Why exactly is power broken?

    Lecic

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    I'm not sure ships will explode, but they certainly won't function well.
    So, how exactly is that different from now? Putting the possibility of having visible outlines for the atrocious heatboxes.

    Right now a new player could spend time, or use creative mode to design a massive vessel and sweep the galaxy of anything in their way. Game over. You won. Not that exciting.
    Yes, a new player could build a gigantic but crappy vessel and dominate the small and poorly equipped AI factions with a giant ship they built in creative mode. However, this is not a problem with the power system, and the proposed one certainly doesn't fix it either. This is a problem with the relatively easy to push over nature of the AI factions in the first place, and the fact that even a completely terrible design can triumph against said push over nature when given the power of INFINITE BLOCKS.
     
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    I'd like to see a new player kill one each of all the ships we have in the game two hours in,
    easily done by someone who pays attention and learns quick, or joins an mp server and gets advice. i realize it may not be the norm, but its certainly not impossible.

    And what makes you think that can't change? Schine already has ways to influence that. They are not in yet because the full range of content isn't there. We can't balance the progression when we hardly have factions in.
    but your entire mining scenario is progression also. build bigger miner get more resources easier... only its too easy...hmm.

    Outside of PvP you can build the biggest best most effective ship by spamming blocks
    this bit confused me. youre saying that you can make more challenging npc content, just havent gotten to it yet... if this is the case, wouldnt the more challenging content require players to learn the systems instead of just spamming blocks, like you want? hell if the ai gets a solid update, you could make npcs pretty challenging. provided they dont...

    spit their turrets everywhere, laugh in your face, and crash your game then corrupt your database.

    in fact with completely default settings, the game completely stumbles all over itself if you actually begin to interact with said npcs, for a stable game its better to just disable all that stuff. (which new people probably dont know how to do? idk...)

    id be super ok with "a power overhaul will help us set up a path to better performance in the future" explanation, because thats by far the most problematic thing for people who actually play the game instead of staring at ship hulls or developing features. yes, im aware everyone says that about every alpha game, but its an overwhelming problem with this game in particular, years after its release. it looms over the heads of every single player and every single admin, and singlehandedly drives players away from the game faster than they discover it. i dont see any hotfixes and performance updates fixing the underlying issues here, and if the power overhaul isnt partly to address this, then stop wasting everyones time.
     

    Criss

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    i realize it may not be the norm
    Well the goal is to address the issue with the norm. We can't ignore it because there are exceptions. It may be possible for players to exceed, and it's also possible players will be even more stuck than others. I'm sorry to say I doubt your claims. Two hours into my first time experience I would not be taking on the NPC ships we have now, and this was after I watched plenty of gameplay.

    challenging content require players to learn the systems instead of just spamming blocks
    Well take my example again. Mining. The goal is to build a mining ship that get's you blocks.

    Now you could make it efficient, sure. But the penalty of not making your ship properly, well right now there isn't one. Your ship still functions. You might be getting less blocks. That isn't enough of a detriment in my opinion. If you went full steam ahead and built a large mining ship without bothering to put thought into design, then there should be a consequence for that. It's a building game. I legitimately do not see any major downsides to building whichever way you want when you avoid conflict.

    I think players aren't seeing the non PvP side of things because there is so little of that to begin with. If we introduced non pvp missions right now, you'd have no trouble making a ship that could finish all of them. Be it scanning things down, transporting things, mining, racing, etc, a single ship could be built to accommodate a lot of those needs. And if it can't, how hard is it to copy the design and swap systems?

    On a more personal note, I just finished a ship. 180+ meters I believe. Extensive interior. The rest of that space is naturally filled wall to wall with systems. There is no power core, because power lines run in many directions. I have physical engines on my ship, but due to the shape, it's likely more of my engine power isn't housed in that physical detail. I don't have concentrations of shield systems, it's just a wall of shield modules running along underneath the hull. My scanners fall into the same boat. They aren't concentrated. You could hit a few different spots on my ship and manage to damage the same system each time.

    That's not fun for me, and I feel like a fairly average player when it comes to building. I'm not a newb, and I'm not an expert. And nothing about the current system makes me want to be an expert. I don't feel like I can design a power core in anything but an aesthetic way. Same goes for other systems.

    I'm not 100% sure what the proposal can do for the game, but I feel like it is a step in the right direction. That's why I'm willing to try it.
     
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    Two hours into my first time experience I would not be taking on the NPC ships we have now, and this was after I watched plenty of gameplay.
    if it helps make my position about npcs being garbage more clear, we can always change 2 hoursup to "a day or 2," but that still highlights the fact that after the very beginning, theres no challenge at all from pve. scaling them up wont help either, because by the time a player gets good enough to combat npcs, theyve probably identified the limited ai behavior anyway. your own talking points highlight that current pve has no challenge; what are you trying to say here?

    I think players aren't seeing the non PvP side of things because there is so little of that to begin with. If we introduced non pvp missions right now, you'd have no trouble making a ship that could finish all of them. Be it scanning things down, transporting things, mining, racing, etc, a single ship could be built to accommodate a lot of those needs. And if it can't, how hard is it to copy the design and swap systems?
    are you trying to say the power overhaul will make it difficult for me to make a ship that can complete future pve content? unless youre destroying the engineering ceiling with this update, my level of experience will probably prevent content from being difficult unless i throttle my play to allow it to be.

    It's a building game. I legitimately do not see any major downsides to building whichever way you want when you avoid conflict.
    should there be downsides to building how you want? if youre not combat oriented, i already dont see a current downside. you can make an empty ship, a full ship, an efficient ship, an inefficient one. it makes no difference if youre not using your ship for anything, and i doubt a power overhaul will change this. a purposeless ship can still be designed without effectiveness or efficiency in mind.

    anyway none of this scratches the surface of fixing the games massive stability issues. if it doesnt help accomplish that, its still a waste of time.
     

    Criss

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    it makes no difference if youre not using your ship for anything
    This right here is my point. You fail to see how anything outside of combat could have a purpose. Or that designing a ship haphazardly for anything other than combat is good gameplay. There may not be non combat oriented gameplay now, but we would like there to be. And when that happens, we don't want players essentially "beating" the game because there are no major restrictions for non combat gameplay.
     
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    What the hell... That is not how that works at all. Unless this was a super old thing that got patched out before I joined the game ages ago (before we even had a StarMade Dock)
    It does work like that. Load up a big ship in StarMade before the cargo update. Then the same ship after the update and look at power used by just having it undocked and doing nothing. You may need a ship that has not been modified to work after the cargo update. I am not at my StarMade pc so i can not upload a Blueprint to show this right now.

    But an example on the dock is this one:

    Enhanced Stockholm

    Before the cargo update the ship was completely made from Advanced Armor. After the cargo update. I first added eight docked reactors to compensate for the weight power drain. When docked reactors were removed. I swaped all regular Advanced Armor for Hull to get the weight/mass of the ship down. You can still see the Advanced Armor in all the corners. I did not bother removing that as it does not maintain shape in the advanced build mode replace option.


    That's not fun for me, and I feel like a fairly average player when it comes to building. I'm not a newb, and I'm not an expert. And nothing about the current system makes me want to be an expert. I don't feel like I can design a power core in anything but an aesthetic way. Same goes for other systems.

    I think Schine is out of touch with the player base. People build amazing looking stuff. There is plenty of examples of that on the docks. But even more so on the multi player servers. You keep focusing on form. We do not like you to play like that. Or we do not like you to build like that. Players are being punished for trying to build the most effective system because it is not supposedly artistically pleasing. It is just adding extra layers to do the same thing in a different more complex way.

    My miners are just a big block of salvage beams. It works great. It does what it needs to do Mine!

    You clearly need to play on a Build server. Where looks are more and better appreciated.

    Schine currently hosts five servers. They are almost always empty. When i tried to play the test server. I shared some insight into cloaked ships and cloak war fare. I was immediately told. We do not like that. We do not want you to play like that. We are going to FIX that. So i never played the test server again.

    Five servers is not cheap. Why not try and host a Free for All do as you please StarMade server? I think you be amazed at the things people can do with this game. And you get to try to keep the server in one piece as 40 people try to join. Something Schine really needs to get some first hand experience at. Keeping a busy server with a good Pirate setup and all the other tweaks working is a monumental task.
     

    Lecic

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    It does work like that. Load up a big ship in StarMade before the cargo update. Then the same ship after the update and look at power used by just having it undocked and doing nothing. You may need a ship that has not been modified to work after the cargo update. I am not at my StarMade pc so i can not upload a Blueprint to show this right now.
    Now, granted, the faction I was in when the cargo update dropped was running entirely shield tanks with no armor when the cargo update dropped, but I certainly never noticed any change in power consumption between the two updates. My current faction runs a large number of ultraheavy armor tanks, which I have build many ships for, and I've never noticed any amount of insane passive power drain when doing nothing with those either- just the little bit of power that maintaining shields at 100% takes even when you're not under fire.
     

    Criss

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    Players are being punished for trying to build the most effective system because it is not supposedly artistically pleasing.
    As far aesthetics go, we don't really care how you make something look. What we (I) care about is that I can hit the bow of a ship, which is hundreds of meters from your aesthetically pleasing "power core" and do damage to your power ca current power system extends lines of blocks through a ship in order to maximize efficiency. Just an example, but the same problem applies to all other systems. They are not concentrated, and therefore your aesthetic choices are just that, aesthetic. As I explained in my example, my engines cannot hold all of the thrusters my ship needs. They would need to be disproportionately large for that to work. Of course that is one reason, others were outlined in the original proposal.

    My miners are just a big block of salvage beams. It works great. It does what it needs to do Mine!
    Yeah, there should even be a challenge in building a capable, large mining ship. I can accomplish the same thing you have by placing down an equal number of blocks in any way I want. No consequences. Boring building mechanics. It gives me creative freedom, for sure. But that doesn't make good gameplay.
     
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    On a more personal note, I just finished a ship. 180+ meters I believe. Extensive interior. The rest of that space is naturally filled wall to wall with systems. There is no power core, because power lines run in many directions. I have physical engines on my ship, but due to the shape, it's likely more of my engine power isn't housed in that physical detail. I don't have concentrations of shield systems, it's just a wall of shield modules running along underneath the hull. My scanners fall into the same boat. They aren't concentrated. You could hit a few different spots on my ship and manage to damage a single specific system each time.

    That's not fun for me, and I feel like a fairly average player when it comes to building. I'm not a newb, and I'm not an expert. And nothing about the current system makes me want to be an expert. I don't feel like I can design a power core in anything but an aesthetic way. Same goes for other systems.

    I'm not 100% sure what the proposal can do for the game, but I feel like it is a step in the right direction. That's why I'm willing to try it.
    That's exactly the thing I think as well, when I build my ships. Putting system blocks anywhere on the ship isn't very meaningfull. It is in some way important where to put some blocks, but the sheer fact of scattering shield blocks at the outer part of the hull so they get destroyed first, is what kills the idea of "I build a shield battery system and have a special place for each system".

    The same thoughts I have for power lines, power capacitors, thrusters and secondary weapon systems: They can be put everywhere and could often be scattered around the whole ship if i wanted to build this way. And I think, for a pvp efficient ship, having redundancy by scattering all the systems all over the ship, brings me a big advantage, because no matter where I get hit, I loose a proportional part of all systems, instead of loosing as example a too big part of my power capacitors at once with a nice hit.

    I rather build (what I consider) inefficient and have the immersion of important system areas on my ship. That's why I like the proposal of reworking the power.
     
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    Raisinbat

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    Yeah, there should even be a challenge in building a capable, large mining ship. I can accomplish the same thing you have by placing down an equal number of blocks in any way I want. No consequences. Boring building mechanics. It gives me creative freedom, for sure. But that doesn't make good gameplay.
    But what challenge? Some arbitary pattern we need to follow, and how is that fun?

    We need ships with different FUNCTION, miners that work differently, as well as combat ships. Figuring out what you want your ship to do and optimizing that is fun. Following some stupid puzzle to make your ship better isn't.

    This right here is my point. You fail to see how anything outside of combat could have a purpose. Or that designing a ship haphazardly for anything other than combat is good gameplay. There may not be non combat oriented gameplay now, but we would like there to be. And when that happens, we don't want players essentially "beating" the game because there are no major restrictions for non combat gameplay.
    I really hope you stick to this, but not by focusing so much on how and where the blocks are placed.

    I can't remember whether it was you or lancake who mentioned in a thread that all ships would put shield capacitors under the armor because losing them didn't matter, and i think this is kind of the same mentally i'm seeing here; focusing too much on individual block placement and trying to force complexity into building by having some predetermined pattern to it. Consider instead what would happen if ships focusing on capacity over recharge were competitive; would such a ship have the same priority of which blocks it will want to lose?

    What if we could have miners with different specialties instead; some miners get more ore from the same asteroid, but are much slower, some remove the rocks much faster and some can recover resources from dead ships?

    Second to starmade Aurora 4x Games - Index has the best ship design i've seen so far, and it doesn't have ANY locality or even blocks, you just pile formless systems onto them like master of orion. What makes it great is a massive variety in ships you can produce; engines scale between high speed / high fuel consumption where you want extremes for fighters, but if you go all the way for a cruiser you can't deploy it for more than a single day, to low speed and low fuel consumption; you can make ships run on virtually no fuel but they'll be extremely slow. Same thing with sensors, fire controls and weapons. Different design outcomes is what makes mechanical design fun, not arbitrary patterns.

    On a more personal note, I just finished a ship. 180+ meters I believe. Extensive interior. The rest of that space is naturally filled wall to wall with systems. There is no power core, because power lines run in many directions. I have physical engines on my ship, but due to the shape, it's likely more of my engine power isn't housed in that physical detail. I don't have concentrations of shield systems, it's just a wall of shield modules running along underneath the hull. My scanners fall into the same boat. They aren't concentrated. You could hit a few different spots on my ship and manage to damage a single specific system each time.
    This whole thing is a clear indication you don't PVP. First of all, fights happen at over a km distance, you cannot aim at specific systems, you'll be happy as long as you're hitting your target no matter where it is.

    Secondly you don't know where your opponents systems are.

    Third and probably most important; if those two things change so that you can both see and target a ship's reactor you can instantly kill your opponent once shields drop. How is that fun, or rather how is that more fun than gradually disabling a ship the way it is now?

    I rather build (what I consider) inefficient and have the immersion of important system areas on my ship. That's why I like the proposal of reworking the power.
    And you're perfectly capable of doing this if you'd rather roleplay than combat.
     
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    (...)
    And you're perfectly capable of doing this if you'd rather roleplay than combat.
    But I'd like to combat with many people, and with tactical depth. But a ship has no personal note, if I have to sacrifice so much space that could be used for RP interior, for more system blocks. See I like building efficient and min maxed - but I hope the systems get reworked so min maxing allows me to still put huge RP interior stuff into my ship.

    As long as we don't get such a rework I will stick to my rp building only and hope to one day find a server or some people, who would like to do pvp but with certain build rules.
     

    Crashmaster

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    ...As I explained in my example, my engines cannot hold all of the thrusters my ship needs. They would need to be disproportionately large for that to work.
    Your example ship was designed poorly. Wrong, just wrong. You had an expectation of how fast you wanted it to be but put in no effort towards this goal. This is not the game's fault, it is the builders'. Foresight and planning was only used for half the ship if at all and it was used for the half that makes no difference to its performance. Now, performance is suddenly an issue and no compromises to looks, proportions or even thruster block location in the hull are allowed to try and correct the design for faulty or just lack of any engineering at the onset. Lack of planning, personal ideals about RP/aesthetic location of particular systems in the hull and no willingness to compromise does not indicate a bad mechanic and should not be used as an ideal to design game mechanics around.

    I also agree that the sniping systems argument has no traction in real gameplay.

    Just an example, but the same problem applies to all other systems. They are not concentrated, and therefore your aesthetic choices are just that, aesthetic.
    I think the real problem here is when system choices are aesthetic because all your choices are aesthetic.


    StarMade need to come out and state once and for all whether it intends to be a ship building game or a hull building game you tack little weapons on. If systems get so concentrated that space, shape, routing and placement restrictions are removed or arbitrary rules put in place it will no longer stand out IMO.
     

    Master_Artificer

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    ... I would just like a secondary way to generate power, like the way the devs suggested, that produces this heat and a lot of power, but consumes fuel to do it... with ideally low throughput, as in each resource you put in burns for a while and you don't need to baby it. It would be more block efficient than the power lines potentially (expect for the heat area) so its like you start with the power lines but move onto this new power... But that's just me.
     
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    This right here is my point. You fail to see how anything outside of combat could have a purpose. Or that designing a ship haphazardly for anything other than combat is good gameplay. There may not be non combat oriented gameplay now, but we would like there to be. And when that happens, we don't want players essentially "beating" the game because there are no major restrictions for non combat gameplay.
    except i dont. i talked about how yo could make mining more progressive and less instablock placement spam win.

    lets qoute myself:
    should there be downsides to building how you want? if youre not combat oriented, i already dont see a current downside. you can make an empty ship, a full ship, an efficient ship, an inefficient one. it makes no difference if youre not using your ship for anything, and i doubt a power overhaul will change this. a purposeless ship can still be designed without effectiveness or efficiency in mind.
    i said a purposeless ship can be designed without effectiveness or efficiency in mind; i did NOT say that combat is the only purpose. if racing is a game function, its a purpose. if mining is a game function; its a purpose. if trading is a game function, its a purpose. pvp is the only purpose in the game *currently* that challenges players, because those other aspects are basically nonexistent or broken at the moment. if they become a thing, designing for them will matter. power doesnt need to change for this to happen.

    how can we make a trading ship more purposeful? id wager it has more to do with a stable game economy without massive exploits and with difficult to get resources than anything else. make it harder for people to get everything they want on their own without help...

    how can we make mining more challenging/rewarding? again start with a stable game economy; its too easy to get stuff. a miner you can make with an hour or less work can easily suck up whole asteroids in seconds, and this has nothing to do w the power system itself and everything to do with salvage beams requiring almost nothing to create, buy, and operate.

    power overhaul is not a necessary change to make mining more skill/experience/engineering based when simply fixing the flat ass progression trajectory for the required components will do the trick. make slaving something to my salvagers actually matter. make slapping a 100 deep 500 output salvage array impossible to fire without a more complicated setup, like any weapon would. if you overhaul power, you still have to do these things to fix the problem, and you can do them regardless...

    i can see a lot of potential benefits to overhauling power but im not seeing why its in any way necessary to provide the stuff youre talking about.

    most of what i read about this overhaul is "itll fix stuff that could be fixed without it." just because it COULD solve a problem, doesnt mean its necessary to solve the problem. so if you implement it, implement it in a way that solves a problem that you cant solve with current game mechanics and configs.

    tell me about stuff well see with the overhaul that we wouldnt without it. tell me about how itll make ai function better, or cause less lag and crashes. dont tell me that "i fail to see how anything outside of combat could have a purpose."

    ps
    What we (I) care about is that I can hit the bow of a ship, which is hundreds of meters from your aesthetically pleasing "power core" and do damage to your power
    i watched a us navy destroyer crash into another ship and damage its bow section, far from its power source, and it lost power and had to be towed home. fwiw.
     

    Raisinbat

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    But I'd like to combat with many people, and with tactical depth. But a ship has no personal note, if I have to sacrifice so much space that could be used for RP interior, for more system blocks. See I like building efficient and min maxed - but I hope the systems get reworked so min maxing allows me to still put huge RP interior stuff into my ship.
    And if you'd read all the other posts on this topic you'd know actual PVP builders have interior on their ships. This idea that you cannot do it now is complete bullshit.

    Do you want 99% of your ship to be interior, like empyreon and space engineers? Those games have absolute shit combat because you aren't really fighting each other so much as slowly chewing through bricks with a 0.1% chance to hit the one spot on the ship that instantly disables it.

    People who don't participate in pvp need to stop trying to "fix" it.

    As long as we don't get such a rework I will stick to my rp building only and hope to one day find a server or some people, who would like to do pvp but with certain build rules.
    Aren't there already a ton of servers doing this?

    Your example ship was designed poorly. Wrong, just wrong. You had an expectation of how fast you wanted it to be but put in no effort towards this goal. This is not the game's fault, it is the builders'. Foresight and planning was only used for half the ship if at all and it was used for the half that makes no difference to its performance. Now, performance is suddenly an issue and no compromises to looks, proportions or even thruster block location in the hull are allowed to try and correct the design for faulty or just lack of any engineering at the onset. Lack of planning, personal ideals about RP/aesthetic location of particular systems in the hull and no willingness to compromise does not indicate a bad mechanic and should not be used as an ideal to design game mechanics around.
    That was beautiful :cry:
     
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    Master_Artificer

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    how can we make a trading ship more purposeful? id wager it has more to do with a stable game economy without massive exploits and with difficult to get resources than anything else. make it harder for people to get everything they want on their own without help...

    i watched a us navy destroyer crash into another ship and damage its bow section, far from its power source, and it lost power and had to be towed home. fwiw.
    I thought most of the exploits for economy were fixed a long while ago.

    And the ship probably lost power because of, well, materials in this world don't work like starmade. The initial of everything probably lead to a lot of stuff being thrown on the ground, and it probably bucked a few steam pipes or damaged some shafts/bearings in the back due to the flexing motion that everything must of underwent and knocked out the power. Probably did sever some wires and cables too now that I think about it, but those wouldn't cause the whole ship to lose power like a loss of steam pressure would.
     
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    I thought most of the exploits for economy were fixed a long while ago.
    you are 100% wrong. of course "most" leaves some wiggle room for your position. even if you werent wrong, resources are WAY too easy to get right now for it to matter.

    i know exactly why the ship lost power, thats irrelevant. my point is criss' scenario for power is even more fantasy and nonsensical than what he was arguing against. in a realistic scenario a spaceship taking hull damage anywhere could cause all sorts of havoc and very likely cause power issues... even in a high tech fantasy universe. im not arguing for realism in games, but even fantasy games ground themselves in some realism to relate to players. up is up, down is down, explosions are explosions.
     
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    Master_Artificer

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    you are 100% wrong. of course "most" leaves some wiggle room for your position. even if you werent wrong, resources are WAY too easy to get right now for it to matter.

    i know exactly why the ship lost power, thats irrelevant. my point is criss' scenario for power is even more fantasy and nonsensical than what he was arguing against. in a realistic scenario a spaceship taking hull damage anywhere could cause all sorts of havoc and very likely cause power issues... even in a high tech fantasy universe. im not arguing for realism in games, but even fantasy games ground themselves in some realism to relate to players. up is up, down is down, explosions are explosions.
    well I guess I was mistaken
     
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    Do you want 99% of your ship to be interior, like empyreon and space engineers? Those games have absolute shit combat because you aren't really fighting each other so much as slowly chewing through bricks with a 0.1% chance to hit the one spot on the ship that instantly disables it.
    This is the reason that I think Starmade is vastly superior to the "superficial" games that are becoming more and more common. We are able to fill our ships with systems that matter, without filler. Honestly the idea of a new power system doesn't bother me, but the prospect of filler being a "feature" does.