Read by Council Hinder design theft

    Spoolooni

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    On the side note, I've heard a friend mention Interstellar Rift having some sort of blueprint protection, If this is true, we could certainly take some hints from them.

    Also, no Gandalf, as majestic as you look on that spectacular white horse. I will certainly not agree to that you're always right, that sets up a bad precedent.
     

    Erth Paradine

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    Did he just state that a change to CC, which he claims never to use, affects him? Without providing proof/a thought as to why?

    I'm so much done. How about we agree to disagree.
    And then agree that I am always right.
    All hail the madman!
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    Did he just state that a change to CC, which he claims never to use, affects him? Without providing proof/a thought as to why?

    I'm so much done. How about we agree to disagree.
    And then agree that I am always right.
    Then he 'threatens' me like he's going to jump through my computer screen... :D Hilarious isn't it?
     

    nightrune

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    Does the spawner attribute change on overheat? If not, why should AllowCopy?
    Yeah it likely doesn't change as well. I suppose its the age old at what point is it a different ship adage. I was thinking through what it would be like if you took it and rebuilt it.
     

    Calhoun

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    Yeah it likely doesn't change as well. I suppose its the age old at what point is it a different ship adage. I was thinking through what it would be like if you took it and rebuilt it.
    Interesting thought. I suppose you'd be able to capture said ship but not blueprint it. Not that it would really need blueprinting, you could examine the captured ship to steal some tech.

    On the other hand, an overheated ship takes fairly serious damage, Most of the systems would probably be destroyed. It might make for an interesting mechanic if the ship could be blueprinted after overheat. Thoughts Dr. Whammy, Madman198237, Erth Paradine ?
     
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    I mentioned that in a recent post, the idea that an overheated ship might be deserving of the loss of its protection. Because really, once you've overheated it, it's yours anyway.
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    Interesting thought. I suppose you'd be able to capture said ship but not blueprint it. Not that it would really need blueprinting, you could examine the captured ship to steal some tech.

    On the other hand, an overheated ship takes fairly serious damage, Most of the systems would probably be destroyed. It might make for an interesting mechanic if the ship could be blueprinted after overheat. Thoughts Dr. Whammy, Madman198237, Erth Paradine ?
    While this might be ok for smaller ships, I don't think it's a good idea for big ships and stations. After all, larger ships need to take substantially less damage to be considered 'destroyed'. You could take, for example, an Imperial Star Destroyer, and pelt it with cannon fire until it overheats. The ship would still look like an ISD. In most cases, you wouldn't even be able to tell that it was 'destroyed' just by looking at it.

    From a functional standpoint, overheating and capturing a ship is essentially the same as torching and stealing it. There should be no distinction between the two with regard to protection of the original design.

    You get the kill, the bragging rights and the resources, I don't think you need the artist's design as well; especially since we just had a discussion where most participants were in favor of requiring a spy to dissect the ship manually. The same rule should apply to capture in combat.
     

    TheGT

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    Erth Paradine

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    You get the kill, the bragging rights and the resources, I don't think you need the artist's design as well; especially since we just had a discussion where most participants were in favor of requiring a spy to dissect the ship manually. The same rule should apply to capture in combat.
    Yea, this is where I'm leaning with a response too. Comparison to an IRL capture would be similar...you'd have to tow the entity to a safe place, before getting the opportunity to reverse-engineer.

    Down with insta-copy!
    [doublepost=1475454634,1475454396][/doublepost]
    Yeah it likely doesn't change as well. I suppose its the age old at what point is it a different ship adage. I was thinking through what it would be like if you took it and rebuilt it.
    Yep, I tried to avoid that adage in the OP, as that really opens up a pandoras box: if the attribute were to reset at 50% entity change, does a player just need to glob a huge block of some cheap blocks, and they've suddenly reset the attribute? They don't get to reset the "spawner" attribute, so why allow a reset of AllowCopy?
     
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    Did he just state that a change to CC, which he claims never to use, affects him? Without providing proof/a thought as to why?

    I'm so much done. How about we agree to disagree.
    And then agree that I am always right.
    All hail the madman!
    Then he 'threatens' me like he's going to jump through my computer screen... :D Hilarious isn't it?
    Thats not cool anymore. Thats not how I want you guys to talk about me, and I have a big problem with this. You really want to make fun of me do you guys? I never understood people who take joy out of hurting others. But you don't care, because you are 5 big grown man who agree with each and apploud your behaviour and so you can bash me, because here is no one who disagrees with this and the forum seems to find it ok how you make fun of me.

    Even if you actually talked about the madman paradin and whammy, you really made this communication incredibly annoying at the end. And with this closing words you found for me as you saw that you have more guys in your back, I am over the edge now.

    I was ok with all of this as long as we talked in a good manner, but the emotions and the sticks you threw into this really piss me off.

    And do you know what you will do next? you will not say sorry. You will make up another reason why I spammed this thread and that some dude allready said stop it. Well I would not have written anything, if you would not have explicitly tried to talk with me. I even ignored some people because there were too much questions.
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    Yea, this is where I'm leaning with a response too. Comparison to an IRL capture would be similar...you'd have to tow the entity to a safe place, before getting the opportunity to reverse-engineer.

    Down with insta-copy!
    [doublepost=1475454634,1475454396][/doublepost]

    Yep, I tried to avoid that adage in the OP, as that really opens up a pandoras box: if the attribute were to reset at 50% entity change, does a player just need to glob a huge block of some cheap blocks, and they've suddenly reset the attribute? They don't get to reset the "spawner" attribute, so why allow a reset of AllowCopy?
    Agreed on both points.

    We need to circumvent the possibility of workaround/exploits. If you want another player's design, ask for it, buy it, reverse engineer it or go look on community content. With the exception of admins perfoming their server admin duties, there should be absolutely no form of insta-copy by non-admin players without consent from the original artist.
     
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    JinM, you really do need to take this a bit, well, lighter. I believe that Erth was just laughing at the "And agree that I'm always right", while Whammy does have a point about your pointless threat.
    EDIT: No pun intended. But I'm not gonna remove it :)


    -----Back on topic, I agree that ships should not lose protection when overheated, as the pointed-out mechanics make stealing the design far too easy.
     
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    Dr. Whammy

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    Thats not cool anymore. Thats not how I want you guys to talk about me, and I have a big problem with this. You really want to make fun of me do you guys? I never understood people who take joy out of hurting others. But you don't care, because you are 5 big grown man who agree with each and apploud your behaviour and so you can bash me, because here is no one who disagrees with this and the forum seems to find it ok how you make fun of me.

    Even if you actually talked about the madman paradin and whammy, you really made this communication incredibly annoying at the end. And with this closing words you found for me as you saw that you have more guys in your back, I am over the edge now.

    I was ok with all of this as long as we talked in a good manner, but the emotions and the sticks you threw into this really piss me off.

    And do you know what you will do next? you will not say sorry. You will make up another reason why I spammed this thread and that some dude allready said stop it. Well I would not have written anything, if you would not have explicitly tried to talk with me. I even ignored some people because there were too much questions.
    You challenged. I accepted. You threatened. I invalidated your threat. That's all; nothing more, nothing less.

    We're not here to pick on you, and I am sorry that you took it that way. You're being overly sensitive and irrational. Maybe this will be my last exchange with you; as you don't seem to handle debate or criticism well.
     

    Calhoun

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    Thats not cool anymore. Thats not how I want you guys to talk about me, and I have a big problem with this. You really want to make fun of me do you guys? I never understood people who take joy out of hurting others. But you don't care, because you are 5 big grown man who agree with each and apploud your behaviour and so you can bash me, because here is no one who disagrees with this and the forum seems to find it ok how you make fun of me.

    Even if you actually talked about the madman paradin and whammy, you really made this communication incredibly annoying at the end. And with this closing words you found for me as you saw that you have more guys in your back, I am over the edge now.

    I was ok with all of this as long as we talked in a good manner, but the emotions and the sticks you threw into this really piss me off.

    And do you know what you will do next? you will not say sorry. You will make up another reason why I spammed this thread and that some dude allready said stop it. Well I would not have written anything, if you would not have explicitly tried to talk with me. I even ignored some people because there were too much questions.
    No offence Jin, but pretty much everything you've just described there YOU have been doing throughout this thread. If you live in a glass house, don't throw stones.
     

    Lukwan

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    I hope devs give those picky "its all my own creation" guys not one inch ground.
    K, I was being polite up until now. As polite as I ever get anyway.

    A very productive discussion has been taking place in spite of intermittent waves of irrationality and argumentativeness. I'm going to lay this out for those of you who have time to compose a wall of text but not post a single thing on the dock.

    I care about about this because I am invested. Not invested in winning some juvenile debate, but invested in the things I create. I have 19 items on the dock and as of this date 607 downloads of my builds. I volunteered my time to make this stuff and got paid for just one of those builds (in worthless digeridolleridoos). One of my builds is a tutorial. Three of them are technology demonstrations. Five of them contain my greatest secrets to date. Am I holding back the development of this game too much for you?

    In my day we respected our elders or at least showed respect.
     
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    Ok, based on the responses, it seems Gandalf and Erth want result #1 (unprotected main ship with any protected docked part = protected until/unless part is undocked) of the 3 I inquired. This makes sense, as it would be the simplest and most bug-free way to protect entities. It may lead to annoyance in collaborative/faction builds involving multiple builders when one or more accidentally turned protection on for some random part(s), but that could be worked around. One such way could be that each builder saves their to-be-docked entities as faction-spawnable BPs and a single person spawns them, assembles the final result, and seals up the hull as needed before saving and sharing that BP. Since the copy-protection as suggested works on the spawned entity level, this method should work.

    With the clarification of this suggestion's relationships with rails and administration, I see no issue with the suggestion.
     

    Benevolent27

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    Oh my holy goodness so much text. I hate to add a bunch of more text here, but I think a lot of people are confusing the real-world with StarMade. For instance, licenses to copy ships in StarMade is NOT equal to a large corporation obtaining a copyright on a very basic and widely used mechanic and then suing a bunch of smaller companies for using said mechanic.


    Why protecting intellectual property enables the proliferation of creativity:
    The copyright system was originally created to help protect inventors so that they COULD share their designs, without being ripped off. The intent of this idea for StarMade is the same. It would not stifle creativity, it would allow it to flourish. In the real world, here are some examples of copyright allowing a product to be developed and then sold: the cotton gin, the telephone, the lightbulb, the computer processor. Without copyrights, inventors never would have been able to actually benefit from their design creations. Other companies would have immediately copied their design and sold it as their own. What incentive would inventors have had to create something if it made them homeless in the process while some other person got rich off their design? In fact, much of the success and technology we have today was 100% reliant on the copyright system. The inventors only created what they did because they knew they might be able to make a living from the results of their labor. Maybe even get rich from it.

    Why is a lack of intellectual property protection a problem in StarMade?
    In StarMade, people do not generally freely trade their designs or sell ships, because they know the person they sell to can easily just copy the design. Players cannot really sell their design, they are only selling the convenience of a filled blueprint and the parts it contains, so they cannot expect to get the true price value of their labor when selling their ships. Essentially, sellers are always forced to sell for less than they should have to, and there is always a race to the bottom. It is never in the seller's best interest to sell a design they worked hard on. The more thought and care they put into the design, the less of a return on their time they get.

    But in the real world, businesses do not copyright everything, do they?
    Businesses generally do not need to copyright every little part of a product they create, because part of how they succeed is by streamlining their design process, using quality materials, working with distributors to bring their prices down, ect. They also sell products that the consumer cannot make themselves. But in StarMade, any cannon computer is the same quality as another cannon computer. Anybody can create a cannon computer. There are no differences in how a ship is constructed. Also, price cannot be brought down by buying in bulk or what have you, a cannon computer always costs the same amount in resources to create. It should also be mentioned that in the real world, people cannot just instantly copy/paste a product, like their car and then sell a duplicate of it to someone else, assuming they have some scrap metal laying around. But in StarMade, you can. And therein lies the problem.

    So, is there actually a demand for a ship building/selling profession in StarMade?
    Yes! A lot of people WANT to share their designs and to sell their ships, but they simply cannot do so right now without having to sell their ships for much lower prices than is deserved. There are plenty of people who would enjoy amassing wealth on a server by creating new ships and selling them, creating repeat business, maintaining their business relationships, etc., rather than the hum-drum life of constant mining. But then there are other players who would love to be able to mine a lot and then buy a bunch of ships from ship sellers. Allowing viable trade options for ships in StarMade would benefit both of these players. That is the whole goal of an economy in a society, by allowing people to create how they would like and trade regularly with each other, it benefits everybody. However, right now, the player who might prefer to mine a lot can simply get one design and then make as many copies of the ship as they would like. There is no repeat business for that ship designer. Given that it takes so much work to create a new ship, it invalidates ship-building/selling as an in-game profession. It stifles creativity and gives no real opportunity to inventors and designers. So people generally just build ships for themselves OR for the community at large because that is what they enjoy. But this excludes all the players who would enjoy actually selling their designs for in-game currency.

    So, what other problems might exist for "licenses"?
    I think the biggest problem with this idea is that may not come across as realistic within the StarMade universe and so will detract from the immersion in the game. For example, we are moving from blueprints to shipyards to make things more realistic, right? How would a "license" that adds artificial barriers to copying a blueprint make things more immersive? Well, it wouldn't.

    How can we make this idea "realistic" within the StarMade universe to preserve immersion?
    First we need to look to the future about this, not the present. Blueprints are on their way out, I think, in favor of shipyard designs. I think blueprints will still exist in the listing, but the meta-item will be gone. Blueprints will instead be used to create a "shipyard design," which is then used in a shipyard.

    So let's think about how in the "reality" of StarMade shipyards actually work. How does the shipyard deconstruct a ship to repair it or create a design from it? I imagine it would interlink with the ship-core computer, which then does the actual inner probing to determine the blocks within the ship. So to implement a "license" type idea, the ship-core computer would only give specific access based on permissions. Right now, players can't just enter any ship, can they? They have to either have faction access, private access, or the ship is unfactioned so anybody can enter it. Blueprints are the same way, right? Permissions to repair or copy a design would merely be an extension of those types of permissions. So here is what I suggest.
    • Have every ship come with a shipyard design, built into the ship-core computer of the ship. This would allow "repairing" in a ship yard at any time. There would be no need to have a shipyard design to repair a ship. However, this functionality can only be implemented to a ship when it is either built (from a shipyard design or blueprint) OR when the build-in repair design is updated/written in a shipyard.
    • Add some permissions to the ship's "core" computer which would limit access to this schematic. These schematic permissions could ONLY be changed by the ship designer, and would offer three types of options. 1. Allow ship to be repaired. 2. Allow core-computer repair design to be updated in a shipyard. 3. Allow shipyard design to be created.

    So, here's how it might play out on the server:
    1. A ship seller named "Steve" is selling a warship, "Omega 50" to player "SirHugsAlot." Before selling it, he accesses the ship menu and enters the "Design Permissions" menu. He has a few checkboxes he can choose from. "Allow shipyard repairing," "Allow shipyard repair design to be updated," and "Allow shipyard access to design for copying." He selects "Allow shipyard repairs" and "Allow shipyard repair design to be updated," but de-selects "Allow shipyard access to design for copying." This inputs his name as the "Designer" into the ship-yard computer. In the future, only he or she will have access to change these settings or to remove the permissions entirely.

    2. He then sells the ship to SirHugsAlot for 5 million credits.

    3. SirHugsAlot suffers some damage later on while attacking some pirates. He takes the ship to his own shipyard, docks it, and presses the "Repair" button. The ship is repaired. No design needed.

    4. SirHugsAlot has an idea on how to make the weapons a little more powerful, so adds some cannons to the ship. He then clicks the "Update repair design" button in his shipyard. When he repairs in the future, it includes his modification when repairing the ship.

    5. SirHugsAlot decides he wants 5 more of the ships. So he clicks the "Deconstruct and Create Design" button on his shipyard, with the ship still docked. He receives an error, "Ship-core computer returned the following error: You do not have access to copy this design"

    6. SirHugsAlot sighs, but really wants more of these ships. So he goes back to Steve and says, "Hey, I want 5 more of the Omega 50 ship. I paid 5 million last time.. but since I'm buying in bulk, can I get a discount and buy 4 and get one free, so it would be 20 million credits?" Steve says "Nope, actually demand for that ship has gone up and I'll need to charge you more this time, so it will be 6 million per ship, 30 million credits total." SirHugsAlot says, "This ship has been awesome to use, so I will pay that. Thank you for creating such nice ships for me to use."

    Since it would be tied to each individual ship, the blueprint could be freely shared anywhere, online or otherwise. These permissions would only be added AFTER the ship is created. The system would also be pretty simple and easy to understand. It would allow ship builders and designers to feel free to sell their ships, and this could also make sense within the StarMade universe.

    Also, I think these permissions should be OPTIONAL. If a server admin changes a setting, "Use Design Permissions" to "false," then this section of a ship would simply not exist on that server. So for players that want to be ship-designers and sellers, they would prefer servers that have this setting on. For people who would prefer otherwise, they could start or play on servers where intellectual property rights are not recognized.
     
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    Erth Paradine

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    ...
    4. SirHugsAlot has an idea on how to make the weapons a little more powerful, so adds some cannons to the ship. He then clicks the "Update repair design" button in his shipyard. When he repairs in the future, it includes his modification when repairing the ship.
    ...
    Brilliant. So essentially an extension of an earlier idea to programmatically store the design somewhere within the ship: "update repair design" enables players to now deconstruct, and automatically save, an updated copy without releasing access of the protected to a non-spawning player. Support for this could be limited to shipyards - another way of encouraging shipyard usage.

    Only real hitch to this, would be when saving a ship that has unprotected turrets on it; I suppose its not really a big deal to now integrate those turrets into the repair design. You do still retain full control and access over your own turret design, the "update repair design" function simply makes it easy for you bundle everything into one easily-repaired, package.

    Agreed on the rest of what you said - very nicely illustrated.
    [doublepost=1475502369,1475501683][/doublepost]
    Ok, based on the responses, it seems Gandalf and Erth want result #1 (unprotected main ship with any protected docked part = protected until/unless part is undocked) of the 3 I inquired. This makes sense, as it would be the simplest and most bug-free way to protect entities. It may lead to annoyance in collaborative/faction builds involving multiple builders when one or more accidentally turned protection on for some random part(s), but that could be worked around. One such way could be that each builder saves their to-be-docked entities as faction-spawnable BPs and a single person spawns them, assembles the final result, and seals up the hull as needed before saving and sharing that BP. Since the copy-protection as suggested works on the spawned entity level, this method should work.

    With the clarification of this suggestion's relationships with rails and administration, I see no issue with the suggestion.
    Fair enough. In addition, if shipyards are required to activate the AllowCopy attribute, then smaller things such as turrets are less likely to be assigned the attribute, as players would probably just spawn those entities from a blueprint, sans-shipyard.