parts? It's complicated
    In the OP, you've got heat as the limiting factor rather than power generation. I like that because it's less conventional, and simpler (read: easier to balance and understand) than having separate power and heat mechanics. I think that should stay. The solution probably lies with a combination of heat producing drawbacks that get worse with ship mass and several different tiers of systems to counter those drawbacks. I would be careful with ship mass mechanics though, as we could end up with a meta that requires shaving off all possible mass, which again penalizes decoration.
     

    Top 4ce

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    Interesting idea. That would add a purpose for "wings" that are actually radiators. It would be computationally heavy, however, and might end up being more restrictive than the beatboxes because it would appear to favor jagged or finned designs over sleek ones.

    Can you think of a way to modify this idea so it doesn't hurt sleek designs?
    How about the surface area of a ship?

    The larger the ship, the larger the area but you'll have a lot more volume. If you fill the volume with power hungry systems, and use a lot at once, you create a lot heat into your ship. However the 'drain' of the is limited to the surface area of your ship. Sure you can make large sails to dump the heat, but you decrease maneuverability and increase your profile. Added that with a "signature" mechanic where the size of youre ship dictates how far away is spotted, you have an other balancing factor.

    All this without heat areas and FTD "engine" building.
    However you raise a great point. Lager sleeker ships do suffer from a smaller surface area. They are also a smaller target for similar volume. That would be something to overcome and think about.

    I would have to think about it, thanks for that observation.
     

    Raisinbat

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    This sugestion absolutely needs to consider docked entities, or it will allow modular ships to exploit the empty space, making them 20x as powerful (and they don't need more buffs)



    Like that.

    But what happens if you put a docked reactor onto a moving entity, like a turret?



    This sugestion will require colission detection for the heat boundaries, and given the way my computer shits itself with just 10 area detection blocks i don't see this being possible.

    Are you sure you can implement this?
     

    Erth Paradine

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    This sugestion absolutely needs to consider docked entities, or it will allow modular ships to exploit the empty space, making them 20x as powerful (and they don't need more buffs)



    Like that.

    But what happens if you put a docked reactor onto a moving entity, like a turret?



    This sugestion will require colission detection for the heat boundaries, and given the way my computer shits itself with just 10 area detection blocks i don't see this being possible.

    Are you sure you can implement this?
    But heat doesn't conduct over the vacuum of space. What we'd need with this, is accelerated damage to the connecting/rail blocks; heat-related materials fatigue.
     
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    I think this proposal is going in the right direction. The current systems need an overhaul. When someone makes a really amazing ship, players should be just as impressed with it's systems as it's exterior and interior. I'd like to look at a ship's systems and say something like "he did a great job fitting that much power in a small space". Rather than, "0 out of 10, I found empty space."
     
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    But heat doesn't conduct over the vacuum of space. What we'd need with this, is accelerated damage to the connecting/rail blocks; heat-related materials fatigue.
    Heat does not 'conduct' through a vacuum, but it does 'radiate' in the infrared spectrum. Heat radiators are a thing on spacecraft and the International Space Station. Look it up.
     
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    I like the current power capacity and power regen and don’t want to see those go away and replaced with just a heat percentage.

    Aux power is new to me but it seems like it takes too many blocks.

    Since I have only been building large mining ships in single player, that’s all I can really comment on. The issues I have been running into:

    · Too many systems blocks required for various systems. (Problem 3 from OP)

    · Not enough Power Regen for the ridiculous amount Thrusters needed to move a massive mining array, and all the cargo. (Problem 4 from OP)

    Less system blocks required/increased efficiency is a good change. Though, 5% for large ships doesn’t sound like it would even be noticeable on my ships. 50% less power aux and thrusters would be significant.

    Added complexity in system designs is cool. Like incorporating conduit, circuits, coolant tanks, heat sinks, etc.

    I like the idea of docked reactors.

    Lighter Inner Hull would be neat.

    Additional build and advanced build tools would be fantastic.

    I don’t currently see problems 1 and 2 from the OP.

    I haven’t been playing PvP. So there may be some balance issues that I’m not aware of.
     
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    But what happens if you put a docked reactor onto a moving entity, like a turret?
    Assuming the heat box is cross entity (I highly doubt), the turrets heat box would be offset to be in the body of the turret as much as possible based on what has previously been suggested, making it a little easier to manage. But of course this is all 2 dimension thinking, would the heat box on both your ship and turret be deep enough to overlap? If your building concealed/semi-concealed turrets then you are smart enough to be able to take other considerations such as a heat emissions into account.
     

    Raisinbat

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    Assuming the heat box is cross entity (I highly doubt), the turrets heat box would be offset to be in the body of the turret as much as possible based on what has previously been suggested, making it a little easier to manage. But of course this is all 2 dimension thinking, would the heat box on both your ship and turret be deep enough to overlap? If your building concealed/semi-concealed turrets then you are smart enough to be able to take other considerations such as a heat emissions into account.
    The point is you can break the rules ( my turret bases are much thinner in the part that extends into the hull and wider on top, that will 100% produce overlap) to get an advantage, and if the game implements necessary countermeasures its going to impose a huge cost in performance (i think).
     
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    Initially, I liked this idea. It's reminiscent of a minecraft mod, Big Reactors, which added multiblock reactors and was very well received, and I myself loved for my adoration of logic and spatial puzzles. But I do have my own concerns. I am sorry for the wall of text.

    I know it was said earlier than the 'no interior = More systems = better ship' is not desirable, but I would like to point out that this argument isn't helpful. In real life the same thing is true as is in starmade; if you use room for interior decoration instead of for practical application of active systems you end up with a mechanic that does not operate as well as that of the practical application fill. Thus, while I too hate the meta of 'fill all the gaps' I have to say it's only logical to conclude that it is not just to punish those who want stronger ships, sacrificing internal decor. I enjoy my internal decor and knowingly (and gladly) make that sacrifice. Is it preferable to have a weaker ship that looks good? Objectively there is no answer, but the choice must be made by the designer. Why punish one and reward the other by reworking energy in a fashion that bottlenecks the application of an operational efficiency based starship over a livable or pretty one? I do not see this as an improvement, but as a leash being applied to people who wish to milk efficiency. This only accomplishes punishing one type of player for the choices of another, unless you leave the option for efficiency milkers to pull ahead of internal designers in some fashion once again, which is clearly a point of contention. Low hp no armor blocks, even for internal buffering, are useless against most systems and I am brave enough to suggest that many players would agree with that. It's simply not a viable trade off, unless the desired outcome is to turn Starmade into a little less 'Design and battle!' and a little more barbie fun house. I like my barbie fun house, but I like it in context of the game as it is.

    Additionally, while I do approve of work to improve the fundamental principles of the game, I am concerned about the approach of this idea. Conceptually it is a kind thing and clever to be sure, but the applications of coding alone make this a boggling take-on. Heat detection sensors between all modular systems and ships, heat counters, let alone the result of reactor breaches on multiple ships at once? The coding would be a very impressive undertaking, but the burden on a server or even client-side would skyrocket quickly if you are winning a battle; why punish someone for victory? While it could be argued this is already present (and it is to no fault of anyone) many PC's struggle with the workload now.

    This system would offer things like effect module (cooling) or the like a chance for entrance and would offer an exciting change for star heat I admit, but it also opens other avenues. Shouldn't beams create more heat on targets than a cannon? Should there be effect modules in contest of these systems? When looking at a larger ship with laden armor and tons of turrets, would it not simply just be most efficient than to find a way to overload their reactor than to bother trying to out-and-out fight them at all? What's to keep anyone from just using the layout of a ship to say 'Well logically if that ship were an empty skin hull, I would put the reactor riiight... there.' Boom. While innovative, this system would offer an entirely new kind of meta. It's fine and dandy when Worf is targeting a Romulan power reactor or a thruster cluster, but in practical application, no amount of shielding will keep any tenacious fighter out of the hull breaching tactic. Reactors will become less of a 'benefit' for ships, and more of a hindrance, leading to bulkier, slower, and far more viciously defensive ships than the current system which allows just a hint more flexibility. I, for one, would make it a point to just punch shields down with Ion and then set punch-through cannon waffles through hulls playing where's waldo with a reactor. Marco, Polo. Marco, boom.

    My final issue (insofar as being logic goes) has already been mentioned and I feel deserves emphasis. We have a fleet system now, and we have turrets. Who wants to design one of these reactors for every last ship and turret of middling size? The idea is, in itself, a bit of a turn-off to the idea of using the more-or-less recently implemented fleet system at all. I agree the current system is flawed, but is this sort of complication a necessary one? It's a good brainstorming step at the very least, and brilliantly creative at best, but is it necessarily an improvement?

    I don't like the idea of spatial heat and spatial multi-structures being used in conjunction with weapons based systems in a hull skin, but I have no logical argument to present and recognize that now to confirm my bias, as is only fair. The idea reeks of star wars 'Heat vents' to me, and we all know how the death star worked out. I'm not saying I mind my ship having a glaring weakness, but all ships having the same weakness in likeness? If vents were not included, why not? When dealing with the vacuum of space it seems rather reasonable to use such a simple mechanic. But then we could also hit meta-venting and modular issues regarding vent placement an-- GUH. Anyway, not entirely logical, this bit, but had to vent. Ironically.

    Just my two cents.
     
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    The point is you can break the rules ( my turret bases are much thinner in the part that extends into the hull and wider on top, that will 100% produce overlap) to get an advantage, and if the game implements necessary countermeasures its going to impose a huge cost in performance (i think).
    Currently this is no more than a proposal for the propose of discussion, pretty much thinking of issues with it and possible solutions to them. In your example, I'd think the most suitable option would be for heat to not transfer to other entities and that where the heat box would extend beyond the structure itself, it would instead be added to the boundary still within the entity. So you still have to deal with the same cubic area of heat generated by the system. Keeping in mind the idea is to reduce the percentage of system in structures, so it may very well be unlikely that a turret would need a generator big enough to cause such an issue.
     
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