New Power DEV Thread

    G

    GDPR 302420

    Guest
    nightrune It's in your best interests to read this and communicate to the rest of Schine.

    No, this change is certainly dumbing it down - in fact, I feel like my intelligence is being insulted. The old power system was quite simple and allowed flexibility for efficient design in virtually any hull - the baseline "efficient" 2mil e/s generation, a set of long lines of reactors in a "checkerboard" pattern (IE no line was adjacent to another) was dead simple and effortless to make. If you understood what exactly was making your power generation more efficient per block (increasing the box dimensions of a reactor group with the fewest amount of blocks possible, EG straight lines in the X Y and Z directions or one very long one in one direction) you could get your 2mil e/s in a very, very small amount of mass. I think mathematically the minimum was well under 200 mass.

    This was a problem. While it supported aesthetics-focused builders by allowing you to fit basically however much power you wanted into virtually any ship, it also made meta PVP builders' lives fairly simple and fairly easily. The most efficient setups for power were grids of power lines not connected whatsoever. Such a ship is nearly impossible to hit and while its box dimensions (what you're basing your power generation on now) are extreme, often quite similar to a ship well over 10x or 20x its size, its mass was not at all comparable - I have a 5k mass ship whose box dimensions are similar if not larger than a 150k mass ship. See the mismatch? Basing your efficiency on geometry such as this is a mistake in a three dimensional game where utilized internal volume (in layman's terms, weight/mass) is far more important than the dimensions of the ship thereof. I had hoped Schine had identified this problem and the new power system would address and fix this.

    It did not. In fact, it's done exactly the opposite. Not only does this suffer from precisely the same problems the old system did, it exacerbates them - instead of having to worry only about the distance between two points three times per reactor group, I only have to worry about the distance between two points once. My work load for building power on ships has been decreased by 66%, which is quite sizeable. On top of that, it now punishes aesthetic builders - as mentioned, numerous examples exist now of people being unable to even utilize their old ships even with the changes to power costs. Edymnion mentions that expecting to refit should not be a problem - it isn't, what is a problem is having to trash ship hulls because they mathematically and geometrically cannot support their previous systems; this is called a downgrade, not an upgrade or even a sidegrade.

    Contrary to popular belief here, myself and other "meta PVP" builders do care about the community - this update makes our lives vastly easier, but at the expense of everyone else, which is most certainly a problem and like any change that negatively affects the game, we are going to talk about it until your eyes get sore. FlyingDebris was able to make a testbed ship that did 14,000,000,000 (billion - count those zeroes) damage at ~300k mass within about 30 minutes of playing the dev build. No legitimately built ship in StarMade has 14,000,000,000 shields, ion or not - regardless of size. If this is working as intended for Schine, this ship has already sank and found a comfy spot on the sea floor.

    I said this before when this was merely a proposal, but if Schine is going to ignore me and people like me, we'll just utilize your system to the best of our abilities, and then perhaps instead of us you'll listen to the people who complain about us. This isn't about nuance, this is about absolutely obliterating any semblance of balance you once had in ship design. If there was a divide between meta PVP ships and RP ships, it's turned into a god damn cosmic gulf between galaxies now. I cannot emphasize how much of a mistake this is for keeping 98% of your player base satisfied and happy.
    You hit the nail on the head Zyrr.

    To Schine: Take heed of the words of the meta builders on balance above all else. They have been here longer, know what they are talking about and actually play the game.

    The words of a meta builder on balance are more valuable then 1000 RP builders.
     

    Gasboy

    BLRP
    Joined
    Aug 11, 2013
    Messages
    1,311
    Reaction score
    360
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Legacy Citizen 6
    • Purchased!
    So yeah. It seems I found a bug. I can charge the jump drive. But as soon as it charges, that's it. It will not jump. I exit the game, load it up again, and the jump drive is about 75% full or so. It will charge up, but it won't jump. >.>
     

    DrTarDIS

    Eldrich Timelord
    Joined
    Jan 16, 2014
    Messages
    1,114
    Reaction score
    310
    So yeah. It seems I found a bug. I can charge the jump drive. But as soon as it charges, that's it. It will not jump. I exit the game, load it up again, and the jump drive is about 75% full or so. It will charge up, but it won't jump. >.>
    ;) ⚡ Create Bug Task
     
    Joined
    Jul 17, 2013
    Messages
    97
    Reaction score
    27
    That 14 billion damage ship wasn't even optimized. I was literally just throwing system blocks together. That number could easily be doubled, maybe tripled with vastly more hull damage too due to the way missiles work.
    I was telling people, long before the power update came out, "Oh wow, this makes high alpha damage weapons super-duper overpowered". See, the problem with making teeny little bombers effective against capitals is that the same thing that makes their weapons effective will make a capital ship's weapons into planet-busters.
     

    Gasboy

    BLRP
    Joined
    Aug 11, 2013
    Messages
    1,311
    Reaction score
    360
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Legacy Citizen 6
    • Purchased!
    Has anyone noticed that the ship remote does not appear in the weapons screen, so you cannot add to the hotbar? And the ship core cannot be added either, meaning you cannot use the ship core to open bay doors.
     
    Joined
    Feb 27, 2014
    Messages
    1,074
    Reaction score
    504
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    • Top Forum Contributor
    the OPPOSITE to the current system. Use the convex hull distance calculations and make stabilisers have to be within a certain radius of the reactor to work. Bigger reactors have a larger working radius to go by, with the smallest reactors requiring the stabalizers to be practically adjacent, medium reactors having a leeway of a dozen blocks or so, etc. CERTAINLY NOT the current distance requirements.

    I'd also give all system blocks 1-10 reactor HP (Armour and Deco have 0 or some other way to balance "sponge tanking") and make all reactor parts have high Reactor HP. This means that damage will eventually hurt a ship, but not disable it as fast as nailing the reactor.

    An inverse of this system would allow some small distance between reactors and the stabalizers. Enough for an RP player to build around and plan for: If not, he can just replace a portion of the reactor with a stabaliser.
    Some really good ideas being throwen about.
    My thougths on this are simply that why do we need stabilizors (in their current config) anyway? You could remove them and decrease reactor output a bit and nothing would change imo. Thats like needing to place ice-crystals behind your thrusters or they don't work cause 'reasons'.
    Reactor HP would also be an intersting way of approching this. Having different effects applied on the ship at different Reactor HP %'s, and maybe have the whole thing explode if it isn't turned off before it reaches (x)%. I guess that would promote long skinny reactors however, or reactors seperated from the ship (e.g having backup reactors on long poles).
     

    Napther

    Grumpy builder of Kaiju Design Initiative
    Joined
    Feb 7, 2015
    Messages
    192
    Reaction score
    180
    • Competition Winner - Small Fleets
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    Some really good ideas being throwen about.
    My thougths on this are simply that why do we need stabilizors (in their current config) anyway? You could remove them and decrease reactor output a bit and nothing would change imo. Thats like needing to place ice-crystals behind your thrusters or they don't work cause 'reasons'.
    Reactor HP would also be an intersting way of approching this. Having different effects applied on the ship at different Reactor HP %'s, and maybe have the whole thing explode if it isn't turned off before it reaches (x)%.
    Except that Stabilisers, I think, would be 1/2 of the power to the main reactor itself. By allowing them to be separated by some small to medium radius, RP Builders may have a central, closed reactor Chamber, then have the stabilisers inside an adjacent closed chamber or hidden above the hull that makes up the interior. It extends somewhat the usability than having to have 1 connected mass of Reactor to get the power you want.

    This also plays into the PvP builders by allowing them to either clump reactor components together in 1 area, or spread them out a little round the hull to decentralise the amount of damage they take to someone focusing the core part of their reactor. Still doesnt solve the thing of if you nail the reactor, you can potentially absolutely cripple its power output even if you dont overheat the ship if you destroy the reactor, but fail destroy chambers and stabilisers which still amke up a good portion of the ship's R-HP.

    As for Exploding. I guess? But thats what the Overheat timer is for anyway. Ships are just /destroy_entity when the timer goes and they poof out of existence. At 9/10 overheat timer the reactor detonates and causes damage to the ship, whats left can be salvaged anyway.
    Or maybe just change the Overheat mechanic totally that a ship enters shut down, and if the reactor is destroyed it then enters Overheat and deleted at the end. But thats not for this topic.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Gasboy
    Joined
    Dec 30, 2013
    Messages
    34
    Reaction score
    12
    • Legacy Citizen
    I don't care about balancing when it comes to numbers, and neither should all of you. Let Schine figure that out. (or you read my last post here and realize it would fix ship designing without adjusting any numbers, well except hull but thats different). Stabilizers are here to stay so there's no point in complaining, and the power will likely stay the same.

    Also, is there a place to see any patch notes for the new dev updates?
     
    Joined
    Jun 20, 2013
    Messages
    2,827
    Reaction score
    1,181
    • Video Genius
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    • Top Forum Contributor
    I don't care about balancing when it comes to numbers, and neither should all of you... especially how my last post was completely ignored.
    no matter what nubmers they put, unless the distance between stabilizers and reactors is neglible, still gonna promote disgusting ship designs.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Ithirahad
    Joined
    Dec 30, 2013
    Messages
    34
    Reaction score
    12
    • Legacy Citizen
    Stabalizers are ok, we just need two major changes to fix everything:
    -Make Shields only apply to hull, armor, and doors.
    -Make All forms of systems explode.
    Asking to remove stabilizers is like sushi without seaweed. Yeah it's gross but it holds it together, and makes sushi, a sushi.
     
    Last edited:
    • Like
    Reactions: Xskyth
    Joined
    Jul 10, 2013
    Messages
    626
    Reaction score
    486
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 7
    One thing is certain - unless something is changed, the new reactor-stabilizer combo will favor ugly stick-ships even more that the old system did.
    Quite the irony, considering the reasons why this new system was being introduced.
    have you tried the latest dev build yet ?

    Also seaweed in sushi is fine, you just have shit taste.
    Yet it seems you eat it nonetheless...
     

    Gasboy

    BLRP
    Joined
    Aug 11, 2013
    Messages
    1,311
    Reaction score
    360
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Legacy Citizen 6
    • Purchased!
    How about we all stop the insults and get back to discussing the dev build?

    Go have your hate circle jerk somewhere else, pls.
     
    Joined
    Jun 20, 2013
    Messages
    2,827
    Reaction score
    1,181
    • Video Genius
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    • Top Forum Contributor
    One thing is certain - unless something is changed, the new reactor-stabilizer combo will favor ugly stick-ships even more that the old system did.
    Quite the irony, considering the reasons why this new system was being introduced.

    Yeah, let's fuck over everyone who doesn't build huge slabs of armor with thrusters.
    Why the would you even use shields then? In fact, this ain't a shield anyway but rather a glorified armor.
    This got to be one of the stupidest ideas I've ever saw, and I've seen plenty already.


    Even if you are such a spineless eunuch please don't expect others to fall to your level.
    Some of us still have the balls to tell Schine in the face that they're making stupid decisions.
    Why don't you lie down and wait to die of natural cause already, since you're being so apathetic, with heavy emphasis on pathetic.
    Also seaweed in sushi is fine, you just have shit taste.
    I agree with you, but tone it down a little.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Xskyth
    Joined
    Sep 18, 2014
    Messages
    621
    Reaction score
    448
    I was telling people, long before the power update came out, "Oh wow, this makes high alpha damage weapons super-duper overpowered". See, the problem with making teeny little bombers effective against capitals is that the same thing that makes their weapons effective will make a capital ship's weapons into planet-busters.
    Who said it was alpha weapons ?
     
    Joined
    Jul 10, 2013
    Messages
    626
    Reaction score
    486
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 7



    Why are docks taking forever to charge up - never seen them at 100% as well. What are they anyway ? I have no rail dock on my ship. I have plenty of turret dock. The number 1144 correspond to the number of rail mass enhancers i have onboard, is that what this number refers to ?
     
    Joined
    Jun 23, 2013
    Messages
    584
    Reaction score
    130
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 7
    One thing is certain - unless something is changed, the new reactor-stabilizer combo will favor ugly stick-ships even more that the old system did.
    Quite the irony, considering the reasons why this new system was being introduced.

    Yeah, let's fuck over everyone who doesn't build huge slabs of armor with thrusters.
    Why the would you even use shields then? In fact, this ain't a shield anyway but rather a glorified armor.
    This got to be one of the stupidest ideas I've ever saw, and I've seen plenty already.


    Even if you are such a spineless eunuch please don't expect others to fall to your level.
    Some of us still have the balls to tell Schine in the face that they're making stupid decisions.
    Why don't you lie down and wait to die of natural cause already, since you're being so apathetic, with heavy emphasis on pathetic.
    Also seaweed in sushi is fine, you just have shit taste.
    Dude are you serious? It's just a game and we are discussing. Don't blow off steam in public forums, no one cares about your psychological problems.
     

    Gasboy

    BLRP
    Joined
    Aug 11, 2013
    Messages
    1,311
    Reaction score
    360
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Legacy Citizen 6
    • Purchased!



    Why are docks taking forever to charge up - never seen them at 100% as well. What are they anyway ? I have no rail dock on my ship. I have plenty of turret dock. The number 1144 correspond to the number of rail mass enhancers i have onboard, is that what this number refers to ?
    I do think that there may be something off with the number.

    However, I don't know if it will get to 100%. That number could represent how much power is being used for docks compared to the total amount of power the docks could potentially use, perhaps? Try undocking stuff and see if the number changes. I'm going to do that tonight on a ship I am refitting, just to see.
     
    Joined
    Feb 21, 2015
    Messages
    228
    Reaction score
    145
    Generally in the Dev Build, i am finding the new capacity-less power draw system to be more complicated to know whats going on and what needs what power, compared to old XYZ - there is no clear correlation between the power draw reported in the weapons menu, and what is perceived in flight-mode when a weapon fires- there is no clear logic to the passive power draw either - fitting systems is even more guesswork than before....

    It is no easier than before to add systems, eg to find that the passive draw even when not in use is potential causing power problems elsewhere

    I am very unclear what has been gained by dropping capacity vs regen as a concept; new system does not better match anything intuitive, nor does it in way way relate to engineering (expect for perhaps for purely electric 'devices'). I can see that there was some block spam, and i can see that NPC AI had some issues with using more than 45% of capacity in a single shot .... but what else? easier to make calculations in regard of NPC AI 'defensive' effects ?

    Aside from reduced block spam, I really am struggling to what is gained in terms of basic mechanics by losing capacity+regen...any clues anybody?