Read by Council Hinder design theft

    Erth Paradine

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    I find it totally rational to not read 10 sites of discussion and expect OP to update his request if the discussion changed it.
    ...
    I don't feel anything has significantly changed from the original request JinM:
    • The DRM topic has been quite clearly refuted, and was never a specific topic broached in the OP.
    • This suggestion applies to how entities are handled in-game only. Not CC, nor other external environments.
    • Entity licensing has been broached and covered quite extensively in this thread, and that is something the OP never touched upon, nor IMHO is licensing distinctly relevant to the topic of whether or not players should have control over blueprinting permissions of their own spawned entities in-game. Honestly, licensing would be a complicated topic to address, and it really should be branched-off onto another thread: it is a very interesting idea, and it certainly deserves the attention and distinction of its own thread. Perhaps it'll branch-off once some of the ideas settle-out, and a good "OP" summary is plausible :)
    • The only obvious tweak that I feel could be applied to the OP, is the topic of templating: the OP originally says that templating should not be hindered. This thread's discussion has made it clear, that it would be prudent to at least limit the template "copy" function on protected entities, while still allowing for the template "paste" function.
    Honestly - I'm a bit uncomfortable changing the OP at this point anyways: there's an awful lot of "likes" and "agree" already applied to the original posting's language. On the other hand, if you could cite something specific that really should be changed, such as a typo, a needed clarification, or a grammatical change, and it's something specific to the topic of "...Add mechanic to prevent wholesale copying of entities, settable when spawning...", then perhaps the OP could be tweaked. As for adding major features/functions to the OP, such as licensing, that's really not appropriate IMHO.

    I also suggest you remember that any decision-makers would be evaluating the entire thread's contents before moving forward; we've all covered a number of concerns and topics, meaning that decision-makers would now need to expend less energy upon such topics themselves.

    ...
    If its server side its fine, but because the thing is too complicated and many side rules must be taken into account, I am totally against it. And OP did not state this in his starting post and until he does not learn to use the edit function I have a right of my opinion. Also I would still be against it, because the devs might implement it in a "not server side way" and that is risk I don't want to take.
    ...
    I think I see some of your confusion here. The OP never stated this would be applied anywhere but strictly in-game, and the OP never stated that any sort of setting would follow blueprints as they uploaded/downloaded from a server. In fact, the OP was abundatly clear that the setting would be applied at the time an entity is spawned in-game. Perhaps the terminology is confusing for you. From the OP:

    Add mechanic to prevent wholesale copying of entities, settable when spawning.
    • mechanic: game-engine enforced rule or function/feature
    • to prevent wholesale copying: a rule to enforce
    • entity: an in-game object, entities can be a ship, station, asteroid, planet plate, pilot, etc.
    • settable when spawning: this suggestion is self-limiting to objects a player can spawn, in this context that's ships and stations.
    As others have asked, a number of us are more than happy to discuss concerns, but you really do need to be clear at this point. If your concerns are with licensing, and its possible complexity, then that's perfectly fair to discuss....just remember that licensing and DRM was never a topic covered, nor intended to be covered, by the original request illustrated in the OP.
     
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    Lukwan

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    But seriously the Doctor nailed it:

    It's also important to remember that regardless of whether or not this suggestion is implemented, the choice to share (or not share) will always be made by the original designer.
    We should be concerned with what those original designers want because they are key to the whole issue. People want what they want and designers care about their creations regardless of what others want. I think we all want the game to encourage the spread of good design, but we do not agree about what qualifies as incentive for the creators of these BPs. I don't know of a single artist who would ever sell unsigned work if just anybody could take credit for it and make copies of it.
    [doublepost=1475367460,1475367087][/doublepost]
    Honestly - I'm a bit uncomfortable changing the OP at this point anyways: there's an awful lot of "likes" and "agree" already applied to the original posting's language.
    I cant agree on that one. If the conservation could never evolve from the original idea it would pretty pointless. I prefer to think of it as the natural progression of shared ideas. I have even seen the original poster adopt someones additional comment as better than their own (on a couple threads). Nothing wrong with that IMO.
     

    Erth Paradine

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    But seriously the Doctor nailed it:
    I cant agree on that one. If the conservation could never evolve from the original idea it would pretty pointless. I prefer to think of it as the natural progression of shared ideas. I have even seen the original poster adopt someones additional comment as better than their own (on a couple threads). Nothing wrong with that IMO.
    Alright, fair enough. Are you seeing a strong consensus on the additional ideas? Maybe I should at least give dibs to the licensing and DRM topics?

    Frankly - the OP presents a reasonably simple feature to implement. Licensing is, well...a really complicated animal from a coding perspective (hence my hesitation to integrate it).
     

    Lukwan

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    Licensing is, well...a really complicated animal from a coding perspective (hence my hesitation to integrate it).
    If that is the case then that is the best argument I have heard yet against the Licenced BP. This is where my ignorance is truly bliss. I just worry about making the concepts sound. I leave the thinky-pain to the Developers who are in good position to decide whether something is important enough to devote their time on.
     

    Erth Paradine

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    If that is the case then that is the best argument I have heard yet against the Licenced BP. This is where my ignorance is truly bliss. I just worry about making the concepts sound. I leave the thinky-pain to the Developers who are in good position to decide whether something is important enough to devote their time on.
    Oh, I think the licensing ideas are brilliant, but they're also a lot more complicated than a single true/false flag settable when an entity is spawned (and enforced at specific points in the game: shipyard design creation, and blueprint saving).

    I'm updating the OP with some info. Hopefully that helps.
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    Good lord, that's a lot of text... :eek: Ok. Here goes nothing...

    Man I really tried to explain it. And I am tired, maybe some other day I might be more comprehensible. ;)

    Ok again: 3 blueprint types, and you can't take designs off the server if configured right. Thats what you propose.

    And that is exactly what I fear would happen: A variable inside a blueprint, that actually prevents copying ingame. I tell you what will happen and what I fear: Too much people will use this option, some dude even will sell his blueprints. And no one will bother to even look again on CC because he must tediously search what blueprints don't have this flag so it is actually worth the time downloading the ship.
    CC will not be impacted and mostly server-side ship manufacturers will be issuing the limited blueprints of ships that aren't on CC anyway. You can't lose what you never had.

    Also this is not supporting my idea of having many ships for beginners that they just can spawn in. So a list of ships everyone can download and use for survival with a good description for what stage of gameplay they are usefull. Those lists and downloads would not happen anymore, because 40% would have the non copy flag.
    Not unless the designer specifically wanted that limitation; in which case, they would never post it in the first place. You can't lose what you never had.

    And what ships exactly do you have, that you in person don't want to share with others? Take a screenshot, show me please, and tell me: hey this one no one else EVER shall use for himself. Its MINE. Say it to me exactly like that, so I believe you that you don't want this exact creative work showing on the screenshot EVER used by others. Do it please. Because I don't think you can come up with an example thats worth implementing a DRM function.
    Troll.jpg lol. Dude, did you even visit the links on my sig? How insulting...:D

    Whats right and wrong inside a game is nothing you or me can objectively justify about. In a game the rules are the rules we as players are dictating. Even for creative content. There is no actual rule about how your content is objectively handled, there are only the rules you think are right, and the rules I think are right. And then there are the rules the government makes and don't apply to games, because you certainly would not go to court just because I copied your Starmadedesign.

    This is a common misconception: Rules for creative ownership in the real world are taken for granted in a discussion about implemting DRM functions for some ship designs in Starmade. You act like your opinion is based on rules and knowledge that actually don't apply to Starmade at all.
    You may be surprised to learn that, given that my designs vastly predate StarMade and are part of a project I've been working on for many years, I could in fact, take you to court. I also have the funds to make the experience very unpleasant for someone who is not properly equipped, legally. Then again, if I had intended to get rich off said project, none of you would have seen my builds in the first place and this conversation wouldn't be taking place.

    I understand that you don't want your ships copied if you are in a solo faction on a server. But...is this solo faction on a server worth the DRM?
    Within the context of this game, it matters to me. You don't need to understand why. ...just as you don't need more than a picture of my design unless I choose to give it to you.

    And are the guys copying your ships really impacting your game? I mean if they use your ship and you see them flying by, can't you be happy about constructed something so good, they don't use their own stuf?
    I've already answered that question. Your unwillingness to believe me doesn't make the response I previously gave you any less true.

    1. If the server you are on does not support the rp style and everyone actually copies your stuff you might be as well good to choose another server? I mean why rp on a server where everyone is a dick and the rp style does not save one man factions? Why can't you ask an admin to actually help and let the admin just handle this guys who obviously destroy the atmosphere for another player? Why play on a server where you are the most creative guy? Why play with people who are all not as good as you? 2. What is so special about any starmade build, that it needs to be DRM protected? Yes buidling in Starmade is complicated, but it is not DRM worthy. 3. If people really copying your stuff on a server like hell, you are really good to go on a server where such dicks don't impact your game this hard. And now think about it vice versa: I mean if you are on a server, there must be players you play with. And if you find to only play with people that use your stuff very often on a server I would be very surprised. Nono, the people you actually play with don't use your stuff. And then some distant guys that you don't even need to think about on the other edge of the map have the same ships as you have. I mean I can't imagine how those guys impact your game on that server. Its just that you don't like it, but it's not actually impacting the gameplay mechanic. 5. PVP: So you have small ships and are solo - If there happens a fight and someone uses your own ship against you, its really rare. And even then you could see this guy as an equal opponent. And if the guy is actually outnumbering you, then it does not matter if he does outnumber you with your own ship or any other doombrick. Having the most efficient ship in Starmade gives like 30% advantage, but outnumbered is outnumbered. Sorry but in a real war a sinlge 50% better equiped soldier can't take out 2 normal equiped soldiers in most of the cases neither. Ofcourse technology counts, but you can not engineer in Starmade up the point, that you can take on normal engineered ships in real high numbers (normal does not equal some beginner ships, ofc you can roflstomp those with some pro-knowledge).

    1) I would have never chosen a server like that in the first place. I am very selective with regard to what servers I play on. Furthermore, it is not the admin's job to make the other players accommodate my play style; hence why I am selective with regard to where I play.

    2-3) To understand the answer to these two questions, you need to have a creative mind. So now I have to ask; what have you created? What pride and joy do you keep locked away? If the answer is 'nothing', then you won't understand any answer I give you.

    4)??? 4? What the hell happened to number #4!? Damn it man, don't short change me like that!

    5) I'm sorry, what was that? Do you have any military background to back up those statements? Furthermore, do you have any design experience to back up those statements. Don't test me JinM; I have both.
     
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    My two cents. mostly agreeing with op but with some clarifications and adjustments.

    In the game currently there are 3 types of 'ship':
    1. Ship blueprint in catalog
    2. Ship blueprint in item form
    3. Ship entity
    Also note that the ships in CC are all of type 1

    proposed changes:
    • A ship entity can be set to be non-copyable when it is created/spawned, this will mean that the ship cannot be converted to a type 1 or 2, except by the person who spawned the ship initially, it also would prevent the use of the copy advanced biuld function by anyone exept the original owner
    • A type 2 ship can have a repair only flag set when it is created, that allows it to be used for repairs of type 3 ships but not for creating copys of type 1 or 3
    These changes are reasonably easy to implement (some additional meta tags), provide the basics of copy protection, while leaving CC untouched (no changes are made to type 1)
     

    Erth Paradine

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    My two cents. mostly agreeing with op but with some clarifications and adjustments.

    In the game currently there are 3 types of 'ship':
    1. Ship blueprint in catalog
    2. Ship blueprint in item form
    3. Ship entity
    This trips-up a lot of players: blueprints in item form are not really a blueprint. It's really nothing more than a basic metaitem which remains dependent upon the blueprint it was originally "purchased" from out of the catalog...change that catalog entry, or delete it, and relevant blueprints in your ship/station storage or personal inventory become unusable (fill and try to spawn, and they'll just dump everything in to space).

    On the other hand, designs (created with shipyards) stand alone, and are not dependent upon blueprint catalog entries.
     
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    This trips-up a lot of players: blueprints in item form are not really a blueprint. It's really nothing more than a basic metaitem which remains dependent upon the blueprint it was originally "purchased" from out of the catalog...change that catalog entry, or delete it, and relevant blueprints in your ship/station storage or personal inventory become unusable (fill and try to spawn, and they'll just dump everything in to space).

    On the other hand, designs (created with shipyards) stand alone, and are not dependent upon blueprint catalog entries.
    Ah, fair enough. The concept still stands, even if it may need some alteration to impliment
     

    Erth Paradine

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    Ah, fair enough. The concept still stands, even if it may need some alteration to impliment
    Yea, I think you're onto something here...

    I wonder if designs could be leveraged/sold, as something like a "repair permit", which would facilitate a shipyard to repair a specific relevant entity. Oh...now that could be nifty: sell a ship that includes a "repair permit"! It's something that could be lost, stolen, traded, etc...quite valuable to any player that has one of those specific ships...but can't be used to spawn new ones.

    One possible way of using it:
    • "repair permit" defaults to "disabled" and could only be activated by loading it into a shipyard prior to dissembling its linked protected ship. Using a shipyard to dissemble the ship then activates the permit: the design is now usable for creation of exactly one ship, design is then disabled again once the ship is assembled. Linking stuff together, and tracking design+ship would be tricky, but possible.
    Not sure how practical it is, but another way of approaching this, is for builders to "store" a design in the ship's core (or something else tethered to the ship, and not destructible until its core is destroyed) Then shipyards could leverage that data when rebuilding a ship...its original design essentially becomes a permeant part of the ship, with players able to apply it via shipyard anytime.
     
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    Dr. Whammy

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    That's basically a fleshed out variant of the "Licensed blueprint" option I mentioned earlier (repairs at shipyards but no copying). Are you sure you guys aren't over-complicating this?
     

    Erth Paradine

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    That's basically a fleshed out variant of the "Licensed blueprint" option I mentioned earlier (repairs at shipyards but no copying). Are you sure you guys aren't over-complicating this?
    I like your idea, and am playing with possible ways to see it applied in-game. A mental exercise, if you will.
     

    Calhoun

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    Repair Permit sounds like a better name for it. Personally I hope blueprints are removed in favour of shipyard designs, With your repair permits allowing... er, repair.
     

    Erth Paradine

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    Repair Permit sounds like a better name for it. Personally I hope blueprints are removed in favour of shipyard designs, With your repair permits allowing... er, repair.
    Yea, the idea behind using a "design" instead of a "blueprint" is remove that blueprint dependency (and its related quirks), and instead utilize existing game features to store a design onboard the ship. It seems to me, that something like that would be relatively painless to implement. It would certainly go a long ways towards addressing one prominent request I've seen in this thread: a way to repair ships using designs/blueprints, without handing-over a way to endlessly duplicate the ship as well.
     
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    I would really rather keep it simple (stupid). Three types of entity metadata/tags:
    • Basic entity---no protection, can be copied/saved/downloaded to local/etc.
    • Complete protection---Cannot be copied, repaired, (Perhaps disallow changes as well?), saved, anything.
    • For-sale protection (Better names welcoming. I don't like the sound of "licensed", it seems a bit formal and businesslike for a supposedly uncomplicated videogame)---Allows repairs, but not saving in any way. No shipyard designs, blueprinting, etc.
    *snip*
    Having the most efficient ship in Starmade gives like 30% advantage, but outnumbered is outnumbered. Sorry but in a real war a sinlge 50% better equiped soldier can't take out 2 normal equiped soldiers in most of the cases neither.
    *snip*
    What on earth. If you ask me, a single special forces soldier (From countries with good special forces programs, i.e. SAS, SEALs, Delta Force, Green Berets, Spetsnaz, etc.) with a knife is better equipped than 2 "normal" other soldiers.

    Also, an ME 262, its only advantage over P-51s, Spitfires, and similar Allied aircraft being jet power, could take out several enemies. Because it had a simple advantage---2 jet engines vs. prop power.

    And if there ever was a matchup between a U.S. Iowa-class and an entire squadron of WWI battleships, you know who would win. Say, 4 Queen Elizabeth-class fast battleships, against the very best of battleship technology. Also, three words: Radar fire control.

    And finally: One Russian, with a PPSH-41 SMG, could take out many Germans, who were usually armed only with bolt-action Kar98Ks. Seriously. It makes a difference.
     
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    Request:
    Add mechanic to prevent wholesale copying of entities, settable when spawning.

    Suggested Method:
    Add "AllowCopy" boolean flag to ship core (or ship entity), and perhaps also station entity. Entity flag can be set either by admin (anytime) or by player (only when spawning).
    if AllowCopy=false
    Deny saving blueprint.
    Deny shipyard "Create blueprint from design"
    Deny shipyard "Deconstruct to design"


    Complementary Ideas & Suggestions:
    • Blueprint licensing: a long-running discussion in this thread covers the topic of blueprint licensing. A concept largely intended to grant players more granular control over how their designs are used anywhere (e.g. not just on one server). Licensing could also be applied to in-game blueprint usage, providing various "tiers" of access to blueprints and additional possibilities for players to repair, trade, and distribute protected entities. The idea has a lot of merit, and could certainly add a lot to the game, but IMHO its also much more complicated to implement (and use). For that reason (licensing complexity) I will not be integrating the licensing topic into this OP, as I would like to see something basic (e.g. the "AllowCopy" flag) implemented sooner than later, and then later expanded upon with more granular licensing features. I will happily link to a relevant licensing thread once that emerges.
    # Why I am against the specific idea:
    "Core". There it is clearly written: You don't even know yourself if it would be the best way to implement the thing via a meta data in the core of via a server database variable for a spawned entitity. You, yourself, are not jet sure how to implement it. So if now the developers pick up the idea, they might implement it in a way it's not just a server-side thing but a block-persisent flag that automatically is in the blueprint and in the catalogue-file, and thus all of the sudden in the CC!

    Also I see that you actually want the licensing inside of catalogue files (not just server-side), but try to excuse your request with "its only a small thing not that big of a change because we only say it should be server side." But from what I read you want more steps into the licensing area. -" Why should I support this intention?

    So my first argument against it is still: It might not be implemented only server-side. Because you want to go further, the chances are high it won't stop server side or even be implemented from the start within the metadata of blocks. Thats a risk too high for me to support the idea.
    My second argument is: It is the first step in a wrong direction, and supports an intention (licensing) that just sounds good at first glance, but in reality takes away more than it gives. That are all my arguments, but the second one I explain now down below.


    # So...again: Why is licensing inside a game like Starmade bad, and in other places ok:

    1. Size of the intelectual work compared to size that actually matters to be protected in your real life:

    Starmade is first of all a game where you are supposed to play not more than 4 hours a day, 4 times a week. And even that is a very high number. So you accomplish some creative and intelectual content here. But what dimension does have this content? It is ofcourse a fine work.

    But how many hours have actual creative minds who get money for their stuff invested into their work? Exactly: There are laws out there to protect the intelectual property of work that took thousands of hours to accomplish. Not the maximum of 200 hours some nerd here in Starmade invested on some titan. Your ships are not that big of a deal. Yes they are amazing, and I like Dr. Whammys ships for sure, because I hounor the effort of all dedictated players. But I also like smaller ships because of the effort. It doesn't matter to me how special or beautiful a ship is when it comes to intelectual propperty.

    Because gaming should stay a place where you can do everything, because it only is a part of your life, and not the center of your income like intelectual content is for some creative works out there. If it is something you make money with, then you actually can take someone to court and win the case. But for Starmade ships this does not apply. Take me to court and tell them "Jin did not make money with my ships, and I did not make money with my ships, but now I want money from him for using the ships in some private (even playing on a server is nothing of real public interest but playing within a limited group of people, like attending a sport club) game sessions on a starmade server." If Starmade wanted ships and designs to be sold and all that stuff this licensing steps would make sense. But you would never take me to court for any ships you ever will make in Starmade, because even if you win the case you loose so much of your life time and get no money out of it. I think there is even this regulation in Germany, where when you take someone to court but it actually did not really impact anything else than your ego (except insulting and hurting someone ofcourse) if you win or loose the case, you have no right to let the looser pay the court-fees.

    But I certainly don't want that licensing and money direction, for this small part of my life. I want this gaming hobby to stay easy and not get more complicated and thus I don't support this intention. Because once we took enough steps into that direction some dude says "I own this catalogue item and you can only use it if you pay me."

    2. Supporting Creativity
    There is the argument, that people tell, that if catalogue items could be protected with a flag, more guys would upload to the CC and thus creative work would get a boost.

    First: Then some really proud guys upload a ship to the CC, but many other people will not even bother looking into the CC because they are to lazy to search if the not-copy flag is in the design or not. Just check the numbers on the downloads for big ships on the CC. Not that high. And they will be halfed when people know that the usage of many ships is even more limited. I mean 100 ship design have more than 500 downloads, but not more than 4000 downloads. And now half this numbers because you make sharing ships more complicated. But 100 ships. Comeon that might be seem like a high number, but it is not that big once you try to pick a certain ship size and a certain ships type.

    Secondly: If you implement regulations that govern the use of anything related to creative stuff, you have an impact to every creator out there, not just the ones who flag their stuff with licensing flags. Creators would not bother to download CC content because the design might be flagged. And then there are plenty of other examples I can come up with and I try to name a few now, were you limit creativity and working with creative content:

    - Limiting sharing lists of shipdesigns for all purposes like some download archive for beginners, or a catalogue of design that shall be used on a server.
    - Having to fear that, because you used some design for a hull that was also used by someone else, you get a huge slap, because the community became so sensitive about protecting each others creative stuff. Instead of inventing new stuff, suddenly the discussion would change to prevent being creative just to protect something thats in the end not that important compared to having fun being creative.
    - Downloading a ship, and then not being able to copy the ships interiour designs leads to just one thing: Not downloading the ship at all.
    - I upload a ship to CC, but because many guys flag their ships, there are not many people out there who download ships at all anymore.
    - Playing rp and buying a ship on a server with ingame currency and then seeing: Oh I can't use the bought ship in so many ways (here we go):
    a) I want to edit the bought ship - but the editted stuff on the ship I cannot save as well - hey its my stuff I added on this bought ship why can't I save the editted ship now as blueprint? b) I want to play the game like in real life, where I bought a car and then can modify it and resell it. Volkwagen would never sue me for tuning my Cabrio with some neat colors. But because I cannot save the blueprint I might have to fear that my own work just goes down the drain if there is a bug or server reset. Real-life creative work is not comparable to Starmade content in every way. c) The server stops existing and all the blueprints get deleted, and I want to play on another server with some ships I played with very long on my old server. But I can't anymore. The ships are gone forever if the server is gone. This does not help spreading creative work, it prevents creative work to go around the world.
    - I spawn a ship on a server, and then flag it with "not copy". Its my work but now I say "hey I don't play Starmade anymore", and I delete all communication ways and the owner of the server does not see me again and can't contact me. And then there is this fine work, no one ever can use it because I spawned the ship with the licensing-on flag.


    # TLDR;
    Why start with implementing game mechanics, that could take away so many possibilites if gone wrong or gone too far, and make everything more complex, for gaining so little creative security.

    Thanks for reading and paying attention. Still I am very happy that you are talking about it constructive and try to have a discussion about it. Ofcourse I can't respond line per line to Dr. Whammy and others, because its just a too complicated idea and I think rephrasing my arguments helped understanding each other more than going the line by line exchange in this one case. I ve read your answer and tried to involve responses to them in my text. But I can't respond to every detail. ^^
     
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    You need to stop. Just stop.

    I don't know why anything concerning the CC is now in the OP or wherever you found it, but that is a completely optional thing. Say that you support the in-game part but not the idea of out-of-game tracking of ownership and copying ability (Just like me: I want this kept in game, not let out into CC, where it would do no good anyway, since ships in CC are to be shared only. I think that the idea of licensing is to track the original maker of the ship, so somebody else can't just steal the BP and parade it around as his own. But I could be mistaken).

    So, instead of embarking on a lengthy, opinionated, and generally wrong rant against this stuff, list what you support. The reason we want this feature is not to restrict creativity (Even less restrict it through this hazy cause-and-??effect?? that you've described).

    Also, you will always be able to save your own ship! ALWAYS! The not-copy flag affects only other people.
    So, don't complain about that.

    And if you set it to don't copy, and then never play again, well, they weren't ever going to get to play with your toys anyway.

    And if you buy a ship and want to modify it, go ahead, just be aware that you might need to get the original owner's permission (I.E., visiting your base/wherever to reset the "don't copy" flag) to save it, just like you should.


    This will aid creativity, by putting more designs out there into the world, while making it harder to steal designs.



    All of this said, I believe that you have absolutely no point, because all your arguments are emotional, not logical.
     
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    All of this said, I believe that you have absolutely no point, because all your arguments are emotional, not logical.
    This is not true. I know how to argue and lined up my words and arguments in a logical order. If you see emotions in them, then show me in examples please. Cite my emotions. Give me a concrete example and I am pretty sure I can root it back to a very logical reason and not some emotional swing. =) But please do that in a personal message, because I think it will not help this topic.

    Also I made it clear, I mean I underlinded it, that I am against it because of the intention and the will to go further than just the server-side flag. And because there is a high chance its not just implemented server side! Did you understand this part? Because if you don't understand this one part of my argument we can't talk further about the matter. This one part needs your understatement, please: I don't believe you, that you only want a server-side setting, if there is a big talk about licensing and copying others peoples work. Even the OP said he wants some licensing stuff if it would not be so complicated for the devs to implement. ("For that reason (licensing complexity) I will not be integrating the licensing topic into this OP, as I would like to see something basic (e.g. the "AllowCopy" flag) implemented sooner than later, and then later expanded upon with more granular licensing features.")
     

    Spoolooni

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    • Legacy Citizen 2

    1. Size of the intellectual work compared to size that actually matters to be protected in your real life:

    Starmade is first of all a game where you are supposed to play not more than 4 hours a day, 4 times a week. And even that is a very high number. So you accomplish some creative and intellectual content here. But what dimension does have this content? It is of course a fine work.
    So you're against the idea of implementing blue print protection because you believe that the time someone spends on a Java platform renders their creative work illegitimate or incomparable to real life intellectual work because you perceive Starmade as nothing more than a video game? Are you aware that you can easily create a sculptural piece on Starmade before exporting it into other platforms for further rendering?

    But how many hours have actual creative minds who get money for their stuff invested into their work? Exactly: There are laws out there to protect the intellectual property of work that took thousands of hours to accomplish. Not the maximum of 200 hours some nerd here in Starmade invested on some titan. Your ships are not that big of a deal. Yes they are amazing, and I like Dr. Whammys ships for sure, because I honor the effort of all dedicated players. But I also like smaller ships because of the effort. It doesn't matter to me how special or beautiful a ship is when it comes to intellectual property.
    Your arguments are becoming more and more naive, ignorant and to a degree- simpleton in nature. How many hours have "actual" creative minds who get money for their stuff invested in their work? Exactly LESS than 2 hours in a lot of cases. I am a concept artist by heart and I have done line-art, sketches all in which are intellectual property between me and my contractor with price ranges of $25 to sometimes $500 or even more, and that's not a small portion of what veteran concept artists receive for the work they do for Triple A titles. In fact, most 3d modelers and creative "minds" of any production pipeline are expected to work within a limited time frame, sometimes a few days or even less than a few hours in order to get paid. They produce countless amounts of intellectual property that arguably aren't as hard to produce in Starmade when they work on a platform like Maya, Blender, Z-Brush, Photoshop CC and After effects.

    In fact, I could list the countless amounts of concept art that are considered intellectual property in which have no value in them either than to assist a friend towards releasing an independent studio title, does it legitimatize my architectural, vehicular or concept work that comes from me or that is labeled under a studio because I did not get paid for it nor spend "thousands of hours" on each line render?

    You make absolutely ZERO sense.

    Because gaming should stay a place where you can do everything, because it only is a part of your life, and not the center of your income like intellectual content is for some creative works out there.
    A video game isn't a place where you can do everything and arguably your statement opens a new can of worms. When you are on the internet, regardless of what you do and who you talk to- you're talking, engaging or interactively communicating to or with a PERSON behind that computer. Let alone the internet being a public sphere, albeit more lax than a University or a work environment, still does not immediately exclude or excuse you from taking part in various social contracts, the most simple one being respectful of others based on the rules and regulations of whatever community you participate in. In this case..... when you state "gaming should stay a place where you can do everything" and then start using legal issues to back your argument, you're raising a lot of concerns because "everything" means literally, "everything" if you include entrapment, doxxing and other forms of illegal notions.

    If it is something you make money with, then you actually can take someone to court and win the case. But for Starmade ships this does not apply. Take me to court and tell them "Jin did not make money with my ships, and I did not make money with my ships, but now I want money from him for using the ships in some private (even playing on a server is nothing of real public interest but playing within a limited group of people, like attending a sport club) game sessions on a Starmade server.
    I don't think the argument here is people trying to monetize their creations but if they are allowed to do so, they sure damn well can- even just by exporting into Blender and continue refining the details of their ship on a professional and non-gaming platform. Also here's yet again another one of your naive arguments. "If it's something you can make money with, then you actually can take someone to court and win the case." Well, I have some great news, you can actually take someone to court if you own any sort of intellectual property that have been infringed upon by others. I suppose you've never been to college, or never went to university and understood the complications of plagiarism hmm? I've seen people being expelled, suspended or even fined ( or imprisoned, it's a possibility ) for copying just ONE SENTENCE of a non profitable editorial, didactic journal, or research essay made by another professional. Those professionals did not make money from it because they're allowing people to read and absorb the knowledge they share.

    (Also, quoting in MLA format is not the same as "copying.")

    So the whole, "If they aren't making money, this means I can use it" is such a futile argument. Let alone, you can sue people for the most ridiculous things around the world to an extent companies can sue artists for selling fan-art of batman at comic con if they wanted to, all they have to do is employ some of their finest lawyers and it will run every convention store out of business even though they're barely making any money and often it's just enough to pay the rent for a stall at the event or pay off their plane ticket.

    "So why have many people not been sued?" I'd be glad to answer if you asked: "because not everyone's sue-happy."
     
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