Power System Overhaul Proposal

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    alterintel

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    If you do this then how you balance astronaut weapons?
    Good point... not sure.
    Maybe only allow astronaut weapons to harm crew members ?
    And maybe require the torch to be used for 10 un-interrupted seconds to remove 1 hit-point.
     
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    Idea is great and it would be much better then current system HOWEVER:
    you are yet again deviating from adressing main problem in the game which is - there is absolutely nothign to do but building.And you are yet agains restarting features to more building.
    You need to start adding stuff to do other than building ships.
    Making building better doesnt add much if you dont have anything to use ships for.
    And reworking this system will take ALOT of your time.
    This is very essential though. Vetter sooner than later. I for one enjoy building for the sake oft it. When i am done i build the next ship and improve. That is true for alot oft people i think. For actual gameplay in this early game you should check out Servers. Some oft them provide activities.
     

    Waterphoenix

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    I think this concept is brilliant and has been needed for a long time. Don't worry about making everyone redesign their ships by the way, it is an unfinished game and change is to be expected. Just a few suggestions that hopefully you agree would be cool:

    -If a large reactor gets severely damaged or a high heat level is sustained for too long, then the reactor goes into a meltdown. After a certain amount of time, boom, the reactor explodes. This would lead to some interesting systems where the reactor might have to be ejected or even used as a warhead.
    -Cooling vents for the reactor. I'm not sure how intensive this would be on the game but hear me out. Basically, if the reactor is exposed to the outside of the ship, then it gets a cooling buff. This doesn't mean it has to be placed on the outside of the ship, but there could be hollowed out areas from the surface of the ship to the chambers, and the shorter the distance / wider the tunnels the more cooling affect. This would encourage people to use small fighters more to take on very large ships, as the reactors would need to be closer to the surface or with an access tunnel (think the death star's exhaust port.) Also, due to the nature of small fighters being, well, small, their reactors would naturally be closer to the surface and they would be more energy efficient, so they could have better thrust or guns or whatever.

    Hope you like the suggestion. Just thought while we're fixing the old power problem we may as well consider fixing the old "bigger is better" problem too :)
     

    Raisinbat

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    That's not how I build, and I consider myself a RP player. When I build a ship, I do want to make it look a certain way, but I also want it to actually do something. The difficulty in figuring out what functionality I can add to the shape I want to build is a challenge that makes building interesting.
    Then please explain to me why you are defending a system that eliminates system space as a consideration for design?

    I just need to point out that giving the player "total freedom", or otherwise no restrictions basically translates the game into "choose a shape, and type in the number of stats you want".
    The very reason we call it a game is because you're given the task of maximising your utility with these tradeoffs and compromises available. A simple translation from the nature of the ship to utility gives us an easily 'gamed' game. You can beat it very quickly because the maximum utility is very easy to find- just follow the basic rules. A better game has some fractal-ass nature to it; where maximum utility has many different places it is greater; and ultimately there is never an end to a larger spike hidden just around the corner. The trick is to not make that spike findable by just following the curve.

    That's a little bit of theory; but it's implication (if you understand it) is that without tradeoffs, without these "forced design choices", then it becomes less of a game, and more of a painting canvas.
    This is a really good point.

    As an example of how eliminating dense system interior reduces what you end up doing, this is a turret i've been working on:



    It's got a large power base extending 55 blocks into the ship's hull:



    And that power base includes its own interior and access from inside the ship so you can enter the turret without exiting the ship.



    Currently the point of this thing is to make a super fast hull destroyer, but if you make system space ultra small and turrets similarly tiny as a result, then this build has no point to it; if the turret is tiny and self powered, what's the point of the huge base? This thing being the size it is forces you to rethink how your interior can be built, it introduces a level of complexity to your ships layout that simply does not exist if system space is reduced to such a tiny volume.

    You're going to hear the same old argument from the RP crowd; that you can still build this turret and it will look the same, but they always disregard that we build for the purpose of function, not aesthetics, and if there is no purpose to a turret this size why make it?
     
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    I have an idea!/ concern. I LOVE building interior in my ships and pride myself in building full interior ships that are also feared in pvp :) it takes alot longer to design but its worth it and i enjoy the challenge. That being said I am concerned that the "box" will severely limit interior design. I like that I'll be able to build a functioning reactor core but as described it means that the reactor core MUST be in the center of my interior in order to have a combat effective ship...

    My idea... make it so the box is adjustable not in size necessarily but in position. it must be in the max ship dimensions etc etc but I should be able to place a reactor (be it power or otherwise) at the edge of my interior and move the box to match the interior of my ship so long as the reactor itself is still in said "box" or circle or whatever. you mentioned that the area of effect radius shape would likely be adjustable in some way. <excellent idea :). Furthermore... being forced to place my reactor in the center of my interior is not only restrictive, and unrealistic (generally building a reactor close to high traffic areas is a terrible idea) but mechanically speaking it breaks the whole point of implementing armor hp and ship hp into the game and making it so shooting a core doesn't kill a ship.... the reactor is the new ship core which is fine as far as I'm concerned but it should not have to be in a predictable location.

    With my idea yes, you know my reactor is somewhere in my interior but you should have to find it not just shoot for the center of the hollow space you can see at a glance from build mode! I should be able to put a reactor anywhere in that area or reactors for that matter. I HATE the idea of rebuilding everything I've worked on for years and not working on new designs in favor of saving ones i love but I'll deal lol. But if there is no control on the location of these boxes it will break the game for me not just my blueprints.

    possible implementation of this... the box must be so big/ reactor size yes? maybe be able to adjust the height width and length of this box and location again so long as the reactor is included and its inside the ship AND the selected area still takes the same amount of space prescribed to said reactor.... adjustable box dimensions was an add-on thought again to interior design restrictions in mind. what if i want a 1 deck ship? or its a tall thin ship? these should not be limited as b4 mentioned you will wind up forcing medium to large ships to be extremely bulky and thus actually encourage death cubes instead of stopping them. Also b4 mentioned cube ships are rare most people care about what their ships/ stations look like as half the game is building the things you use and the #1 reason I love it so much. I've brought many of my friends to this game and the main appeal is that you can build practically anything you can imagine if your willing to put in the time.

    Sorry if this post is a long read but i put a lot of thought into it. Thank you for reading.


    this has been reposted as per requested to have the attention status added so devs will read.
     
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    Hi,

    Let me start by contradicting the stated "problems" with the current system.

    a) Forced design choices are what causes complexity. Without forced design choices you end up with "slap whatever wherever and it'll be fine" (no complexity).

    If you want to encourage ships with interior spaces, changing the power system in the hope that this might maybe somehow indirectly convince someone to possibly want interiors is the wrong approach. If you want to encourage ships with interior spaces, give players a direct (not indirect) reason to want interior spaces; like bedrooms/quarters, kitchen areas, relaxation/garden areas, food production areas (mushroom farms!), etc; where the size of the space and/or the contents of the space effects productivity and/or morale of the player and NPCs in some way.

    If you want to discourage doom cubes, then you're delusional. There will always be methods of designing a ship that is optimal for some reason or another; and the only thing you can possible do is replace stupid people whining about doom cubes with stupid people whining about whatever becomes the most optimal design after the changes ("doom hollowed out sphere" or whatever). It achieves nothing.

    Note that (if I understood the proposed "heat influence area" properly) I expect that the new most optimal ship design will become "external armoured power reactors pods" floating far away from the main part of the ship; where the main ship (excluding the "external armoured power reactors pods") will still be a doom cube packed full of systems without any interior spaces.

    b) Lack of complexity is mostly nonsense. The "XYZ" arrangement for the original power genenerator blocks has always been a challenge for small ships (where it's tricky to fit inside the ship's hull), and has encouraged multiple "most efficient generator" discussions. The new power auxiliary blocks are also relatively challenging because of their "exploding" nature - you don't want them anywhere near the outer hull (due to risk of damage/explosion) and you don't want them anywhere near critical systems (due to risk of failing auxiliary power taking out nearby systems).

    For large ships (not weenie little bath-time toys, but ships in the "millions of blocks" range), the power required to get "mostly unacceptable but better than nothing" thrust is insane and it's impossible to achieve even when you fill the entire ship with nothing more than thrusters and power auxiliary blocks. The only viable option is to rely on power capacitors to give you enough stored power to be able to accelerate or deaccelerate for a short time (I aim for about 5 seconds) before you run out of power.

    Now compare this to the "complexity" of thrusters, or shield capacity/regen, or any weapon system, or jump drives, or scanners, or... You will find that the current power system is the only thing that doesn't lack complexity.

    c) Too many blocks involved is also mostly nonsense. There are a lot of blocks needed (especially for larger ships); but it's necessary for game balance - without this, everyone will be flying massive titans and the game will crumble due to the severe performance implications involved with "multiple fleets of many titans".

    d) Focus on regen is also nonsense. For large ship thrust you need power storage (see above). For high damage/slow reload weapons (e.g. "missile:pulse:something") in ships of any size you need power storage.

    Now... For the proposed "solution", I'll begin with the simple problems.

    First, "internal hull" is an oxymoron - please change the name to "thermal insulation" (I don't necessarily care if the stats and appearance are identical regardless of name). Second, due to the way rendering works (adjoining faces of solid blocks are discarded very early and don't add to graphics overhead) empty internal space will cause a significant frame rate problem for a lot of people. Third, I personally think "bounding box heat zone" is silly (thermal dynamics does not work like that) and will be exploited (e.g. see "external armoured power reactors pods" above).

    That leaves the bigger problem. I like the reactor mechanics, but not the coolant tanks (more on that below). I also like the idea of adding "heat" (as a concept) to the game a lot, but in addition to power and not instead of power. However...

    To be perfectly blunt; if you're going to redesign so much anyway, I think you need to stop diddling with childish failures and start designing game mechanics that at least have a "slightly plausible" basis in physics.


    My Proposal

    Energy does not mystically appear out of nowhere - you need some form of fuel source, whether it's a storable chemical energy (e.g. liquid hydrogen and oxygen?), nuclear (uranium), light (solar panels), something else; or a mixture of multiple options. For game balance and economic reasons I'm strongly in favour of consumable fuel (with solar as a "low regen, non-consumable" option) - I'm fairly sure consumable fuel (and all the advantages) has been discussed multiple times already, so I'll try not to repeat that.

    Most energy sources require something to convert it into a usable form (electricity/power). This would be an engine or reactor. Solar energy wouldn't (making it much nicer for smaller ships where you can't afford the space for an engine or reactor).

    Engines or reactors generate heat. Heat does not magically disappear all by itself (e.g. coolant on its own would just keep getting hotter until it ceases to cool anything). The only place heat can go is out into space; either by external heat radiators (which create an external vulnerability , or a combination of internal radiators and some sort of exhaust (to minimise or avoid the external vulnerabilities), or possibly some sort of "heat cannon" that ejects super-heated projectiles (but requires consumable ammo to store the heat being ejected). This would require some "coolant plumbing" to connect the engines/reactors to whatever is being used to dispose of heat. Solar energy wouldn't create heat because it's on the exterior anyway (making it much nicer for smaller ships where you can't afford the space for a cooling system).

    I'd also want a second type of thruster. The existing thrusters would use electricity/power and wouldn't generate heat; and the new type of thruster would use fuel (and not power) and would generate heat (and would need to be connected via. "coolant pipes" to something that can get rid of the heat).

    This gives the ship designer multiple options. Do you use "solar only" and have no running costs (but add an exterior vulnerability)? Do you use a larger engine/reactor and powered thrusters with higher power regen (but running costs)? Do you use a smaller engine/reactor and fuelled thrusters with less size/weight (but with even higher running costs and "sluggish" thruster response and less power available for weapons/shields)? Do you want cheap external radiators (that add another external vulnerability) or an expensive internal cooling system or a cheap and small cooling system ("heat cannon") that increases running costs (consumable projectiles)?

    All of these options are better/worse for different types of ships. For a small civilian ship you probably want solar only with powered thrusters (and no cooling system and no running costs). For a larger civilian ship you probably want a small engine (for shield and weak weapons) plus solar to reduce running costs, fueled thrusters and external radiators. For a military support ship you probably want a smaller engine, no solar, fueled thrusters and internal radiators (no external vulnerabilities, higher running costs). For a military warship or fighter you probably want a large engine (for large weapons and shield), no solar, powered thrusters (because you have large engine anyway) and internal radiators plus a "heat cannon" (in case heat builds up too much). For a cloaker, let's assume other ships can detect heat from your radiators or exhaust (at a smaller range than radar), so if the ship is small enough you want solar with powered thrusters (so there is no heat) and if the ship is too large for that (because solar doesn't give you a lot of regen) maybe you need "heat cannon" (so that the heat other ships detect is all in fast moving small projectiles and not where the ship actually is).
     
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    Well they have Fusion reactors for back up and auxiliary power. The warp core generates most power for the ship under normal operations since it's just a matter/antimatter engine for the most part.
    Okay I understand now. So they should also add Anti Matter Reactors and Matter Reactors.
     

    Matt_Bradock

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    Make no mistakes, I like well performing ship. I also like ships with nice detailed interior. What I like most, is having both, because THAT is the challenge.
    AND PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD KEEP THAT CHALLENGE.
    There HAS TO be some space for individual skill in terms of making a ship look good AND do good. What needs to be done is allowing a nice looking ship, inside and outside, to perform on a very similar level as a doomcube of the same mass, BUT not unless you really put thought and time into it. Keep shipbuilding a challenge. Do not take away the effort from making a nice looking AND nice performing vessel.

    The system I proposed several posts ago offers space for individual pilot skills as well as cooperation. The power distribution settings could allow a pilot to fly safe and limit available power to keep the reactors from overloading, OR in a heated battle or upon loss of some radiators, hit the override and go "Giving all she's got, Captain!" to finish off a dangerous opponent or just to squeeze the extra juice in to GTFO, but risking a meltdown "Nothing to lose" style. And the power conduit/heat conduit placement provides the necessary complexity and weak points that still make building a good performing ship a challenge, but without requiring to waste as many blocks on raw system power.
    I personally welcome if less system blocks are needed, but more clumped together. Gives a ship weak points that promote good piloting and make a lucky hit feel much more impactful (right now, the only critical hit is if you hit a computer or enough power lines on a smaller ship)

    Combined with a good Crew mechanic, I can imagine the NPC engineers rushing to a damaged power conduit in a desperate attempt to repair it and bring the system it powered back online, before it's too late.
     
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    I think I'm about to repeat things that have probably been said already, but here goes. I'm also going to preface this by saying that it is propulsion and not power that give me headaches, but my ships also tend to be more RP/PvE style, so my opinion is going to reflect my style.

    My suggestion would be to remove soft capping of power. You want a km long Titan with 10mil e/sec regen? if you can make the bounding box work, you can do it.
    I also think different *kinds* of power are needed. Leave the existing generators in place, but add some other options: High recovery generation that goes boom if you hit it. Low recovery systems that are inert. This gives users a lot more freedom to choose a mix that works for them.

    That being said, as a counter-balance to removing the caps, make heat a thing. Thrust, power generation and weapons fire should all generate heat. This heat can be "stored" for a time, maybe by a special storage block, but eventually needs to be vented via a heat sink block that can be toggled on/off, and has to be placed on the outside of the ship's hull.

    As a further counterbalance, I think that while the sink is active, maybe the shields in the immediate area around the sink do not block weapons fire. this would do two things; It would prevent people from just covering their entire ship in heat sinks and make then think about placement, and allow for "weak spots" that an opponent can target.



    Regardless of my thoughts above on a "better system", I think changing power to heat is the wrong way to go about this. Maybe its a case of "being too used to something" but when we think of SciFI ship systems, we think of power, thrust, shields and weapons. Not having power just seems...wrong
     
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    I Would just go through with this Proposal, It sounds like it is really thought out. It also sounds like there will be no Problems with the Power in the future. There might be the occasional bug but from the sounds of it to me the way you plan on it. I think it would be a Great Upgrade For Starmade. And it would probably attract more Sci Fi Sandbox people to the game.

    In my opinion. I think you guys should start coding it, and start looking at the Suggestions for what you should add and fix.

    My main opinion to make this game more Sci - Fi with using this one new feature if you decide to code this, is to add different types or kinds of Reactors that you can make. So that people can decide what reactor they want to put into their ship and the different kind of reactors could have different features such as a Fusion Reactor could be used for Auxiliary Power and Backup Systems.

    And then their could be other kinds of reactors, like from Sci Fi shows, such as Star Trek, BattleStar Galactica, and Deep Space Nine?

    I think this could make this game more creative and more of a Sci Fi Sandbox game than a strip of power.

    I believe that adding this feature would not only make the game more easier to play, but less of a hassle to have so large amounts of Power Strips or Power Cubes when you could just have around 1 Reactor and your ship is powered.

    I could understand from some peoples perspectives that this proposal may sound more complex from the current power systems. But if you really think about it would you rather have a 100 x 100 x 100 Power Cube instead of a 10 x 10 x 10 Reactor which is equlivant to a 100 x 100 x 100 Power cube.
     

    Edymnion

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    Love the idea of making actual system groupings this way.

    I would also like to see power conduits be a thing, as in a block that actually carries power from the reactor to the systems. Gotta actually lay some cable from the reactor to the weapons on the other side of the ship.

    I'd also like to see shields generate heat whenever they absorb damage. That way its not just about having tons of shields and enough regen to cover them, constant pounding on the shields would cause heat buildup that needs to be dissipated, meaning it would be possible to overload a ship's shields without actually having to brute force your way through them.

    ---

    But overall? My vote is DO IT.

    We all knew this was an alpha going in, and anyone who whines about older ships being broken need to realize that fact. Its an alpha, things change, a lot. Don't get married to anything right now, because most of it likely won't be here when we're done.

    So yeah, do it.
     
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    Love the idea of making actual system groupings this way.

    I would also like to see power conduits be a thing, as in a block that actually carries power from the reactor to the systems. Gotta actually lay some cable from the reactor to the weapons on the other side of the ship.

    I'd also like to see shields generate heat whenever they absorb damage. That way its not just about having tons of shields and enough regen to cover them, constant pounding on the shields would cause heat buildup that needs to be dissipated, meaning it would be possible to overload a ship's shields without actually having to brute force your way through them.

    ---

    But overall? My vote is DO IT.

    We all knew this was an alpha going in, and anyone who whines about older ships being broken need to realize that fact. Its an alpha, things change, a lot. Don't get married to anything right now, because most of it likely won't be here when we're done.

    So yeah, do it.
    I AM WITH YOU DUDE | DO IT.

    Because the game is in Alpha, and we should all agree we should fix the Power Systems now or it will never be fixed.
    So, We should never get married to anything. Like I never get use to the Game, because I don't want to get to know it and then the next morning when I wake up it is completely all changed. Sometimes it is just life and you have to deal with it.

    I believe like half of the people who play Starmade Who don't want this update to go through is because they are use to the old system, and just like selling house's they make up excuse's so that it doesn't happen.

    I am not trying to make people feel bad, I am just backing up on Don't Get Married To Anything Right Now. And If I did hurt someone's feelings or anything I don't have any intention to do it. So don't worry.

    If you want a easier gameplay of Starmade and a More Easy way to make Power For Your Ships!

    THEN VOTE YES!

    BECAUSE THIS IS THE BEST THING FOR STARMADE!

     

    Ithirahad

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    Personally, I'm actually quite happy to gut my 2 corvettes, 2 frigates, 1 destroyer, 1 cruiser, and 1 battlecruiser that's due for a refit anyway... Just as long as the new system is not worse than what we have now. The slightly scarier prospect is having to refit my interiors if the new reactor stuff looks good enough to incorporate into my interior. :P
     
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    The possabilities seem like this will make certain things really feasible that originally weren't although, i had no problem with the power systems in place and fitting them in my models. So i'm going to be extremely miffed at refitting. If this is going to be done, i hope the tutorials are laymans terms in-depth so myself and newer players who are not good with this kind of calculating don't have to scrounge youtube to figure out the perfect system that works for us.

    How long until this happens? how much time do we have before the power systems completely turn around. If a time hasn't been set yet, I'd hope focus is put in other places before we go back to ship-mechanic cosmetics and functions.
     

    Spartan4845

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    Okay I understand now. So they should also add Anti Matter Reactors and Matter Reactors.
    Well if they did that'd be cool, but Any reactor would be fine. Even if we can't eject part of it I might still remake my eject able warp core to use again.
     

    Edymnion

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    Something else I'd like to see, fixed coolant transfer rates per block.

    Combine that with weapons throwing off a lot of heat when used would mean the bigger your weapon array, the exponentially larger the amount of coolant pipes you need to safely channel that heat away from them.

    Which means huge weapon banks become impractical, which leads to smaller weapons. Which means you no longer need millions of shields, which means armor becomes usable again, and you get a solid downward pressure to move us away from gigantism.

    Sure, you could still build a Death Star sized weapon, but 90% of it would be coolant tanks and piping. Which would mean damaging said coolant tanks/piping would lead to the ship/station overheating, letting you actually do Star Wars trench run style attacks to disable the thing without relying on brute force to destroy half of it.
     
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    NeonSturm

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    I posted five minutes ago how the scupper are there already six more posts
    1 minute, 1 page … impossible to catch up :)

    But this is an "information exchange organisation problem", not a problem of moderation.

    7+ new threads discussing single parts of the proposal which are not linked in the OP

    many peoples asking the same because

    1. they didn't read the op carefully,
    2. they read wrong assumptions from another poster
    3. they do not quote to who they respond to
     
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