Why exactly is power broken?

    Ithirahad

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    This is the reason that I think Starmade is vastly superior to the "superficial" games that are becoming more and more common. We are able to fill our ships with systems that matter, without filler. Honestly the idea of a new power system doesn't bother me, but the prospect of filler being a "feature" does.
    But is that really superior? The one thing that I find to be superior about SM's system is the level of customization and fine tuning that is possible, compared to, say, SE, where a cannon is a cannon, a missile launcher is a missile launcher, they all do the same amount of damage and they all look and act exactly the same. The customization and fine tuning could be accomplished in any number of ways; the current method works but if anything I find it rather tedious to work with.
     

    Raisinbat

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    But is that really superior? The one thing that I find to be superior about SM's system is the level of customization and fine tuning that is possible, compared to, say, SE, where a cannon is a cannon, a missile launcher is a missile launcher, they all do the same amount of damage and they all look and act exactly the same. The customization and fine tuning could be accomplished in any number of ways; the current method works but if anything I find it rather tedious to work with.
    It works BECAUSE its limited. Trying to shoehorn in heatboxes is death to the game, especially since you'll be able to fit either fighters or just more docked guns in the empty space. Your idea of important interior is never going to come true because no computer can run a game complicated enough to simulate interior + crew the way you want, especially not in multiplayer.

    Ship space is a resource and when you devalue any resource to pretend its worthless you end up turning the game into a mess.,

    You're the side arguing for a change to be made, you're the ones that need to give a good argument for why this needs to be changed, and yet the eternal question "Why do you need to force interior?" remains unanswered. Once again: Most PVP ships have interior, RP ships suck because they're made by incompetent builders, so its not that its impossible. I'm not saying that to be mean, its simply fact that most of them are caked in wasted mass on dead systems, terrible turret configurations (not just due to size) and abysmal speed. At worst two RP ships, even if 30% interior, should be able to give a PVP ship a fight.

    To me the RP argument simply sounds like "I want MY ships to be on equal footing with PVP designs without putting in any of the effort" because all the things you claim to want, like interior, is perfectly doable. Can anyone provide an actual example of a ship that has RP in it, a SENSIBLE mass distribution(No dead systems and sufficient weapons/thrust), and is utterly dysfunctional in combat?
     
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    But is that really superior? The one thing that I find to be superior about SM's system is the level of customization and fine tuning that is possible, compared to, say, SE, where a cannon is a cannon, a missile launcher is a missile launcher, they all do the same amount of damage and they all look and act exactly the same. The customization and fine tuning could be accomplished in any number of ways; the current method works but if anything I find it rather tedious to work with.
    Think about shields mechanics in its current form. With the current system I can decide how I want the modules to be placed, or if I want "modules" at all. As far as it being tedious goes, I believe that the proposed system could potentially restrict building and creativity, especially with the "heat" mechanic. Again, I really like the idea of a reactor system, but I don't think that filler is the answer, to me it seems kind of like planned obsolescence. I would instead suggest a reactor system that acts independently for each system, say a power reactor, a shield reactor, etc. This way filler is avoided, customization is kept, but there is a legitimate and engaging experience with designing ship systems.
     
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    Aren't there already a ton of servers doing this?
    Please, tell me which ones. Best would be servers in Europe, so lag is not killing me. =)
    But one thing I want to point out:
    And if you'd read all the other posts on this topic you'd know actual PVP builders have interior on their ships. This idea that you cannot do it now is complete bullshit.

    Do you want 99% of your ship to be interior, like empyreon and space engineers? Those games have absolute shit combat because you aren't really fighting each other so much as slowly chewing through bricks with a 0.1% chance to hit the one spot on the ship that instantly disables it.

    People who don't participate in pvp need to stop trying to "fix" it.
    Because of words like those, I had this ridiculous talk a while ago in another thread about "blueprint licensing". Calling my thoughts bullshit. And I made suggestions and talked about what I think would help. Saying a suggestion is bad because it fixes something. I don't understand the logic behind that. Also I said I wanted interior, yes - but I said I wanted interior and system blocks. Your counterargument only makes sense, if you assume that I really want like 80% or more of the ship to be interior. I didn't say that. I said I wanted to have more space, not nearly all the space.

    Your whole argumentatioin is more offending (by exagerating than making any sense. Is this your goal? Winning my opinion by telling me I talk bullshit? Well if you have to call my stuff bullshit and want to get personal, to win an argument...Well you can't convince me like that.

    Your rethoric is very simple, and the underlying ideas and your suggestion to "stay out of pvp discussions because I don't participate in it" are not very strong counterarguments versus my suggestions.

    I am pretty sure you might want to disagree with me now, and you will try to state some arguments that stand against my words. Give it a try - but there is a difference between convincing me in a nice and propper way, and the way you just used. We can talk about it. Just do it right please and I might even be open to argue about it. I mean if you are right and I don't know my stuff, you should have the easiest time of your life to convince me without any need of talking so unpolite and blant. Or is my logic behind this request flawed?
     
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    Also I said I wanted interior, yes - but I said I wanted interior and system blocks. Your counterargument only makes sense, if you assume that I really want like 80% or more of the ship to be interior. I didn't say that. I said I wanted to have more space, not nearly all the space.
    Do you realize that asking for more "space" is just... irrelevant ? I was going to say bullshit but if you prefer proper words, that won't change my opinion though.
    You can already do that, asking for more efficient blocs, because that is just simply the same as asking for more space won't whange anything at all. Someone that will put less room on the inside will still have more weapons and shields while someone filling his ship with rooms and bad systems will see it's ship being useless.
    So what's next... Dead space ? Is that really what you're asking to add in our ships because you want more rooms because you don't put enough thoughts in your ship before building ?
     
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    Well if you have to call my stuff bullshit and want to get personal, to win an argument...Well you can't convince me like that.
    honestly it sounds more like he was dismissing your "opinion" than trying to win you over, because youre wrong and have nothing to offer except opinions formed around inaccurate information.

    if you get offended when people disagree with you, thats your problem not theirs. btw, hes right and youre wrong. pvp ships can have full interiors and perform very well.

    the reason you usually dont see pretty ones is because its an additional time investment that they dont care to make. my pvp ships advantage over you doesnt decrease because i put an interior in it, it just takes me longer to make, so if i dont care about RP im not going to do it. i have some plain, ugly pvp ships and some decorated, fully rp pvp ships. they both function similarly. the idea that they cant or dont is ...bullshit. because its a fact, not an opinion.
     

    The_Owl

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    I shared some insight into cloaked ships and cloak war fare. I was immediately told. We do not like that. We do not want you to play like that. We are going to FIX that. So i never played the test server again.
    Oh boy, i can't WAIT to see how they manage to attempt this. by making cloaking so power hungry it's almost impossible to build perma cloakers, or with so much little power usage all the ships can perma cloak...]
     
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    Raisinbat

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    Because of words like those, I had this ridiculous talk a while ago in another thread about "blueprint licensing". Calling my thoughts bullshit. And I made suggestions and talked about what I think would help.
    I don't know the posts you're referring to but there are a lot of people in favor of interior decorating replacing game mechanics. What they, and you, aren't doing is posting why the suggestion you're making is justified: You want more interior space; WHY. YOU are asking for a change, yet it's somehow never your responsibility to argue for that, it always falls on us to argue against it and that's just not how an argument works; it's extremely lazy on your part, and frankly why are you in a discussion if you refuse to address counterpoints?

    "Why do you need to force interior?" remains unanswered. Once again: Most PVP ships have interior, RP ships suck because they're made by incompetent builders, so its not that its impossible
    You didn't address any of this, you just started whining that someone disagrees with you. Why would i even try to convince you; you aren't paying any attention to what i've posted, nor are you responding to it, as if you aren't even-

    Just do it right please and I might even be open to argue about it.
    What an incredible honor that would be!
     
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    Oh boy, i can't WAIT to see how they manage to attempt this. by making cloaking so power hungry it's almost impossible to build perma cloakers, or with so much little power usage all the ships can perma cloak...]
    The FIX was the 3 seconds delay between being able to recloak after you are scanned or fire weapons.

    I talked about how i used cloaked ships to attack others. I have no trouble defeating people that use cloak not even when there was no delay. So i felt punished for using the system to its fullest.

    There is still a way to negate that delay though.

    It had nothing to do with ship size or perma cloak for all ships at all times.
     

    The_Owl

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    The FIX was the 3 seconds delay between being able to recloak after you are scanned or fire weapons.

    I talked about how i used cloaked ships to attack others. I have no trouble defeating people that use cloak not even when there was no delay. So i felt punished for using the system to its fullest.

    There is still a way to negate that delay though.

    It had nothing to do with ship size or perma cloak for all ships at all times.
    that makes slightly more sense than otherwise, however considering the amount of utter PvP game breakers that exist, maybe someone should talk about them on there...

    pls no i dun wanna lose advantages i have no idea how to do
     
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    that makes slightly more sense than otherwise, however considering the amount of utter PvP game breakers that exist, maybe someone should talk about them on there...
    Be my guest.

    The problem is Schema/Schine made this game. And we the players then started to work with it.

    We got really really REALLY damn good at playing this game. So good that some other players think that what we do is magic or cheating or exploiting or just plain being more effective in our builds.

    That brings me to this:

    So i felt punished for using the system to its fullest.
    This is why i and everyone that knows anything about anything is so worked up over the power update.

    Because we are the winners and now the losers are telling us no no we do not like you to play like that.

    Yeah, there should even be a challenge in building a capable, large mining ship. I can accomplish the same thing you have by placing down an equal number of blocks in any way I want.
    See right here. Criss says there should be a challenge into building. Well damn i picked up that challenge and i WON. If you take the miner example my miner is top notch!

    No consequences. Boring building mechanics. It gives me creative freedom, for sure. But that doesn't make good gameplay.

    No consequences???


    Ha my full system block miner mines better then yours! That makes me the winner. You need to build like me if you want to keep up! Not change the damn rules behind our backs.

    And the 370 pages of user content on the docks are all losers to i gues if we take Criss view.

    Just rebuild everything! AGAIN!


    Boring??? Not good gameplay???


    So i played this game for over two years just to be bored? Not good gameplay. In a SANDBOX game with no limits. The devs are trying to add a wall around it a cage. This is how we want you to play.

    I hate Cargo

    I hate the HP system

    I hate the bloody power rework of old that killed this:

    Orbitalcannon-Uriel


    Good luck with it!
     

    Criss

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    But what challenge? Some arbitary pattern we need to follow, and how is that fun?
    I think following simple rules that apply to more than just power is a more exciting challenge than the current game. The current rules are along the lines of "place or remove blocks so that you get some optimal penetration on your weapons" or "place a layer of blocks that you least care about here so they can soak up damage". Doesn't sound like a shipbuilding challenge to me. Sounds like optimizing a spreadsheet. And there are players that do that.

    What if we could have miners with different specialties instead; some miners get more ore from the same asteroid, but are much slower, some remove the rocks much faster and some can recover resources from dead ships?
    That sounds great and I would like more of that. However, right now everybody wins when it comes to how they build mining ships, because ship design doesn't matter for non combative gameplay. Outside of combat, more equals better. More thrusters to go faster, more cargo to hold more ore, more power for it all, more chaindrives for instant travel. No consequences for putting all of that on a ship.

    First of all, fights happen at over a km distance, you cannot aim at specific systems
    Okay fine. But why should a stray shot in a few different places have the chance of hitting the same system. Systems are generally spread out over a large area under the hull. In the science fiction that I know, systems are not spread out like that. They are concentrated.

    see and target a ship's reactor you can instantly kill your opponent once shields drop
    Not sure where we said we would let you see where systems are on another ship. Maybe find sources of heat, but if you are playing at 1km distances, why would that matter anyway? You said yourself that we wouldn't be able to see what we are hitting to begin with.

    Your example ship was designed poorly
    That would be true if I designed the ship, but it's a replica. The engines are proportionally well sized for the vessel, yet it can't contain enough thrusters in the engines to get it to even 50% speed. How useful would the space shuttle be if it's cargo bay was filled with engine parts?

    i watched a us navy destroyer crash into another ship and damage its bow section, far from its power source, and it lost power and had to be towed home.
    Well fortunately we don't have realistic physics in starmade, or realistic systems. That ship was disabled because the force of impact affected a part of the ship that wasn't even touched, because that structure or it's systems didn't have the integrity to withstand it. I'm talking about a game where I am in some cases forced to spread a system over a wide stretch of space in order for it to even work decently. Just shoot wherever, it doesn't matter. You'll hit some major power line eventually right?

    I hate Cargo

    I hate the HP system
    Genuinely surprised by this one. Without the cargo system there would be no penalty for having extreme amounts of cargo on your ship (in this case additional mass)

    Without the HP system we would still have core sniping. HP system isn't perfect but it's better than the 1 block target you had painted on every ship in the game.
     
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    Raisinbat

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    That sounds great and I would like more of that. However, right now everybody wins when it comes to how they build mining ships, because ship design doesn't matter for non combative gameplay. Outside of combat, more equals better. More thrusters to go faster, more cargo to hold more ore, more power for it all, more chaindrives for instant travel. No consequences for putting all of that on a ship.
    You're ignoring one of the mechanics that are currently missing; those large ships should be much more expensive, but because everyone are spoonfed resources that just doesn't matter. Same thing with much larger combat ships; they cost a lot more. This doesn't matter yet, but once you start getting an economy into the game it will.

    I've been experimenting a lot with cost effective designs lately; like making a ship out of hull + thrust + power and overdrive effect weapons. A ship like that is much weaker when you compare similar mass, but it costs a fraction of a conventional ship.

    Bigger may be better but its also more work to aquire and a much bigger setback if lost; there's absolutely no reason why small ships should equal big ships, it's nonsensical.
     
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    Well fortunately we don't have realistic physics in starmade, or realistic systems.
    again, realism isnt the argument here. the point is to highlight the fact that the current systems damage functions arent any less valid than the one youre proposing.

    You'll hit some major power line eventually right?
    most top end pvpers have a target frame on the enemy ship theyd like to aim for, but this is often how it works out simply because of weapon velocities, target trajectories, inconsistent speeds, and most importantly, *shit ass server desync and jitter from constant sector transitions while moving in combat.* i already know about where i want to focus on an enemy ship to do the most damage based on a quick analysis of its build, but unless were very close and very slow, i cant usually hit that reliably. adding a central power unit is just an even more potent form of "cant reliably hit but a lucky shot instantly ends the fight" is this the flow of combat youre looking for?

    i think shots through an enemy spaceships hull structure should certainly degrade its fighting ability through means of damaging power and weapons, because in any space fantasy i can think of, realistic or not, as a ship takes hull damage its systems begin to lose functions, and if a power line in my 500k mass ship gets hit, itll degrade its power but certainly not remove it entirely. give it a few reactor cores instead and when those get shot the fights over, and were basically back to coring ships....

    speaking of, ive yet to hear any kind of counterpoint at all to this one thing: if we introduce a central power mechanic, how are we preventing players from "coring" each other like they used to... which was horrible. do you know if theres checks in place to prevent this? honest question, i dont know the answer.
    [doublepost=1489883562,1489883445][/doublepost]qft: economy (or lack thereof) rules all.

    You're ignoring one of the mechanics that are currently missing; those large ships should be much more expensive, but because everyone are spoonfed resources that just doesn't matter. Same thing with much larger combat ships; they cost a lot more. This doesn't matter yet, but once you start getting an economy into the game it will.
     
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    What an incredible honor that would be!
    I just told you, that I would like to talk about it in a propper way. But you have no clue about how to talk polite. Sarcasm is not a part of this. Calling my thoughts bullshit isn't a part of this. Do you want to talk or do you want to fight?

    Anyway. You wanted some reasoning behind my suggestion for more space for interior. It is really simple: people who don't like to build rp interior are free to leave the space open. Their ships are still totally functional for pvp. But people who like to have some personal note on their ships and special stuff inside, can still participate in pvp battles then. That change would really help me to join pvp wihtout building two different versions of my ship. Wouldn't you benefit from pvp too, if there were more players, because you suddenly also have the players who like to build pretty interior?

    About: "That's not how an argument works":
    Btw. it's totally normal, that people only say, what they want in the end, and don't talk about the whys. That might not be the way how to win an argument on the internet, but that's the way how to say what I or you want. Sometimes, if the opponent is someone I like talking to, I explain why I am for this or that suggestion. But I am not someone who is in charge for the development. I am just a small user who likes to have this or that feature. I am not responsible to explain myself here to you, only if I like to because I think you understand my point. I think I explain it the wrong way around: It's neccessary to first state, what I want. If I also had done the longer explanation of it in my first post you reacted to, I would just had written unneccessary words. Why? Imagine I wanted my roommate to clean the kitchen. If I not only said "hey I want our place to be tidy", but also explained him a long WHY he would hate me because I behave like his parent. Often people just agree with stuff, but if they disagree, you can allways talk abou it. But you often might not have the talk about it, if you just react with "what you think is bullshit and what you want is wrong". And often it's totally unneccessary to talk about long WHYs - if my roommate would say: "I like to life dirty", every talking only makes it worse, and it's better to part ways but staying friends, isntead of a unneccessary fight and unpolite words.

    And some other dude called my stuff again bullshit. I just said I don't want to argue in this manner. So I don't answer the question of this guy.
     

    Criss

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    adding a central power unit is just an even more potent form of "cant reliably hit but a lucky shot instantly ends the fight" is this the flow of combat youre looking for?
    give it a few reactor cores instead and when those get shot the fights over, and were basically back to coring ships....
    if we introduce a central power mechanic, how are we preventing players from "coring" each other like they used to...
    First, a few times in this thread players have made claims that it doesn't matter where things are located because combat is so imprecise that attempting to target sections of ship are fruitless endeavors. So why does it matter if we changed how systems are arranged internally?

    An example.
    Currently: Systems are spread all over a ship. Fighting is imprecise, which means your shots land across the entire hull and do little damage to systems per shot. After 2 minutes of fighting you've whittled down the enemies systems enough and they are dead.

    Proposal: Systems are more concentrated in specific locations. Fighting is still imprecise, which means your shots land across the entire hull and miss those systems completely. After 2 minute of fighting you finally land a shot that breaks through any protection that system had, and destroy it, killing the ship.

    As for the second thing I wanted to say. I'm not certain we ever said we would let players see where these concentrated targets are, I've not heard of it. Not sure how you expect to core anything if you can't find out where to shoot. You'd need knowledge of the design. That isn't being given out just because the mechanics changed.
     
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    First, a few times in this thread players have made claims that it doesn't matter where things are located because combat is so imprecise that attempting to target sections of ship are fruitless endeavors. So why does it matter if we changed how systems are arranged internally?

    misrepresented my argument to make it weaker. if some other player made a statement about placement being pointless, why did you qoute me then direct that to me? i did not ever say it doesnt matter where things are placed. i said its hard to intentionally target specific stuff. because it is. how in the world does that suddenly mean placement isnt important? just because my weapon pcs are hard to hit on purpose doesnt mean i should just say fuck it and strap them to the nose of my ship;good placement reduces accidental and incidental destruction. i have a hard time believing you dont know this, and feel like you are trying to devalue my position.

    An example.
    Currently: Systems are spread all over a ship. Fighting is imprecise, which means your shots land across the entire hull and do little damage to systems per shot. After 2 minutes of fighting you've whittled down the enemies systems enough and they are dead.

    Proposal: Systems are more concentrated in specific locations. Fighting is still imprecise, which means your shots land across the entire hull and miss those systems completely. After 2 minute of fighting you finally land a shot that breaks through any protection that system had, and destroy it, killing the ship.
    except this isnt how it will play out. as of right now, some systems are obviously more important than others, but in a well built ship redundancies or leeway in tuning can keep a ship fighting after some of its main systems get damaged (weapon pcs, core power, maybe aux) and what youre not seeing when you observe a fight instead of participating is how those well built pvp ships are handling problems like having their main weapon pcs shot out from under them or having their power shredded enough that it cripples most of their functions.

    in your proposal, one of the major crippling conditions (power) is removed for a rng based luck roll on if that metagun projectile instakills you. youve changed literally nothing about placement being important, while removing one aspect of dynamic adjustment to stat loss during combat and replaced it with "roll dice, 1 and 6 = instant loss." in no scenario does this add to gameplay. if aiming were easy, itd be insta core. since aiming is hard, its RNG core. either way, youve introduced an instawin element, and piercing through defenses is INSANELY easy.


    As for the second thing I wanted to say. I'm not certain we ever said we would let players see where these concentrated targets are, I've not heard of it. Not sure how you expect to core anything if you can't find out where to shoot. You'd need knowledge of the design. That isn't being given out just because the mechanics changed.
    i did not claim you said anything of the sort. its about 95% irrelevant though. weve both said its difficult to purposely aim for a specific spot on a ship, except for when youre moving slow or not at all, which is an important caveat to note as it does occasionally happen... so going by our own agreement that aiming on purpose is difficult, why does it matter so much if we know there the reactor is in frantic combat? the simple fact that IT EXISTS is enough to introduce a random i win element, because shots dont always go where theyre aimed.

    also, have you never heard of build mode spying? t takes 3 seconds to snoop through a ship and find its weak spots, whether you manage to take advantage of that knowledge or not.
     
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    Criss Would you care to address the concept of "fillers," as they were discussed in the original thread? While some may not like the idea because it is a change in mechanics, others are concerned over this side of the proposal which deals with the very essence of how we construct our ships. I tend to think that filler is bad due to the lack of intuition behind it. Just because there are pockets of highly engineered sections of a chip [reactors] they are kind of nullified by the lack of engineering with filler. Even as ships currently stand there is still a "purpose" to all systems beneath the hull.
     

    Criss

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    Criss Would you care to address the concept of "fillers," as they were discussed in the original thread? While some may not like the idea because it is a change in mechanics, others are concerned over this side of the proposal which deals with the very essence of how we construct our ships. I tend to think that filler is bad due to the lack of intuition behind it. Just because there are pockets of highly engineered sections of a chip [reactors] they are kind of nullified by the lack of engineering with filler. Even as ships currently stand there is still a "purpose" to all systems beneath the hull.
    Well that's tough isn't it. Because arguably on many science fiction vessels, there are redundancies and systems that are less important. You could have air conditioning on a ship, to regulate heat and cold. And not just because the heat is a problem on a ship, but because people on ships want to be comfortable. There would be water filtration, air filtration, electronic systems for lighting. Consoles that allow you access to a range of nearby systems, sensors and diagnostics. All of these things, even air filtration can be disabled for a time due to combat damage, and it wouldn't really negatively impact the performance of the ship.

    The reality is starmade doesn't include those things. Not sure ever will. I think at some point we have to start using our imagination. A lot of those elements would work well on a smaller scale I think, but in StarMade we are dealing with fleets of ships, not just one. We've got to compromise somewhere. That's where a general filler block comes in. I would prefer if it gave actual value to a ships health however. Hell, we could even use it to support the crew system. More filler material provides health for the ship and enables you to support more crew without the need for specific life support systems or crew resources.
     

    Crashmaster

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    That would be true if I designed the ship, but it's a replica. The engines are proportionally well sized for the vessel, yet it can't contain enough thrusters in the engines to get it to even 50% speed. How useful would the space shuttle be if it's cargo bay was filled with engine parts?
    I would like to see some pictures, stats, ratio of surface area to volume if possible for this ship we are discussing. Proportional engine size is a rather objective measure to justify change upon especially given varying views on what volumes of the ship are considered 'engine'. To me the 'engine' or powerplant being the largest component of a ship is normal including internal components much larger then the visible exterior vectoring cones or thrust nacelles.

    I downloaded a nice scale-ish (37m long) Space Shuttle from Community Content by Anubis Evo; Space Shuttle Launch Set I replaced the advanced orange armor on the separable main fuel tank with standard orange armor (it's not a tank, oh wait) and escaped planet gravity with a functionable scanner satellite in the cargo bay instead of engine parts.


    Maybe you should replicate something that was designed better? /sass
     
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