MicroMade - Modded StarMade

[Matt_Bradock]

(assuming it doesn't cause rages/ragequits like the guy above.)

Wow. Apparently I quit before the server even started. Good to know.
To me it kind of seemed like this is some elaborate trolling aimed at the gigantomaniacs of Starmade, but then you started putting actual work into it, and I also decided to seriously observe the viability of a server built around microships, although after seeing a server with similar intent but a much better playable mass limit (Minimade) die, and how the current AI behaves in combat, the concept of 100 mass limit seems too extreme to be practical. Especially how some systems scale (for example, the power-hungry jump drives) and how some weapon systems behave (guided missile systems). It will certainly be a unique environment, that is for sure, but pretty much prohibits or severely restricts some core features of the game. I will probably give it a try, but not with high hopes after seeing Minimade fall to disinterest after so many positive initial reactions.

 

[DrTarDIS]

Your reaction is noted, and will be taken into consideration when I get to tuning settings.

Still, since I guess we won't be seeing you based on the response, have fun wherever you choose to play!



This is also good to know. What I might need to do is tune things so that AIs choose to come closer, for the PvE side of things. Additionally, your experience is consistent with my local experiments - the low mass limit will lead to small profiles that are nigh-impossible to fight at maximum range, so that may also change player behavior a little bit as well (assuming it doesn't cause rages/ragequits like the guy above.)

The potential for ragequits due to being unable to hit stuff is potentially problematic, and a gameplay issue I will be keeping a very close eye on.

The fighting will entirely revolve around the 3 major points:
max speed (with overdrive)
weapon range (variable coeficient of sector size)
projectile speed(variable coefficient of server speed)

Max speed & sector size is set in the generic config, weapons are set individually in blockbehaviourconfig.

Generally speaking, the longer your weapons range, compensate with lower max speed or faster projectile speed(or both).
Higher max speeds make beam and guided-missiles the go-to weapons IMHO.

increasing sector sizes helps to deal with the "sector border lag" you see in kulboken's video.

range&speed modifiers per weapon are in the block config(.../data/config/blockBehaviourconfig.xml) find "<Distance>" and "<Speed>", Then do math vs sector size and max speed to ind out what it ends up being.

I'd personally think all ranges should be kept under 5km at the longest(fully beam-enhanced) and max speed fully overdriven at 300 or less, but that's me. The basic "balance" between things makes about 1/3 the weapons totally ineffective. A weird absence to the "normal" sector-size-based range of weapons is the "<DamagePulse>" which has a fixed radius in blocks. IMHO that need to move from 10 to something like 50 or 100 to be viable in most servers, but that might not be the case if micromade is slow& short-ranged enough.

 

[Asvarduil]

So, some positive developments

1. I got the Data Core working with a SQLite database. The only thing I don't like is the latency - my 'Unit Tests' of my datacore tend to be working in the range of ~800ms - 1 second. I definitely need to tighten up performance of the backend.
2. I got my backend to be able to open Starmade, and issue a / command to it (specifically, /shutdown 30). I don't have to do the weird Unix 'Screen' trick, and/or read the server log file; I can just have my program scan the standard output. That simplifies things greatly.

All I have to do is start implementing ! commands for the mod, and testing them out by connecting to my own server. The backend isn't solved, yet, but it's looking pretty good so far. My Sunday progress report might be pretty positive.

 

[jayman38]

I've read that SQLite is optimized for Transactions. The following reads may be helpful to tight up performance.

SQLite Insert very slow?

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-SQLite-so-slow

 

[JumpSuit]

So, some positive developments

1. I got the Data Core working with a SQLite database. The only thing I don't like is the latency - my 'Unit Tests' of my datacore tend to be working in the range of ~800ms - 1 second. I definitely need to tighten up performance of the backend.
2. I got my backend to be able to open Starmade, and issue a / command to it (specifically, /shutdown 30). I don't have to do the weird Unix 'Screen' trick, and/or read the server log file; I can just have my program scan the standard output. That simplifies things greatly.

All I have to do is start implementing ! commands for the mod, and testing them out by connecting to my own server. The backend isn't solved, yet, but it's looking pretty good so far. My Sunday progress report might be pretty positive.

With each post you post, I am just lossing faith that this server will even be a viable option, it saddens me how down-scaled this is and in turn the less shown issues with pve and pvp will begin to show, the smaller the ship as well as equipped weapons. If I were you, I'd do something similar to LvD.

 

[Matt_Bradock]

Higher max speeds make beam and guided-missiles the go-to weapons IMHO.

You obviously haven't tried to hit something small and fast-moving with guided missiles lately. Especially not with fast ones. They are simply unable to hit the target because their turn radius is too large and they can't track so efficiently any more. The missiles can't hit something even the size of an Isanth Zero at slow speed, has to come to full stop to actually get hit, otherwise you get about 1 missile hit out of 20 missiles launched.

 

[Asvarduil]

With each post you post, I am just lossing faith that this server will even be a viable option, it saddens me how down-scaled this is and in turn the less shown issues with pve and pvp will begin to show, the smaller the ship as well as equipped weapons. If I were you, I'd do something similar to LvD.

You're saddened it's coming together more quickly than I expected? :facepalm:

Friend, I think you're the embodiment of skepticism, cynicism, but probably not stoicism...

Edit: I'm leaving the failed facepalm emoji in there. It describes what I feel at the moment. Seriously, literally all of that is good news, I'll have the base systems of my mod in place more quickly, so I can open up a beta and give stuff a try - in what universe is that a sign of scaling down, and crappier?

Seriously. I'd love to know. Do tell.

 

[JumpSuit]

You're saddened it's coming together more quickly than I expected? :facepalm:

Friend, I think you're the embodiment of skepticism, cynicism, but probably not stoicism...

Edit: I'm leaving the failed facepalm emoji in there. It describes what I feel at the moment. Seriously, literally all of that is good news, I'll have the base systems of my mod in place more quickly, so I can open up a beta and give stuff a try - in what universe is that a sign of scaling down, and crappier?

Seriously. I'd love to know. Do tell.

You thought I was saddened by how 'fast' it is coming together than expected? Please, I am saddened as this server is not going to do well, just like your predecessor 'MiniMade'. The fact that you think I am the 'embodiment' of skepticism and cynicism is hilarious to say the least, as I can prob say for certain that this server is going to be a lot more unplayable than you let on mkay?
From where I see it, this server will have A LOT of humps and issues during Beta and release. I am not confident this will do well. I can tell you I have more experience in this game than you think i do if you think i am cynicism lol. I have seen the most populated of servers go down sadly. From the good servers to the unusual ones to the norm servers. Do not have high hopes this will succeed.

 

[DrTarDIS]

You thought I was saddened by how 'fast' it is coming together than expected? Please, I am saddened as this server is not going to do well, just like your predecessor 'MiniMade'. The fact that you think I am the 'embodiment' of skepticism and cynicism is hilarious to say the least, as I can prob say for certain that this server is going to be a lot more unplayable than you let on mkay?
From where I see it, this server will have A LOT of humps and issues during Beta and release. I am not confident this will do well. I can tell you I have more experience in this game than you think i do if you think i am cynicism lol. I have seen the most populated of servers go down sadly. From the good servers to the unusual ones to the norm servers. Do not have high hopes this will succeed.

jump, man, You're arguing with someone betting with their own wallet. They're not betting with your wallet. I Think you should try spending some words being helpful rather than petulant at their optimism.
[doublepost=1505940898,1505940411][/doublepost]

You obviously haven't tried to hit something small and fast-moving with guided missiles lately. Especially not with fast ones. They are simply unable to hit the target because their turn radius is too large and they can't track so efficiently any more. The missiles can't hit something even the size of an Isanth Zero at slow speed, has to come to full stop to actually get hit, otherwise you get about 1 missile hit out of 20 missiles launched.

I agree with you in certain ranges, disagree in others. That video is a good example of knife-fighting at less than 1km. at 8 and 15 km (I've seen both as "long range") things change a bit.
Even at a more sane long range...You do know that you can retain your lock for a couple seconds and "lead the target" with your missiles, right?

 

[JumpSuit]

jump, man, You're arguing with someone betting with their own wallet. They're not betting with your wallet. I Think you should try spending some words being helpful rather than petulant at their optimism.
[doublepost=1505940898,1505940411][/doublepost]
I agree with you in certain ranges, disagree in others. That video is a good example of knife-fighting at less than 1km. at 8 and 15 km (I've seen both as "long range") things change a bit.
Even at a more sane long range...You do know that you can retain your lock for a couple seconds and "lead the target" with your missiles, right?

Fine fine lol, all I can say is your burning your wallet (Asvarduil)

 

[Asvarduil]

Working backwards, and avoiding quotes

Asvarduil is burning his wallet. Yes. Of course, I've been an indie game developer for a while, I'm used to it.

[@JumpSuit] is arguing with someone betting his wallet. Well, I'm not sure 'arguing' is entirely the right term. I'm also not betting my wallet, chances are I won't make a cent off of this endeavor, but that's also not the point.

There are some legitimate concerns that I had to sift through their posts to recognize.

First - I think JumpSuit badly miscommunicated their point, which is that they don't see how a server that gets to Production could "succeed" in whatever terms JumpSuit means. To address the miscommunication, I say this: If you quote a post, typically that means your comment exists within the context of the quote. That's what confused the hell out of me - I read it, and the result evaluated to guacamole.

As to the concerns - 'success' is a good concern for them to have, because JumpSuit's 'MicroMade has succeeded!' might or might not be radically different than Asvarduil's 'MicroMade has succeeded!' I've already said I probably won't make a cent off of it, so you can count monetary reward right out.

Something that JumpSuit addressed in their concerns was the lifespan of the server. Since I'm not JumpSuit, I can only assume there's no inherent victory condition with how long a server stays online, but going offline counts as a 'failure'. I'm not sure I agree with that: the point of this mod/server, is as "fix fic" for things currently ailing StarMade (and, running off players.) Part of what I consider this server 'succeeding', is for Schine/schema to adopt provisions of this mod as the Vanilla game experience, and in so doing rendering this mod obsolete. If that happens, the mod has ultimately done its stated job.

This post could get long if I get into my goals, and honestly, I need to give them some thought. JumpSuit's concerns, while not well-worded, are that the server is pointless, and even if nothing stops it from getting into production, might not keep it there. That's a very loaded concern, because 'keeping a server alive' isn't simple - and why a n00b like me thinks they can do it, well, even I don't understand.

So, I'd like to issue an open question to everyone interested - what do you count as 'MicroMade has succeeded'?

Yes, I'm creating this mod and server, but this isn't any more "my" mod/server/game, than it is the community - the time I've spent writing games has reminded me multiple times that a game is incomplete by its very nature, that players are what make it truly complete. What's your definition of this mod/server succeeding?

 

[JumpSuit]

Working backwards, and avoiding quotes

Asvarduil is burning his wallet. Yes. Of course, I've been an indie game developer for a while, I'm used to it.

[@JumpSuit] is arguing with someone betting his wallet. Well, I'm not sure 'arguing' is entirely the right term. I'm also not betting my wallet, chances are I won't make a cent off of this endeavor, but that's also not the point.

There are some legitimate concerns that I had to sift through their posts to recognize.

First - I think JumpSuit badly miscommunicated their point, which is that they don't see how a server that gets to Production could "succeed" in whatever terms JumpSuit means. To address the miscommunication, I say this: If you quote a post, typically that means your comment exists within the context of the quote. That's what confused the hell out of me - I read it, and the result evaluated to guacamole.

As to the concerns - 'success' is a good concern for them to have, because JumpSuit's 'MicroMade has succeeded!' might or might not be radically different than Asvarduil's 'MicroMade has succeeded!' I've already said I probably won't make a cent off of it, so you can count monetary reward right out.

Something that JumpSuit addressed in their concerns was the lifespan of the server. Since I'm not JumpSuit, I can only assume there's no inherent victory condition with how long a server stays online, but going offline counts as a 'failure'. I'm not sure I agree with that: the point of this mod/server, is as "fix fic" for things currently ailing StarMade (and, running off players.) Part of what I consider this server 'succeeding', is for Schine/schema to adopt provisions of this mod as the Vanilla game experience, and in so doing rendering this mod obsolete. If that happens, the mod has ultimately done its stated job.

This post could get long if I get into my goals, and honestly, I need to give them some thought. JumpSuit's concerns, while not well-worded, are that the server is pointless, and even if nothing stops it from getting into production, might not keep it there. That's a very loaded concern, because 'keeping a server alive' isn't simple - and why a n00b like me thinks they can do it, well, even I don't understand.

So, I'd like to issue an open question to everyone interested - what do you count as 'MicroMade has succeeded'?

Yes, I'm creating this mod and server, but this isn't any more "my" mod/server/game, than it is the community - the time I've spent writing games has reminded me multiple times that a game is incomplete by its very nature, that players are what make it truly complete. What's your definition of this mod/server succeeding?

[JumpSuit Disagrees if he could use the rating in this thread]

 

[Tunk]

Meh dudes setting up a server on his own time and dime and shown a willingness to take input and feedback.

At this point it seems some folks are in this for arguments sake rather than anything useful

 

[Asvarduil]

Meh dudes setting up a server on his own time and dime and shown a willingness to take input and feedback.

At this point it seems some folks are in this for arguments sake rather than anything useful

What's more, dude disagrees with my position that the legitimate concern in his stuff is legitimate.

I'm thoroughly confused. I need Church to tell me what to think.

 

[JumpSuit]

What's more, dude disagrees with my position that the legitimate concern in his stuff is legitimate.

I'm thoroughly confused. I need Church to tell me what to think.

haha

 

[Tunk]

Anyways,
Personally I would recommend 30-40km sectors, 1/8th weapon range (equiv of 3.75-5km for cannons, 2.5 for beams, 8km for missiles, 24 for MB)
35-50 server speed (=105 to 150 with overdrive), reduces issues with ping/desync getting in the way of aiming/hitting.
You might need to up cannon speed as well, I use 25x server speed.
Reduce the max docking depth to 4 at most, this allows turrets on the base ship and being able to dock the ship.
Any more and you'll have folks stacking docked cores for mass power storage (eg 10 cores = 500k storage)

Depending on how dependent you want people to be on turrets up the accuracy range to ~80% of beam range.

Combo of large sectors and short weapons ranges also means you can detect threats early and decide, unlike vanilla starmade where a threat is on your bum before you detect it.

 

[Matt_Bradock]

So, I'd like to issue an open question to everyone interested - what do you count as 'MicroMade has succeeded'?

I would specify 3 simple conditions for that.
1. Server goes up
2. Server is stable and everything custom made works as intended
3. There is a decent sized (let's say 10+ players at peak time) playerbase on said server that actively plays on it for a prolonged time.

 

[JumpSuit]

Anyways,
Personally I would recommend 30-40km sectors, 1/8th weapon range (equiv of 3.75-5km for cannons, 2.5 for beams, 8km for missiles, 24 for MB)
35-50 server speed (=105 to 150 with overdrive), reduces issues with ping/desync getting in the way of aiming/hitting.
You might need to up cannon speed as well, I use 25x server speed.
Reduce the max docking depth to 4 at most, this allows turrets on the base ship and being able to dock the ship.
Any more and you'll have folks stacking docked cores for mass power storage (eg 10 cores = 500k storage)

Depending on how dependent you want people to be on turrets up the accuracy range to ~80% of beam range.

Combo of large sectors and short weapons ranges also means you can detect threats early and decide, unlike vanilla starmade where a threat is on your bum before you detect it.

30-40 km is to large for a server that is supposed to be 'micro'...

 

[Tunk]

Its also too small for ships travelling faster than a blue ass fly in a jar.
A major issue currently is cross sector combat, large sectors help alleviate that by reducing the number of cross sector encounters and allowing much longer between sector changes during dog fights and chases.

Otherwise we end up with folks crossing sectors getting out of sync, losing velocity, inflicting no damage, resetting cameras etc.

 

[Calhoun]

3. There is a decent sized (let's say 10+ players at peak time) playerbase on said server that actively plays on it for a prolonged time.

Unlikely honestly. The most popular servers at the moment are LvD, Freaks, and TSA although there's some whacky stuff happening there. All these servers are lucky to hit double digits most of the time.