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    The Pinnacle of Roleplay

    Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Code North, Nov 27, 2018.

    1. Code North

      Joined:
      May 27, 2015
      Messages:
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      *personal opinion* *tldr @ bottom*


      Looking at the current state of the game, i came to a conclusion:

      The current version is the optimal setup for the roleplay community

      I know, i know, hear me out first.

      The current Starmade gameplay essentially consists of building a pretty ship and flying it,
      the power system makes it possible to roleplay a ship with multiple reactors, for jumping,
      defence, mining. Weapons look pretty and have all the same range wich means you can have
      small arrays of guns beams and missiles and roleplay freely along about who hits/shoot who
      in mockbattles with the loveable turret control, in fully designed ships with nice interior at low speeds.

      The current weapon balance means that any attempt to play competitive makes people
      fly I delete your ship buttons.. wich works both ways, so everyone loses.
      This removes all the much hated, toxic, min/max players from the equation, since
      its simply no fun to play for them and they move on to other games.

      The standard pirates and stations are so weak you can fight them and enjoy the thrill of pve
      even in a smaller ship, without fear of getting insta killed.

      So i think its a win for the roleplay community and we should make the best out of it,
      instead of complaining about things that should not effect roleplayers in the first place.

      Now if you would leave your personal opinion (aka absolute truth)
      in the comment section while i wait for my ban for *made up reason im reported for*
      thx for reading

      TLDR: CURRENT starmade BUILD is better without pvp/meta since its not fun,
      Roleplay does not really need balancing so its the way to go and make the best
      with what we got.

      Edited: redid Tl:dr missed crucial details, confusing/triggering people.
       
      #1 Code North, Nov 27, 2018
      Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
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    2. Muffin_man17

      Joined:
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      This may become a controversial topic. It may be a time that Pvp players are off on other games but I still think there are still Pve features missing. The default faction ships are currently broken working with the old system blocks which true you can still roleplay but PVE not so much. With the current version of the game you could do a Dnd style RP with a SM (StarMaster) who flies around and sets up pre-saved stations and sends ships your way which does sound fun. I think for most of the Pve community it would be better to still hold off for now until we 1. Have proper planets 2. Have working AI for Npcs 3. Generally have more things to make the universe feel more alive, like a Universe update perhaps :P
       
      #2 Muffin_man17, Nov 27, 2018
      Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
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    3. klawxx

      klawxx Product Manager - Roden Shipyards

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      unless... you forgot to disable enemy spawns of you blueprints and approaching a pirate station spawns several's of your Titans firing at you... LOL
      ... Happened to me yesterday on a "live ammo firing test"...
       
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    4. Muffin_man17

      Joined:
      Sep 29, 2014
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      The same thing happened to me last week when I was working on a station and noticed beams suddenly shooting through the station. Gave me a good scare xD Luckily had backups of the station now filled with holes. Always save periodically!
       
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    5. Nauvran

      Nauvran Cake Build Server Official Button Presser

      Joined:
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      No
      Beams currently do less damage at longer ranges than missiles and cannons, technically they then dont have the same range.
      The weapons are also incredibly unbalanced making some setups completely worthless to use even inPvE.

      Even PvP focused ships can have a nice shell and decent interior. Literally nothing is stopping you from roleplay in any way.
      So you made a ship good for you.
      I make nice ships as well but they suck for combat, why? because I dont give a rats ass about system performance like other people do.
      [/QUOTE]

      there is no balance in the current configs, it's a fucking mess.
      The reason you get these ships is because the weapons and systems needs balancing, simple as that.
      NO IT DOES NOT REMOVE ANY TOXICITY OR HATRED. Everyone is pissed about how awful the balance currently is.
      Oh I see you want the PvP community gone because you dont like to play multiplayer games with PvP interaction in it.


      They are very weak because they havent been updated to the new systems yet and iirc they are impossible to properly kill because they use the old power system. There is no thrill in it at all.

      No it's not, any battles in PvE is going to be fucked over by the poorly balanced systems, Beams are currently overpowered and can easily kill everything. The reason people complain so much is because it needs to be fixed. Stop finding bad excuses for not fixing what should be simple configs for the game.
      System and weapon balancing will directly affect any roleplayer if they choose to try and put in any systems in their ships and do any combat be it pvp or pve.

      [/QUOTE]

      My personal opinion is that you dont understand how videogames work.
       
      #5 Nauvran, Nov 28, 2018
      Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
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    6. CyberTao

      CyberTao 鬼佬

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      Gr8 B8 M8, I R8 8/8.
       
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    7. Thadius Faran

      Thadius Faran #1 Top Forum Poster & Raiben Jackpot Winner

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      [​IMG]

      Here we go again.
       
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    8. Code North

      Joined:
      May 27, 2015
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      13
      Edited to be forum rules compatible as instructed by moderator.



      (section removed) to expand on the concept of: Roleplaying needs pvp meta balancing... and how roleplaying needs PvE?
      Roleplaying and PvE are two different things in the first place. (section removed)


      Also:

      (section removed)
       
      #8 Code North, Nov 28, 2018
      Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
    9. DukeofRealms

      DukeofRealms Count Duku

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      There's no need to resort to name-calling or ad hominems, focus on the substance of the post... not the person who posted it. Code North and Nauvran . Otherwise, we're going to have to lock the thread.
       
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    10. Nauvran

      Nauvran Cake Build Server Official Button Presser

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      So you dont have PvP or PvE in the RP servers in starmade?
      To have any sort of combat, hell to even have a ship move we need to have the systems and weapons balanced so you can better roleplay.
      It's not fun when beams are able to obliterate everything and cannons dont even do any damage, meanwhile missiles are just phasing through everything so have fun trying to roleplay with a missile boat of any sorts.

      Last I checked in on Ragnorok they had both PvE and PvP depending on the situations in the roleplaying but even if you're just flying around warping or mining then we still need to get those basic systems balanced proper. You cannot and will not be able to get away from having to try and balance a game.

      Im not being toxic, Im annoyed. Annoyed that these kind of statements you spit out continue to plauge the starmade community. Why the actual fuck should we not get the game balanced so we can play it and test it? Development might as well just completely stop if we dont get the current configs balanced. YOU are being the toxic one, calling out PvP players as the enemy.
      I might be an ass but Im certainly not being toxic.

      And it's Mr. Gerian
      Nauvran Gerian
      --- Updated post (merge), Nov 28, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 28, 2018 ---
      Im not being that bad.
       
    11. klawxx

      klawxx Product Manager - Roden Shipyards

      Joined:
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      first, I'm not a native speaker so please be gentle on that, since I'm sure I'm about to be beaten to death.... but anyways.

      I think what the OP was pointing is that with PvP people leaving for other games, bad system balance for both pvp & pve and non-existent survival aspects before the "Universe Update", hes trying to be optimistic and explaining that we could use this moment to use our creativity, maybe record some videos and do some editing; Use StarMade as a universe sandbox tool to create histories and lores that could be saved for later use or just to fill the gap, while we wait for "better starmade days".

      As a personal view, I also think we should scrap power 2.0 / weapons 3.0 and go back to 199.xxx and somewhat append chambers system there... since it was the only plus I can see.

      But first of all, everyone that's angry should remember that all these last year changes where made, even if not exactly the way they asked, to try very hard to appease all the (mostly) PVPers concerns, people that complained day and night on the forums, driving the devs crazy... and now just vanished (in a "wold of warcraft /gquit style") because they didn't liked the way things turned out.

      In my humble and not fully informed opinion, Schine should had used Occam's razor and banned the crap of the spaghetti / lol-o-cubes exploiters from all the servers/forums, instead, they tried to appease the agitators, that in the end, trowed them on the fire and left.

      I think the OP is really trying to keep a positive mind on something thats more than a simple game to some people; To me its more like a childhood dream coming true. Hellya, I always wanted to draw 3D spaceships. Its worth it even if broken and unbalanced.
      --- Updated post (merge), Nov 28, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 28, 2018 ---
      Just an PS: I, from the bottom of my hearth, believe that StarMade will NEVER be balanced like, an E-SPORTs could, since its too darn "conceptually" big. IMO its impossible to balance the aspects of something so broad. If you do limit its scope, then maybe you could, but it would loose all the fun, so please no!

      They should focus on fixing game breaker bugs, then adding content after that and in the end, do the minor fixer and performance issues.
       
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    12. MeRobo

      MeRobo Scrub

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      I'd disagree with this statement. RP does need balancing, at least from the moment it involves ships spawned in with actual resource usage and not commands as well as anything that isn't a mock battle. Either the game is in a somewhat balanced state or the people engaging in RP have to do the balancing, via configs or down scaling certain systems and therefor circumventing the imbalance.
      Now to the second part of this statement. I don't see how starmade could ever be in a state of being "without pvp" unless there was no way to damage other players and their creations or no multiplayer at all, both not sounding particularly desirable for RP, due to limiting it. I also fail to see how a game could be without a most effective tactic available.
      Can we now find a way to not get rid of the non-toxic "min/max" players who get hate for the sole reason of being vaguely associated with the "wrong" people, often by those who spread the weird myth that all/the vast majority of the "toxic" behavior in this game's community originates from within the pvp community?
      Not being perfectly balanced doesn't mean that some degree of balance isn't needed. A good balance could have one weapon/defense type ending up as the strongest but should have the others in striking distance, as in when utilizing their strengths able to defeat the on paper stronger choice. Leaving the balance in a place where there's a choice so clearly the best that all others only serve the function of making their users the target of ridicule takes quite some fun and variety out of the game, too.

      A bit of a personal tangent: I really don't like this "perfection is unobtainable so there's no point in striving to get closer to it" approach as it appears to be based on the weird assumption that you can't get closer to perfection without obtaining it.
       
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    13. klawxx

      klawxx Product Manager - Roden Shipyards

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      This is important. I'm not advocating against trying our best. we should always do the best we can. But I think that in the context of StarMade, balance wont be attainable in a way that it could be, for example, in Eve Online. can you imagine the shit storm that would be allowing players to create their ships blocks by blocks over there?
       
    14. kulbolen

      Joined:
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      *actual TLDR: leave the game a broken mess to spite some pvpers.

      good one, its not like 99% of the games other players also left because its broken and unfun or anything...

      oh.
       
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    15. Code North

      Joined:
      May 27, 2015
      Messages:
      13

      I fear its important to repeat it:

      I am talking about the current build of the game, not the game in general, for all eternity and beyond...
      wich i should realy edit into the tl:dr... so thank you to bring it to my attention that i screwed that one up.


      Looking at the past and how things turned out when a competitive element existed,
      like exploit users of a certain homeworld faction , noodle ships, my personal observations of people missing the line between rp/pvp to
      griefing and those who tried to set an elite standard preying only on those that could not defend themself aka new players...

      Yes one day it will be possible, but for the current build i personally enjoy the lack of those people.
      And to add to it: "disclaimer: not all pvp players are toxic"





      Thank you for taking your time to help me to bring my viewpoint accross, much appreciated and its nice to see likeminded people on the forum.





      I might have to stress that im not talking about the game in its whole and its vision for the future, im talking about the current build.
      there are servers for every playstyle and if one is missing one is free to start his own so yes i understand that things can be mixed and
      need balancing.

      What seems to be a missunderstanding here is the clear difference between pvp/pve and RP.

      If someone asked me if i wanted glitch free balanced gameplay for all, logical working game mechanics and a server side system to set rules and limitations or even classifications on playerships and engagements, i would be the fist to shout yes.

      But the current build does not check one of those boxes, so i try to speak my mind in a positive way that at least we can build pretty ships
      and play pretend... since thats literally what RP is.. as sayed and portrait with examples like mock battles.

      For dukes sake i will skip commenting on the last paragraph.

      So thank you Mr Nauvran Gerian for sharing your view on the topic
       
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    16. NeonSturm

      NeonSturm StormMaker

      Joined:
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      When I make ships, I want nice interior too.
      But I also make efficient ships for tech proofs and comparison. Mostly with logic and now-ancient stealth + perma-cloak spagetty ships.

      But I miss the building and modding aspect in SM.
      1. e.g:
      You can not easily define your own solar power plates - not even on your own server.
      Because you can't add a rule that counts the ship's surface or says simply "Mass is cubic, surface is area, let's take mass^(2/3).
      2. e.g:
      You can not easily add consoles to your ship which are linked to a blueprinted computer.
      Remote entity data transfer is limited also - not linked with the targeting system, display-content over rails = not available too.
      You also have to worry about inconsistency, unloaded entities, bugs saving displayblock-content, etc.
      For 1. eg:
      Why not give players the ability to define:
      X can be substituted with blocks A, B, C.
      Y can be substituted with blocks E, F.
      Z can be substituted with blocks J, I.
      factor A = 0< 70% <sm_max.
      factor B = 0< 140% <sm_max.
      factor Z = "ship mass".
      factor A = A + E / F * 7 <= Z/10000. --- everything bigger and A will be set to Z/10000
      X = shape "volumetric". --- alternatives "gate (warpgates)", "line (old reactors)", ...
      Y = shape "enclosing" X. --- alternatives could be //shape "line/volumetric" touching X// --- Y would be a pipe between chambers / chamber after pipe.
      factor "+power" = faces Y with X

      We could define our own rules for how a system needs to look to work most efficient, allowing more RP.
      For 2. eg:
      First, display blocks need 2 section (header and content), [maybe] content 128 chars, header 96 chars + 32 reserved for SM-code. [/maybe] The header is individually static (between input and content, content and display; player-defined) and the content is dynamic (regex allowed and between content and display/output)
      • That allows the optimisations of code for using server-wide pipes into which you can login and logout via passwords and loaded whitelisted entities.
      • Whitelist: Current-Target / Sector-Count / In-Range / Shared-Master-Dock / Shared-Password / the Dock / Ship docked-at
      And it is also required to permanently/consistently safe a specific display block conent as well as enable/disable a whole logic-cluster at once. It needs to be sure that it does not partially load/unload.
      • Then you can have ships calling home regularily until they are dead and that raises an alarm or info-message.
      • Or you could build an intergalactic gate-network to communicate with other peoples over a chat-system you yourself programm with logic-regex.
      It would also help if the whole circuit could be in a blueprint inserted into a "computer block" working with text,
      Else the computers would be bigger than 1960 ones within a Sci-Fi setting.
      This also allows optimisation to not load the whole entity but only a "not rendered on screen" circuit emulator.
       
    17. Dr. Whammy

      Dr. Whammy Executive Constructologist of the United Star Axis

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      Schine does not consider StarMade to be geared toward any specific play-style. Instead, Schema seems to want it to be a "WEYW" (Whatever you want) game; meaning PVE, RP, PVP, RTS, etc. in any combination you can imagine.

      The whole point of a balance is so that ALL aspects of ALL play-styles can become equally viable (or at least as close to it as possible) and thus, enjoyable.

      Right now, the game does favor RP over other play-styles simply because everything we have now is either incomplete or broken. In RP, you could technically have a battle with mining beams and block swords if you wanted. Literally nothing is stopping you from making whatever crazy RP scenarios you like, since it's all based on your imagination. Unfortunately, PVE and PVP don't have the same advantage; as PVE is lacking in content and competent AI while PVP is so poorly thought out that victory depends on following a single META or abusing exploits.

      Whatever your play-style preference, I think we can all agree that this game needs some serious work to make it as attractive as it once was.

      I hope Schine can get their act together while there's still some interest in the game.
       
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    18. NeonSturm

      NeonSturm StormMaker

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      Using exploits cause lag. They are bannable.

      An exploit is an exploit when 75% aggree of it being undesireable. (because it causes unneccessary lag compared to a feature that allows same, or because it needs (both technical or on-others) gambling to decide of availability).
      Everything else is up to discussion and view perspective.
      When I consider board games:

      They have rules and it is often clear who abuses them. You can "count cards" to enhance your knowledge about what others statistically have on their hands, but then you still have to decide whether someone bluffs or not.

      You can play these games on a social or mathematical level, both have their advantages / disadvantages. Playing them purely mathematically and being unable to hide your knowledge about you thinking of being in (dis)advantage is also social level.

      The main reason casinos ban "card counters" is, because they play against the casinos - draining them of their gain (which they think belongs to the bank-holder and they count on these having some advantage over players in gain).

      The other main reason could be, that swapping players, exchanging their card-counts secretly, will betray any challenge on social.
      Betray: "Let others intentionally make false assumptions about your obj/subj knowledge of the game-state."
      It's all about the false asssumptions and hindering others to comprehend the game of life which makes up betrayal and consequences.

      You Can't exclude these social features on SM either.

      If an "exploit/bug/feature" is equal for all, official knowledge, imaginable to exist, desired to have for "advanced builders", then it's ok.
      These old power stripes provide an example of 23^3 "perfect" reactors to reach the maximum before diminishing returns.

      They were "rather good". But spagetty-systems throughout your ship to reduce hull size or min-max mass for cloak were not.
      Even newbies could easily get one via pre-available copy-paste templates (provided we would have implemented that back then).
      New reactors are still better for performance, because they require less exposed surfaces on standard reactors, and offer more options.

      To fix all these issues, we may need to get the community and dev team together to design ships out of blocks "how we like to have it".
      (including decorative/new-nonfunctional blocks which stand for future implementations).

      Then we define stats of that ship and blocks not as exact values, but "defined/relative" value ranges.
      Example: "Armor = Slightly above average" (there is a "common, average" plus a "theoretical max" and it is about 10% on that way up)

      We can say: "This ship has about 10% of it's value dedicated to combat."
      This means NOT that 10% of the ship are weapons/armor/shield blocks.


      It means that 10% of it's mass (including required more on thrust, more on power, more on whatever) is reasoned by combat over role.
      You have "100% Core + Value<Max + Buffs in mass/value".
      Core is the minimal setting, Max the maximum setting, Value includes 10% dedication to combat, etc. and Buffs are on-top.
      Buffs can be size-Buffs (merging 2 ships) or because of role-changing (narrowing/extending) from original designs.


      If we have a trader, that trader could use overdrive-weapons to re-use power dedicated for jump-drive for combat instead.
      The reactor would not count to mass (because it's already there for jump-drive) and the overdrive-weapons do 3x dmg per block total (thus weight less).
      Once we have these fictional ships, we can decide which block stats we need for those.

      We would build these ships not for the general audience, but either for the future default settings of blocks or a future specific mod which should be supported.

      We should try to put systems in good rooms and get at least that crew interior we have in real life houses plus have a room for every room on a common ship of that role from the current-reality.
      If someone makes a borg-cube for PvP/PvE battle or not, should be considered in a different way:
      We simply make blocks for role-play and blocks for survival and blocks for PvE and PvP.
      1. PvP:
        • Consists mostly of full 1x1x1 blocks suplimented by other blocks (like "example: wedges of non-advanced armor", etc)
        • Strong for 10, weak for 50 seconds, stealth has 5x time, etc. (RED BUTTON for all shorttime-buffs, Yellow Btn for aux-buffs)
        • Includes vector shields (primary absorbs 80% dmg to blocks and drains 30% energy that weapon would require directly)
        • Includes warheads, weapons which regenerate ammunition outside combat, etc.
      2. PvE:
        • Consists of a few more blocks (wedges, edges) and are only medium armor (used to decorate PvP ships).
        • Focus on global shields and simple automatic modification to buff either "hit", "run" or "hold out".
        • No variable strengths/weaknesses.
        • Ships are bigger but also require less rare-mineral amounts (rare minerals yield less per asteroid, harder to obtain)
      3. Role-Play:
        • Everything available.
        • PvP for military settings, PvE for civil settings, Survival for scavenger/poor-ppls -settings and they can mix up.
      4. Survival:
        • Solar plates / Chemical batteries from plants and "SM-copper" / etc.
          Cheap, light, inefficient, limited to mass^(2/3). Comparable to reactors in mass, half e/s, limited amount and very low hp/structural for their mass but buildable out of any materials.
        • Tier1-factories are cheaper without enhancers and require solar plates.
      5. Station:
        • Some blocks are 2x2x2 and have 3x efficiency + 5x heavy armor included
          No need for more block-IDs / definitions, just if something has "station" in it's name, then use 5x heavy armor to place a block and make it bigger.
        • Heavy armor is comparable to PvP, but way more mass and as cheap as PvE/Survival blocks.
      Those who are known to have bugs (wedges for docked armor overlapping or blocks which snake-run through your ship) are not available in the PvP-tier, so that potential abusers are weaker.

      We can also reuse reactor blocks and just add a 0-points "military chamber" which buffs output by 20% but PvP-Flags you.
      These chamber blocks are also expensive (resource types are rare and amounts high). Wedges are not needed (just take these PvE ones)
      Perhaps we can use a full-blocks rotation to enhance the hp-value on military/PvP blocks but disable shapes on these.

      You see, we can make it a lot easier to balance by just introducing military-mod blocks.
       
      #18 NeonSturm, Nov 30, 2018
      Last edited: Nov 30, 2018
    19. klawxx

      klawxx Product Manager - Roden Shipyards

      Joined:
      Jan 5, 2016
      Messages:
      240
      I would love it if we could somewhat avoid spreadsheet battles, or at least leave those for the galactic market side of the game. I don't want to feel that I'm at work when playing StarMade, not that I do not like it, mind you, but If you want to increase the player base the calculations could be advanced, but be transparent and intuitive to the majority of the community.

      I like the power 1.0 complexity, the pro user could build interestingly and time consuming "fractal" docked reactors while 75% of the players could just use power blocks to intuitively achieve their goals. Maybe that merged with the new (but more thought-out) chambers would be awesome.

      NeonSturm deserve that circuitry badge since what he proposes could be understood and applied by the devs, but it may be confusing for the average player base. (Take this as a compliment, please). I believe that this kind of talk should be done between selected members of the community and the dev team in a reserved area, IMO. Some players might be scared and avoid StarMade if they see it to be too complex or mind challenging. Trying to think like a public relations / marketing side of this here, but also as a "average" player here.

      I think a VIP PASS or something like it that gave selected, advanced, members of the community direct access to the schine team would had solved all those problems that brought StarMade to its knees. I believe this was atempted with the concil but was left behind when we most needed it.

      It need to be decided if StarMade are a community at all or just a guy that share his free time project with people over the internet when it pleases him. Please, take no offense schema , but that what it looks like at the moment.

      As a side note, I don't have the faintest idea of whats goes on that Discord, I'm old and avoid those social media things like facebook and tweeter, if all the dev posts moved there and what not, but as far as I know, https://starmadedock.net is the place to go for StarMade info and news, so please, someone correct me if I'm wrong.
      --- Updated post (merge), Nov 30, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 30, 2018 ---
      ROFL at this:
      schema was last seen: 6w 4d ago

      This cannot happen. He could, I don't know, pay a buck to a nephew to log in and out regularly, or just hide this info, but this is surely bad for business.

      Maybe DukeofRealms could help us here.
      "Make starmade great again!" as the US president says =)
       
      #19 klawxx, Nov 30, 2018
      Last edited: Nov 30, 2018
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    20. Thadius Faran

      Thadius Faran #1 Top Forum Poster & Raiben Jackpot Winner

      Joined:
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      Is work referencing your actual job or EVE in this case? xP

      Discord's not really comparable to FaceBook or Twitter, I highly recommend checking out the official StarMade discord and some other StarMade related ones like Cake Build Server's discord.
       
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