Read by Council Hinder design theft

[Ithirahad]

This sounds good. However, for something like this to be done, first ships need to carry a native design with them for shipyards to repair to. Otherwise people couldn't repair damaged ships they bought from other people.

 

[Erth Paradine]

Not sure what tothink about this. I understand the need for it tho;

But one thing. What if i modify slightly the ship. Then its my design, then i can save the blueprint. What if i have modified only say i added a wing bit here and there...

Nothing would prevent you from applying modifications, to essentially create a derivative work. Although that's the key part: just because someone opted to modify another's work, why should modifications automatically grant complete copy/duplication rights to the entire design? As for backing-up or otherwise saving specific additions/changes/modifications, couldn't templates be used for that? In fact, I imagine many derivative works could be bolted-on as separate ship entities, like turrets for instance.

This does bring up another interesting market option: modification specialists, painters, interior redesigners, etc.

 

[Lukwan]

Bringing together builders and combat-specialists is good thing. There are a number of debates between so-called builders and the faction-players who fight more (really, we all build and we all fight). It makes sense as each group is playing their preferred style and have different agendas but really we all want the same thing; to see SM improve and become a deeper and more engaging experience. Having an in-game economy that encourages interaction between different types of players would be great.

As for repairs... I think the builder should maintain a shipyard and be the primary repair-mechanic for the complex builds. This would give the designer feedback from the client about weak-spots and engineering gremlins and allow them to keep their 'trade secrets'. Also...more RP opportunities. Other mechanics could try to do the repairs but should be at a disadvantage.

 

[Furtive55]

I understand the want to protect a well thought out design. However, there are already a number of built in protections to prevent theft of the design. Permission levels prevent the internal threats/infiltrators and the protected station/faction protects from outsiders. This game is already too carebear for many peoples tastes with there being completely untouchable stations with no mechanisms to have a true warlike feel. Many people come across undocked ships/entities and blow up the faction block in an attempt to obtain the ship with the prize being the ship blocks and its design. What I think many people do not understand is that this is the type of game that is "easy come, easy go". If people really don't want anyone else to have access to their designs, they can go play a single player game or host their own server with no access to anyone else. Freelancers already have enough problems finding targets, sandbox games need more freedom, not less.

 

[Erth Paradine]

This sounds good. However, for something like this to be done, first ships need to carry a native design with them for shipyards to repair to. Otherwise people couldn't repair damaged ships they bought from other people.

You mean they couldn't repair the ship in a shipyard, unless they were working with the original designer's blueprint. Something they could go to the original designer to accomplish.

Even when outside the shipyard, nothing would prevent players from replacing lost/damaged blocks.
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I understand the want to protect a well thought out design. However, there are already a number of built in protections to prevent theft of the design. Permission levels prevent the internal threats/infiltrators and the protected station/faction protects from outsiders. This game is already too carebear for many peoples tastes with there being completely untouchable stations with no mechanisms to have a true warlike feel. Many people come across undocked ships/entities and blow up the faction block in an attempt to obtain the ship with the prize being the ship blocks and its design. What I think many people do not understand is that this is the type of game that is "easy come, easy go". If people really don't want anyone else to have access to their designs, they can go play a single player game or host their own server with no access to anyone else. Freelancers already have enough problems finding targets, sandbox games need more freedom, not less.

The point here, is to provide choices, with a lightweight mechanic that prevents what is currently easy copy/paste duplication. I don't see how permitting such ease of complete "physical" entity duplication has any real-world analogy, or any practical application towards supporting stronger player immersion, player-run markets, etc.

For instance, designers would be able to choose if they wanted their designs easily duplicated, and anyone having ownership of a ship built by that designer would be able to choose if they really wanted to "purchase" such a ship. Nobody's being forced one way or another: you don't have to own that ship, and the designer is not required to prevent copying.

As for pirates, they usually get well-beaten entities anyway, so I don't see a strong design theft motive there. Overall though, would just need to be more creative; stealing blueprints for example.

Further, nothing would prevent someone from copying a ship using templates, or even block-by-block. Designs would still be shared and distributed publicly, such as via The Dock; easy duplication, copying, modification, etc. The mechanic would only exist to discourage what is currently easy copy/paste duplication, if, and only if, the original builder wanted that outcome.

After-all, if you wanted to steal someone's unique work. Should it really be as easy as popping a faction block, and then running off with things? I'd say: make the thief actually work for it.

 

[KillaKrazy]

I understand the want to protect a well thought out design. However, there are already a number of built in protections to prevent theft of the design. Permission levels prevent the internal threats/infiltrators and the protected station/faction protects from outsiders. This game is already too carebear for many peoples tastes with there being completely untouchable stations with no mechanisms to have a true warlike feel. Many people come across undocked ships/entities and blow up the faction block in an attempt to obtain the ship with the prize being the ship blocks and its design. What I think many people do not understand is that this is the type of game that is "easy come, easy go". If people really don't want anyone else to have access to their designs, they can go play a single player game or host their own server with no access to anyone else. Freelancers already have enough problems finding targets, sandbox games need more freedom, not less.

I think you completely missed the point of this thread. The requested action it to make is so that if I sold you a ship you wouldn't be able to turn around and BP it to replicate endlessly. You would have to keep coming back to me to buy more of that specific ships or reverse engineer/rebuild the ship. This will open up many possibilities with having a true interactive economy and could also help with the issue that credits are utterly worthless.

 

[kikaha]

I think you completely missed the point of this thread. The requested action it to make is so that if I sold you a ship you wouldn't be able to turn around and BP it to replicate endlessly. You would have to keep coming back to me to buy more of that specific ships or reverse engineer/rebuild the ship. This will open up many possibilities with having a true interactive economy and could also help with the issue that credits are utterly worthless.

So maybe instead of having this kind of thing automatic for everyone, it could be a server specific option. I mean on some server you could keep the BP system as it is and on other you would have that non replicable BP thing (without the owner's consent).

 

[Erth Paradine]

So maybe instead of having this kind of thing automatic for everyone, it could be a server specific option. I mean on some server you could keep the BP system as it is and on other you would have that non replicable BP thing (without the owner's consent).

So, in other-words: an option to disable blueprint/design saving server-wide?

Or did you just mean a server.cfg option that enables/disables enforcement of an "AllowCopy" flag?

 

[Lecic]

This sounds good. However, for something like this to be done, first ships need to carry a native design with them for shipyards to repair to. Otherwise people couldn't repair damaged ships they bought from other people.

It's not necessarily a bad thing for people to not be able to repair ships on their own. How many people do you think would be able to maintain their computers or their car without an expert? There'd be nothing to stop you from repairing the ship the hard way, but if you wanted it done perfectly, you'd take it to the person who sold it to fix it up.

 

[Ithirahad]

It's not necessarily a bad thing for people to not be able to repair ships on their own. How many people do you think would be able to maintain their computers or their car without an expert? There'd be nothing to stop you from repairing the ship the hard way, but if you wanted it done perfectly, you'd take it to the person who sold it to fix it up.

That's silly, IMO. We don't have to drive back from Florida up to Pennsylvania at the dealership where we bought our car - or worse, the manufacturing plant in Detroit or Japan or wherever - to repair our car. We just have to go to the nearest mechanic, which in SM is the closest shipyard.

I mean, lorewise, some factions' and races' tech might be different enough that any old mechanic might not know how to work on all of it, but gamewise, everything's made of the same parts and works the same exact way, for all intents and purposes. Besides, it's a game...

 

[Erth Paradine]

That's silly, IMO. We don't have to drive back from Florida up to Pennsylvania at the dealership where we bought our car - or worse, the manufacturing plant in Detroit or Japan or wherever - to repair our car. We just have to go to the nearest mechanic, which in SM is the closest shipyard.

I mean, lorewise, some factions' and races' tech might be different enough that any old mechanic might not know how to work on all of it, but gamewise, everything's made of the same parts and works the same exact way, for all intents and purposes.

Correct, but smart automobile owners also don't go to the nearest mechanic for major repairs, overhauls, etc. Anyone can repair a few missing blocks, just like IRL more skilled mechanics would deal with brakes, tires, plugs, filters, etc. The specialists deal with complete overhauls, engine swapouts, etc.

I disagree that everything works the same way. Especially with more complicated ships integrating logic, and differing strategies for power generation, storage management, layered defenses, turret strategies, etc. Having ship-specific knowledge, or just better knowledge of even server-specific influences on a design. There's value to be passed along here...and some players just want to hunt and kill, while others would be more than happy running a manufacturing facility or repair depot.

sides, it's a game...

Agreed, but what does a player seek from it? An IRL escape? To roleplay? A creative outlet? A mechanism for PVP interaction? An exploration platform?

 

[Dr. Whammy]

Let's be realistic here.

All we really want is to keep lazy plagiarists from stealing our work and using it to make an in-game buck or using against us in combat. That's NOT an unreasonable thing to ask for.

For all you PVP addicts; If you want to PVP in a ship you didn't build yourself, you are more than welcome to go download one from community content. That's what it's there for. We (the build-oriented players) should not be forced to give you our designs simply because you are too lazy to build something cool looking yourself. To insist that we do so, shows that you do not have this game's best interest at heart and you are only in this for cheap thrills.

As for a server config; I don't thank that's the best approach. I think there should be an option on the blueprints menu. It should have the following options.
- Create "original blueprint" which allows full repair, copy, editing etc. Basically full ownership of the design.
- Create "blueprint copy"; used for spawning a single entity but does not allow copying or repair. You have to go to the manufacturer for service.
- Create "licensed blueprint" used for spawning a single entity and allowing other shipyards to repair it. Copying is not permitted.

Why so strict? Simple; this isn't like taking your car to a Pep Boys or the local mechanic for a tune up. You are flying a futuristic spacecraft, built by the equivalent of Boeing or Lockheed Martin. Do you really think the U.S. Air Force would send an F22 Raptor to some random aircraft repair shop to repair its targeting radar? ...or would they send it back to Lockheed Martin where it was built?

Before you answer, read the wiki article under operators and notice that no other countries operate the raptor.

 

[Madman198237]

Um, also, no random aircraft repair shop is going to have the skills, tools, and spare parts necessary to fix the advanced machinery in a modern military aircraft.

Enter Dr. Whammy, who I'm about to turn into an example, since he builds well and happens to have shown up in this thread.
Dr. Whammy builds decent military ships. He runs a faction that is basically a ship-building corporation. Dr. Whammy has to sell downgraded versions of his ships, because, inevitably, someone's going to steal the design, and he'd really rather not fight on an equal footing (After his enemies have used the blueprints they stole off the sold ship(s) to create a fleet based on his designs).

Instead, we would like to see this copyrighting function (Because that, in a nutshell, is what it is.) so that when Dr. Whammy sells his ships, and the raiders drop by (Probably to steal some more ships) with some cheap knockoffs of his impossible-to-copy design, he can kill them with his fleet.

 

[StarWars1981]

Alternatively, I, the talented, lazy, imagination-less jerk with a lot of time spends hours and hours reverse-engineering Dr. Whammy''s ship. I have now poured my time and resources into something that would've taken less time, probably, to do myself. There's no simple block for this, nor do we really need one.
I mean, cmon, the guys stealing ships don't WANT to waste that kind of time. They want easy crap now.
So I have brought up a potential counterargument just to refute it. There you go.
I like the idea. I would otherwise keep everything I brought onto the server under lock, key, and heavy turret.
Nobody gets into my storage room. Nobody.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

Alternatively, I, the talented, lazy, imagination-less jerk with a lot of time spends hours and hours reverse-engineering Dr. Whammy''s ship. I have now poured my time and resources into something that would've taken less time, probably, to do myself.

Like the Ex-Soviets and the Chinese; if you choose to spend that much of your own time and energy reverse engineering one of my designs, I won't be offended. I will applaud you for your tenacity and problem solving skills. After all, you deserve to have it. ...Just as you deserve to get a visit from my fleet of ships designed specifically to annihilate the now obsolete version of the ship you just stole... :p

I like the idea. I would otherwise keep everything I brought onto the server under lock, key, and heavy turret.
Nobody gets into my storage room. Nobody.

Hell... Yeah...

 

[Erth Paradine]

Alternatively, I, the talented, lazy, imagination-less jerk with a lot of time spends hours and hours reverse-engineering Dr. Whammy''s ship. I have now poured my time and resources into something that would've taken less time, probably, to do myself. There's no simple block for this, nor do we really need one.
I mean, cmon, the guys stealing ships don't WANT to waste that kind of time. They want easy crap now.
So I have brought up a potential counterargument just to refute it. There you go.
I like the idea. I would otherwise keep everything I brought onto the server under lock, key, and heavy turret.
Nobody gets into my storage room. Nobody.

While I'm unsure if it was intentional, you made a very strong case for my original proposal.

A player investing that much time into reverse-engineering someone's ship is going to undoubtedly walk away with significantly improved knowledge of game mechanics. Perhaps establishing a foundation that helps them build even better ships (or maybe just cheap knockoffs). Perhaps they'd be inspired to develop designs of their own, with influences from what the learned trying to copy other's work.

Where's the harm in that?

 

[kikaha]

Let's be realistic here.

All we really want is to keep lazy plagiarists from stealing our work and using it to make an in-game buck or using against us in combat. That's NOT an unreasonable thing to ask for.

For all you PVP addicts; If you want to PVP in a ship you didn't build yourself, you are more than welcome to go download one from community content. That's what it's there for. We (the build-oriented players) should not be forced to give you our designs simply because you are too lazy to build something cool looking yourself. To insist that we do so, shows that you do not have this game's best interest at heart and you are only in this for cheap thrills.

As for a server config; I don't thank that's the best approach. I think there should be an option on the blueprints menu. It should have the following options.
- Create "original blueprint" which allows full repair, copy, editing etc. Basically full ownership of the design.
- Create "blueprint copy"; used for spawning a single entity but does not allow copying or repair. You have to go to the manufacturer for service.
- Create "licensed blueprint" used for spawning a single entity and allowing other shipyards to repair it. Copying is not permitted.

Why so strict? Simple; this isn't like taking your car to a Pep Boys or the local mechanic for a tune up. You are flying a futuristic spacecraft, built by the equivalent of Boeing or Lockheed Martin. Do you really think the U.S. Air Force would send an F22 Raptor to some random aircraft repair shop to repair its targeting radar? ...or would they send it back to Lockheed Martin where it was built?

Before you answer, read the wiki article under operators and notice that no other countries operate the raptor.

Now that would be the best options in my opinion.

 

[StarWars1981]

While I'm unsure if it was intentional, you made a very strong case for my original proposal.

A player investing that much time into reverse-engineering someone's ship is going to undoubtedly walk away with significantly improved knowledge of game mechanics. Perhaps establishing a foundation that helps them build even better ships (or maybe just cheap knockoffs). Perhaps they'd be inspired to develop designs of their own, with influences from what the learned trying to copy other's work.

Where's the harm in that?

Yeah, I'm making the case for a locked-blueprint system.
And yeah, if you're WILLING to use that much time, you ALMOST deserve the ship. You're still a jerk who stole a ship, you just took the long way. If you DON'T just reassemble it to save it as your own, THEN you deserve the experience and parts.
I'm not saying it's bad, just that if used to copy ships, it's bad.
I fully appreciate people willing to go that far to learn how to build better ships. Kudos to them. They've earned the right to fly around in the biggest and baddest. But those who just copy are still lazy.

 

[Lukwan]

https://starmadedock.net/members/402829/

Bump

 

[Ithirahad]

That's not how you tag.

HolyCookie