New Power DEV Thread

    Edymnion

    Carebear Extraordinaire!
    Joined
    Mar 18, 2015
    Messages
    2,709
    Reaction score
    1,512
    • Purchased!
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    • Legacy Citizen 5
    Aside from reduced block spam, I really am struggling to what is gained in terms of basic mechanics by losing capacity+regen...any clues anybody?
    It bears repeating that this is a first iteration dev build. They're mostly testing to see that the thing works. Things like actual number balancing, getting displays and tooltips updated, etc comes after that.

    So yeah, it is going to be difficult to tell whats going on because a lot of the info needed isn't going to be properly set up and accessible yet.
     

    Top 4ce

    Force or Ace?
    Joined
    Jul 25, 2013
    Messages
    527
    Reaction score
    274
    • Competition Winner - Small Fleets
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Legacy Citizen 9
    Generally in the Dev Build, i am finding the new capacity-less power draw system to be more complicated to know whats going on and what needs what power, compared to old XYZ - there is no clear correlation between the power draw reported in the weapons menu, and what is perceived in flight-mode when a weapon fires- there is no clear logic to the passive power draw either - fitting systems is even more guesswork than before....

    It is no easier than before to add systems, eg to find that the passive draw even when not in use is potential causing power problems elsewhere

    I am very unclear what has been gained by dropping capacity vs regen as a concept; new system does not better match anything intuitive, nor does it in way way relate to engineering (expect for perhaps for purely electric 'devices'). I can see that there was some block spam, and i can see that NPC AI had some issues with using more than 45% of capacity in a single shot .... but what else? easier to make calculations in regard of NPC AI 'defensive' effects ?

    Aside from reduced block spam, I really am struggling to what is gained in terms of basic mechanics by losing capacity+regen...any clues anybody?
    The reactor tab shows the draw of power of each system. Giving you a good understanding between what you need and what your making.
     

    Ithirahad

    Arana'Aethi
    Joined
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages
    4,152
    Reaction score
    1,330
    • Purchased!
    • Top Forum Contributor
    • Legacy Citizen 8
    The reactor tab shows the draw of power of each system. Giving you a good understanding between what you need and what your making.
    ...Except thrusters, and anything that has to be 'in use' to draw power.
     

    lupoCani

    First Citizen
    Joined
    Jun 23, 2013
    Messages
    504
    Reaction score
    127
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 10
    Aside from reduced block spam, I really am struggling to what is gained in terms of basic mechanics by losing capacity+regen...any clues anybody?
    It is relevant, I think, that basically everything besides guns was practically like that already. Power is generated continuously by reactors, and drawn continuously by systems. Only weapons, as far as I can recall, actually ate power in big chunks at a time as opposed to tick-by-tick. Thus, capacity was little more than a balancing mechanic for high-alpha weapons.

    Mind you, capacity hasn't been removed as such. Even in this new system, we can imagine a battery mechanic that drains power until full, and then supplies power until empty. It just doesn't function as the conduit through which power is distributed anymore.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Ithirahad
    Joined
    Jun 20, 2013
    Messages
    2,827
    Reaction score
    1,181
    • Video Genius
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    • Top Forum Contributor
    Generally in the Dev Build, i am finding the new capacity-less power draw system to be more complicated to know whats going on and what needs what power, compared to old XYZ - there is no clear correlation between the power draw reported in the weapons menu, and what is perceived in flight-mode when a weapon fires- there is no clear logic to the passive power draw either - fitting systems is even more guesswork than before....

    It is no easier than before to add systems, eg to find that the passive draw even when not in use is potential causing power problems elsewhere

    I am very unclear what has been gained by dropping capacity vs regen as a concept; new system does not better match anything intuitive, nor does it in way way relate to engineering (expect for perhaps for purely electric 'devices'). I can see that there was some block spam, and i can see that NPC AI had some issues with using more than 45% of capacity in a single shot .... but what else? easier to make calculations in regard of NPC AI 'defensive' effects ?

    Aside from reduced block spam, I really am struggling to what is gained in terms of basic mechanics by losing capacity+regen...any clues anybody?
    agreed, I don't understand why capacity system was dropped. just seems more complicated.
     
    Joined
    Feb 21, 2015
    Messages
    228
    Reaction score
    145
    Ok, thanks - I see the points about 'alpha weapons' and display updates for Dev build - But storage of energy is such a crucial real world concept (eg batteries for national power grids, electric cars, your hand-help communication device, etc) that I feel dropping it from the game mechanics as an explicit concept to build with is not positive (for example in terms of intuition for 'how to build').

    Are there any other benefits to code and calculations by dropping explicit-capacity? Or other programming/meta-game design related benefits?

    If not, then, in regard of issues raised about capacitors for 'alpha weapons' and redundancy of capacitors at other times (as mentioned above), would it not be better (for sake of a game with deep build mechanics) to make explicit-capacity mean more, rather than drop it completely?
     
    Joined
    Jan 1, 2015
    Messages
    923
    Reaction score
    292
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Purchased!
    • Thinking Positive
    agreed, I don't understand why capacity system was dropped. just seems more complicated.
    Yea, and it seems to have greatly exacerbated the problems with weapon balancing now. Building a ship that stored it's damage for 45 seconds so as to deliver all it's DPS in one shield annihilating punch, used to require a very substantial investment in batteries that other weapons did not need. That helped balance things greatly. Now you don't need those batteries. In theory you don't even need more than the maintenance trickle power. You can build a ship that requires twenty minutes or more to recharge it's missiles, but it won't matter, because you will have obliterated any conceivable opponent with just your first shot.

    Oops.
     
    Joined
    Jul 10, 2013
    Messages
    626
    Reaction score
    486
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 7
    Well maybe not. If you miss or if the opponent survive then you are left with your ship unable to do anything but recharge for twenty minutes. Or you switch reactor but the second one is usually lees powerfull than the main one. Jump chamber on the second so you can run :P
     
    Joined
    Jan 1, 2015
    Messages
    923
    Reaction score
    292
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Purchased!
    • Thinking Positive
    Well maybe not. If you miss or if the opponent survive then you are left with your ship unable to do anything but recharge for twenty minutes. Or you switch reactor but the second one is usually lees powerfull than the main one. Jump chamber on the second so you can run :P
    Hundreds of missile/beam seekers coming all at once dealing billions of damage... Nothing will survive. Nothing.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: TrainDodger
    Joined
    Aug 3, 2016
    Messages
    187
    Reaction score
    96
    Seems like stealth will be the new go-to for defense, probably for stations too, at least for a while.
    This stands to show how important it is not to be seen.
     
    Joined
    Jun 17, 2015
    Messages
    300
    Reaction score
    90
    The best defense is not to be there...

    I need to sit down and make some ridiculous ships it seems. See how out of whack the meta really is. My squarish ships are already very sad. Time to build some long and skinny death bombs.
     
    Joined
    Jul 17, 2013
    Messages
    97
    Reaction score
    27
    Hundreds of missile/beam seekers coming all at once dealing billions of damage... Nothing will survive. Nothing.
    I've made some point-defense setups that were really effective at taming missile spam. Ages ago, I did this one ugly little civilian tug/recovery ship once (The IMX Tomahawk) that had a couple dozen high-powered "inline shredder-style" (alternating primary and secondary blocks in a single line) AMS turrets, and I experimentally launched hundreds of missiles at it, and it swatted them all down in seconds. Pirates looking for a quick freighter gank would be hard-pressed to get through this point-defense net:


     

    Gasboy

    BLRP
    Joined
    Aug 11, 2013
    Messages
    1,312
    Reaction score
    361
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Legacy Citizen 6
    • Purchased!
    I've made some point-defense setups that were really effective at taming missile spam. Ages ago, I did this one ugly little civilian tug/recovery ship once (The IMX Tomahawk) that had a couple dozen high-powered "inline shredder-style" (alternating primary and secondary blocks in a single line) AMS turrets, and I experimentally launched hundreds of missiles at it, and it swatted them all down in seconds. Pirates looking for a quick freighter gank would be hard-pressed to get through this point-defense net:


    It works in practice only when you have a sturdy computer, or are playing on a good server. One bit of lag, and you'll get eaten alive.
     

    CyberTao

    鬼佬
    Joined
    Nov 10, 2013
    Messages
    2,564
    Reaction score
    641
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    • Railman Gold
    • Thinking Positive
    Its amazing how many people here have their head so far up schines ass they think they can read their thoughts.

    Power storage never should have been dropped, it was a critical part of balancing. How in the world they can think they'll work around not having it without changing the entire baseline of balance is beyond me.
     
    Joined
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages
    492
    Reaction score
    149
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    It works in practice only when you have a sturdy computer, or are playing on a good server. One bit of lag, and you'll get eaten alive.
    The server AI aim setting has a lot to do with it. That effects Anti Missile Defense to.

    The default StarMade setting is basicly aim to miss.
     
    Joined
    Jan 19, 2017
    Messages
    8
    Reaction score
    3
    The best defense is not to be there...

    I need to sit down and make some ridiculous ships it seems. See how out of whack the meta really is. My squarish ships are already very sad. Time to build some long and skinny death bombs.
    Some numbers, to consider:
    - Ship ~700 with reactors and stabilized arranged in sphere of 75 block radius, can generate 180 000 000 e/s (180 million)
    - Single nuke combo (missile + pulse + explosive) require 27000 e per shot, with reload time of 90 seconds, that deal 10800 damage.

    If we building ship that need to reload for 20 minutes, we can recharge 8000000 such nukes, with total damage of 86 400 000 000 (86 billion).
    (180000000*20*60)/27000 = 8000000 (8 millions)
    8000000 * 10800 = 86 400 000 000 (86 billions)

    Nothing can survive this alpha strike. And AMS does not save you from other types of weapons.
     
    Last edited:
    Joined
    Jul 17, 2013
    Messages
    97
    Reaction score
    27
    What's going on with turrets? I can't get them to move manually in the dev builds. Makes them impossible to test. I was working on a corvette with some beefy anti-fighter side guns.

    The server AI aim setting has a lot to do with it. That effects Anti Missile Defense to.

    The default StarMade setting is basicly aim to miss.
    The same AI difficulty setting that makes turrets more effective as AMS also makes pirates more accurate, too, so a lot of servers keep it at the default or even turn it down, rendering AMS useless and missile spam very effective. Lag also contributes to inaccuracy. What works locally doesn't always work on a server.
     

    Edymnion

    Carebear Extraordinaire!
    Joined
    Mar 18, 2015
    Messages
    2,709
    Reaction score
    1,512
    • Purchased!
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    • Legacy Citizen 5
    Some numbers, to consider:
    - Ship ~700 with reactors and stabilized arranged in sphere of 75 block radius, can generate 180 000 000 e/s (180 million)
    - Single nuke combo (missile + pulse + explosive) require 27000 e per shot, with reload time of 90 seconds, that deal 10800 damage.

    If we building ship that need to reload for 20 minutes, we can recharge 8000000 such nukes, with total damage of 86 400 000 000 (86 billion).
    (180000000*20*60)/27000 = 8000000 (8 millions)
    8000000 * 10800 = 86 400 000 000 (86 billions)

    Nothing can survive this alpha strike. And AMS does not save you from other types of weapons.
    And you could build this same thing now with missile/missile arrays on docked entities with their own 2 million e/sec generators all tied to a wireless remote and an inner ship remote.

    Jump in, hit the remote, have all the fake turrets fire, crash the server or destroy the target in one button press.