Why exactly is power broken?

[Ghent96]

The current power meta after 2M e/s is extremely boring. Place down groups of 9890 aux, dock armor over them, have little to no consequences for the aux becoming damaged on its own, and laugh when they try to target your docking point, as destroying it will crash the server, nullifying the fight.

So, less players will build big boring ships if the soft-cap is lowered further. No need to overhaul power to make ships smaller.
Docked armor/crashes speak to the need for Schine to work on game optimization and bug fixes instead of power overhaul.
Aux problems verify the need for simply stat rebalancing with aux, not overhauling power.

People are making great arguments page 1 for the case against the power overhaul. excellent. The rest of this thread is going to be delicious.
[doublepost=1488428824,1488427953][/doublepost]

...tl;dr it needs to be fixed because its a fact that your computer is bad at reading "in game efficient" gigantic file structures regardless of their actual size...

Post was good, pardon me just quoting the TL;DR.
Yes - the game needs actual optimization more than it needs a power overhaul. I think everyone can agree on this, and this is part of the point of some of the backlash. Schine needs to devote more effort to fixes/optimizations than a power overhaul.
Yes - turret function and performance of docked entities in terms of server/lag has been absolutely horrid since the rails update. There needs to be actual code changes on how turrets and other docked entities are handled in the game, and a large variety of fixes could be possible:
- take power/shields out of turrets entirely and make them purely weapons that draw from the parent
- fix faction inheritance bugs on entities
- change / loosen collision detection and bounding boxes for docked entities (right now they generate a LOT of checks, and lag)
- applies to planets as well - plates cause collisions, and tons of lag. If Schine can't solve it, then this is a really good argument for the return to cookie planets.
- change the file structure of entities and how the game saves them. Other 3D file formats for example, handle separate meshes, turrets, bones, etc inside the same file rather than different folders/files like starmade currently does.

...but... again, we basically see Schine needs to focus on the game code and bug fixes rather than totally changing power. A power overhaul alone, at this point, would just be further breaking a core game that's already broken for other reasons.
[doublepost=1488429269][/doublepost]

Two things, the first one is mostly performances issues, to what we told me, wich is something someone heard from someone else that heard from... So with a bit of salt even if it makes sense. The fact that the current power system got a lot of calculation behind, you got power for each groups and then every groups got calculation together, there is 4 formula behind multiplied for each other ships, that isn't a light system. Well, could change formulas then, that's just my opinion....

Last sentence is most important here: it is all fixable with a mere rebalance, not an overhaul.

Also, if Schine would create a way to "weld" a ship by saving or shipyard, the constant calculations and changes/updates per individual block would be minimized, especially in combat at system blocks are being destroyed. This is not a new idea. Some of us have been asking Schine for +2 years for this.

With a rebalance, smaller ships perform better, and larger ships become functionally less useful, less common, and more purely aesthetic. All good stuff. Again, some of us have been asking Schine to up-balance small ships for years.

 

[Lecic]

So, less players will build big boring ships if the soft-cap is lowered further.

No, players will be slightly more annoyed while building a ship, and extreme meta ships will be comprised of even more entities than currently.

Docked armor/crashes speak to the need for Schine to work on game optimization and bug fixes instead of power overhaul.

No, docked armor and massed docked entity spam exist because of imbalances in the power system. An overhaul that removes the reason for this is necessary. I don't agree with Schine's proposal to do so, but we do need one. It will only get worse as the game grows.

 

[Az14el]

Give us more lee way to make lags and god damn it we will do it! as long as modular is just de best ever, thats pretty much a promise
not because i wanna break the game im trying to play, obviously, i just wanna shoot people to pieces as efficiently as i possibly can

change the file structure of entities and how the game saves them. Other 3D file formats for example, handle separate meshes, turrets, bones, etc inside the same file rather than different folders/files like starmade currently does.

If that were to become possible while not sacrificing starmades ability to simulate the entire structure i just spent so much time & intent building, i would jump camps immediately. No question, this would likely be the fix to my primary concern.

 

[kulbolen]

what would you know about shooting people AZ14ELLLLL

 

[Az14el]

what would you know about shooting people AZ14ELLLLL

pfft 1v1 me brobutgivemea1000to1headstartandadmingodmodepls

 

[Ghent96]

No, players will be slightly more annoyed while building a ship, and extreme meta ships will be comprised of even more entities than currently.

No, docked armor and massed docked entity spam exist because of imbalances in the power system. An overhaul that removes the reason for this is necessary. I don't agree with Schine's proposal to do so, but we do need one. It will only get worse as the game grows.

I can't disagree. I was annoyed at the least when Schine nerfed docked entities, because it removes a gameplay choice from players, but arguably they (docked entities) cannot be a main gameplay mechanic. They should be allowed for fun, for RP, for choice, for freedom, but... yes... they existed in the first place because we were all testing and poking for ways to exploit the system and get more power in smaller sizes, without brute forcing xyz reactors or line reactors on huge ships.

It would still all be solved by a rebalance of the current blocks, and by fixing exploits in the game code.

Docked entities should just contribute linearly to the parent. This eliminates any ability to subvert a soft-cap. This gives players the RP ability or design freedom to build modular, customizable ships they can just dock parts onto a main chassis, but removes exploits. Nothing is wrong with docked "ablative" armor. That should remain available to players as a design choice.

As for docked entities, most servers recognize the danger here, and ban ships with too many entities. Seems to work fine so far.

Someone is always going to build a titan. That's fine. Player freedom. The point is - that titan should be balanced with fighters, and not be the ultimate end-game server killer. They used to be, and kinda still are. They will continue to be with the proposed power overhaul by Schine. If we rebalance, instead, we can eliminate the functionality of a titan and make them purely about player choice, freedom, RP/aesthetics, and move the emphasis onto fighters, corvettes, frigates that are faster to build. When ships are faster to build, everyone is a lot less butt-hurt about actually getting into a fight, losing them, and charging back in again in another ship... you know, actually having fun flying

 

[Qweesdy]

Hi,

Someone is always going to build a titan. That's fine. Player freedom. The point is - that titan should be balanced with fighters, and not be the ultimate end-game server killer. They used to be, and kinda still are. They will continue to be with the proposed power overhaul by Schine. If we rebalance, instead, we can eliminate the functionality of a titan and make them purely about player choice, freedom, RP/aesthetics, and move the emphasis onto fighters, corvettes, frigates that are faster to build. When ships are faster to build, everyone is a lot less butt-hurt about actually getting into a fight, losing them, and charging back in again in another ship... you know, actually having fun flying

My fleet is a massive swarm of tiny drones. There's so many drones that I can't risk losing that fleet in a fight (the fleet cost far more than the largest titan ever built). It's not designed for PvP fighting, it's designed to kill the server whenever a PvP fight begins by causing a massive amount of load from AI, collision checking, weak projectiles, etc.

 

[Edymnion]

Nothing is wrong with docked "ablative" armor. That should remain available to players as a design choice.

Eh, docked armor PANELS on the OUTSIDE of the ship are fine and dandy.

People who dock the ENTIRE hull of the ship, however, are causing major problems. Destroying a ship with a full docked hull where the inside systems start having to glitch through the hull upon destruction/undocking creates problems that put the old docked reactors to shame.

Gets even worse when they start doing docked reactors (I don't care how someone wants to pretend it isn't, docking your turrets to an internal reactor is still a docked reactor) AND docked hulls. Then you end up with so many onion layers that their ships become immune to PvP simply because no one in their right mind would ever shoot at them for fear of crashing the server.

 

[Gasboy]

I am really starting to think that what I consider small ships for the community of this forum are microships, the "espaguetti" lines can be on every direction of 3 axis with that on mind you can do whatever you want.

Not sure what you're getting at here with your comments or the images.

 

[Edymnion]

I am really starting to think that what I consider small ships for the community of this forum are microships, the "espaguetti" lines can be on every direction of 3 axis with that on mind you can do whatever you want.

Small ships, micro ships, roughly the same thing. Usually 25-50 blocks long. Mass of a couple hundred.

Anything bigger than that and power just isn't an issue anymore unless you're using nukes.

 

[pietrko]

Power is broken for points exactly stated in Power Overhaul topic which currently locked.

Current power system your design choices in small ships, and allows for rather simple plain designs in big ships which are optimal at the same time.
Power generation is single most important submodule. How hard it is to build longest line possible?????

The great problem with systems that are too simplistic is the fact they usually have singular "best solution" and lack depth.
Building a big ship should be a challenge a great optimization problem, not something you can approach to with the same straightforward pattern (and create next great PVP ship, which only differs from other PVP ship by look and scale).

Current Power generation which lacks depth allows for building strategy "da bigger da better" to win 99.99% of times,.

I totally agree with Devs.

I want power system that provides more challenge and complexity for bigger projects not only placing yet another shitload of blocks
I want for my ingenuity to be challenged.

 

[Batavium]

Current Power generation which lacks depth allows for building strategy "da bigger da better" to win 99.99% of times,.

I totally agree with Devs.

Bigger does not always win. Players that are good at small often do not share their creations or insights. Maybe Veilith needs to place some of his older Reduction Units on the docks. Though his player name does not even exist on the dock "alt". Take it from me the guy is really good at reducing any ship of any size to space dust.

I also totally disagree with the devs.

Because the proposal is like power 4.0

We already had a major power overhaul 2.0.

It was "masked" as a weapons nerf. But it was just a power overhaul. It pretty much made any Blueprint until then unable to function. The biggest impact was on small stuff. It could no longer generate the power needed to operate.

Amazing stuff like this:

Orbitalcannon Uriel

Or basically any build in the Community Content from page 171 "currently" and down.

When they did this everybody stopped playing StarMade. All my friends said good luck with that. None have returned to StarMade.

Overall Player counts. That is people i see online playing StarMade have never recovered.



Then there was the cargo update power 3.0.

Now your Mass effected your ships energy consumption. Even the crap you had on you as an Astronaut effected the energy consumption of the ship. This led to the docked generator craze just to get ships able to move again.


At one time i made a suggestion to just forget about power lines or shapes and just have it act like loose sand. You just need an X amount of power blocks to generate power. How you place them should not matter a bit like shields. This would give people the freedom to build ships in any shape. It would also be easy for new players to pick up this system. Because power is such a basic need. Nothing works without it. It should be brain death simple. Look at other parts of construction for "depth" Logic is prime candidate here as it is an optional system.

I do not mind if a Reactor is added to StarMade. But the current system should work along side it. So people can than choose what powers there ships. It will also allow the Blueprints to remain functional without yet another refit.

Basically give it a rest already. This has been done over and over.

Focus on server stability, easy new player adoption of the game and game content that actually works.

And when something causes trouble. Like the segmented Planets. That flat out destroy server play whenever a core gets stuck. Just take it out again on the next version. That does not mean it failed! It just means StarMade is not ready for it now! You can always add it back in later. When maybe it will not cause these issues.

 

[Ithirahad]

Then there was the cargo update power 3.0.

Now your Mass effected your ships energy consumption. Even the crap you had on you as an Astronaut effected the energy consumption of the ship. This led to the docked generator craze just to get ships able to move again.

What the hell... That is not how that works at all. Unless this was a super old thing that got patched out before I joined the game ages ago (before we even had a StarMade Dock)

 

[Criss]

There is a lot of stuff here that I haven't read. Six pages. But I will give my opinion on why power needs to be redone in response to the Op.

A lot of the arguments come down to the PvP side of things. Our top-tier players argue that the current system is fine, and all we (schine) need to do is tweak a few things to get a system that works well. These players claim that by using various building strategies, (armor layering, system layering, block placement, etc) that a player can learn how to make the most of the systems on a ship and maximize efficiency, effectiveness, and all the while ensure the ship is aesthetically pleasing.

So let's take away PvP. You have no intention of fighting, but you do want to mine for a faction. Place your power, place your salvagers. Maybe tweak their values, or connect a secondary system. Build it bigger if you want to mine more. Place thrusters down to move. You now have a large mining vessel. You might be defenseless, but it did not take much thought to get to where you are. You're mining ship can eat asteroids in seconds or less!

And there is not a thing there that penalizes you in how you build. Power efficiency is lacking, but the ship doesn't explode if you place a big cube of power somewhere, so why would the player take notice of those particular building rules? New players, without being told, will likely not realize this for a long time. You know what that means? They aren't learning how to play, because it's as simple as placings things down and winning. At least outside of PvP, that is what is happening.

And I think that's the problem. No engineering. No consequences for building haphazardly. Outside of PvP you can build the biggest best most effective ship by spamming blocks. That's why we would like to try a new system. One where placement and design of you reactors and other systems means something.

 

[kulbolen]

while i get what you were going for there and that was just an example... you could solve new player mining rig yawnsies by just increasing the power salvagers take to fire... they draw so little you can be woefully inefficient and still fire a salvage array large enough to crash a server. you dont need to change the entire energy mechanic to force people to learn said mechanic, just make it more apparent in early game necessity.

anyway idc if theres a power change i just want it to not be a sucky one.
[doublepost=1489807409,1489807235][/doublepost]concatinate i hope. but also,

They aren't learning how to play, because it's as simple as placings things down and winning

this is gonna happen regardless because outside pvp the default game is completely devoid of any challenge anyway. all default npcs from pirates to traders are absolute garbage and anyone can crush them all 2 hours into a fresh server without learning any kinda advanced anything.

im hoping theres more to your school of thoguht that you arent sharing; coding issues, game performance issues, ai futureproofing...

 

[Spartan4845]

There is a lot of stuff here that I haven't read. Six pages. But I will give my opinion on why power needs to be redone in response to the Op.

A lot of the arguments come down to the PvP side of things. Our top-tier players argue that the current system is fine, and all we (schine) need to do is tweak a few things to get a system that works well. These players claim that by using various building strategies, (armor layering, system layering, block placement, etc) that a player can learn how to make the most of the systems on a ship and maximize efficiency, effectiveness, and all the while ensure the ship is aesthetically pleasing.

So let's take away PvP. You have no intention of fighting, but you do want to mine for a faction. Place your power, place your salvagers. Maybe tweak their values, or connect a secondary system. Build it bigger if you want to mine more. Place thrusters down to move. You now have a large mining vessel. You might be defenseless, but it did not take much thought to get to where you are. You're mining ship can eat asteroids in seconds or less!

And there is not a thing there that penalizes you in how you build. Power efficiency is lacking, but the ship doesn't explode if you place a big cube of power somewhere, so why would the player take notice of those particular building rules? New players, without being told, will likely not realize this for a long time. You know what that means? They aren't learning how to play, because it's as simple as placings things down and winning. At least outside of PvP, that is what is happening.

And I think that's the problem. No engineering. No consequences for building haphazardly. Outside of PvP you can build the biggest best most effective ship by spamming blocks. That's why we would like to try a new system. One where placement and design of you reactors and other systems means something.

I know some people are going to hate this, I know I'll get flamed or yelled at, but I have to admit that I like this. I like this even knowing that it might destroy my ships I've designed, or destroy my ability to build my style. Because lets be honest, if Starmade is going to grow and standout in what is becoming a crowded market it's going to have to take risks.

Edit: Also I know plenty of people hate the idea of a new power system, but people always hate change.

 

[Lecic]

There is a lot of stuff here that I haven't read. Six pages. But I will give my opinion on why power needs to be redone in response to the Op.

A lot of the arguments come down to the PvP side of things. Our top-tier players argue that the current system is fine, and all we (schine) need to do is tweak a few things to get a system that works well. These players claim that by using various building strategies, (armor layering, system layering, block placement, etc) that a player can learn how to make the most of the systems on a ship and maximize efficiency, effectiveness, and all the while ensure the ship is aesthetically pleasing.

So let's take away PvP. You have no intention of fighting, but you do want to mine for a faction. Place your power, place your salvagers. Maybe tweak their values, or connect a secondary system. Build it bigger if you want to mine more. Place thrusters down to move. You now have a large mining vessel. You might be defenseless, but it did not take much thought to get to where you are. You're mining ship can eat asteroids in seconds or less!

And there is not a thing there that penalizes you in how you build. Power efficiency is lacking, but the ship doesn't explode if you place a big cube of power somewhere, so why would the player take notice of those particular building rules? New players, without being told, will likely not realize this for a long time. You know what that means? They aren't learning how to play, because it's as simple as placings things down and winning. At least outside of PvP, that is what is happening.

And I think that's the problem. No engineering. No consequences for building haphazardly. Outside of PvP you can build the biggest best most effective ship by spamming blocks. That's why we would like to try a new system. One where placement and design of you reactors and other systems means something.

So your reasoning for wanting to change power is... brand new players build miners with subpar efficiency, and aren't penalized as bad for it?

 

[Criss]

completely devoid of any challenge anyway.

And what makes you think that can't change? Schine already has ways to influence that. They are not in yet because the full range of content isn't there. We can't balance the progression when we hardly have factions in.

2 hours into a fresh server

I'd like to see a new player kill one each of all the ships we have in the game two hours in, let alone acquire the resources needed to achieve that. And it's not like the default assets are powerful in any way. It's that the player is dumped in the middle of space with no direction whatsoever. Everything we do has to accommodate new and old players alike.

So your reasoning for wanting to change power is... brand new players build miners with subpar efficiency, and aren't penalized as bad for it?

It was an example. When the player doesn't exactly realize they are doing something inefficiently, how and when will they learn to improve? There is no feedback. New players don't inherently know they are wasting time with an inefficient system. They are free to explore other variations and systems, but nothing is forcing them to.

I used mining as an example because it's similar to weapon systems, and what we proposed in that thread. They are systems you need to use, and by building them without thought, you may adversely effect your ship's performance. The proposal attempts to tie all systems into those overheat mechanics, not just weapons.

 

[Lecic]

It was an example. When the player doesn't exactly realize they are doing something inefficiently, how and when will they learn to improve? There is no feedback. New players don't inherently know they are wasting time with an inefficient system. They are free to explore other variations and systems, but nothing is forcing them to.

And how are players supposed to know they are building an inefficient power system in the proposed one? A poorly designed power system exploding in the face of a newbie builder, which more than likely just results in said newbie storming to the forums to ask why the hell his reactor just went hiroshima?

 

[Criss]

And how are players supposed to know they are building an inefficient power system in the proposed one? A poorly designed power system exploding in the face of a newbie builder, which more than likely just results in said newbie storming to the forums to ask why the hell his reactor just went hiroshima?

Well to start, they shouldn't be worrying about that until they've gotten onto some larger builds. I'm not sure ships will explode, but they certainly won't function well. We can introduce warnings. Also mentioned in the proposal was new build tools, ones that could help visualize how heat may influence your design. I can't speak for new players myself, because it has been a long time since I was new. In my experience, I wasn't building anything over 200 meters for a few weeks. If a player wants to rush into large builds out of the gate, then maybe there should be a bit of restraint letting them know that there is some progression to the game.

Right now a new player could spend time, or use creative mode to design a massive vessel and sweep the galaxy of anything in their way. Game over. You won. Not that exciting.