Scanner Computer activation via logic

[Lecic]

Starmade is, first and foremost, a PvP game. Attacking someone's structure in a PvP game is not griefing. End of discussion. Can we get back on topic? Thanks.

 

[Jojomo]

Starmade is, first and foremost, a PvP game. Attacking someone's structure in a PvP game is not griefing. End of discussion. Can we get back on topic? Thanks.

Not so simple.

It depends on why you do it - if you do it to reduce their effectiveness/cost them resources/improve your own position/etc then it isn't griefing.

If you're doing it because you want to upset the owner/you think it's funny/etc it is griefing.

Like the word itself suggests, griefing implies a particular attitude, not simply action itself.

 

[Lord_Greyscale]

2. A scanners ability to "break" a cloak/radar jammer should be linked to the power of the scanner. A single block antenna scanner should not be able to disable my cloaker or jammer.

Far as I knew, this is allready the case, as you recieve a "unable to" message if the scanner isn't big enough to un-cloak/un-jam a target.
(the bug is the message playing even when there isn't a target to be un-cloaked/un-jammed, though the bug seems to have been slain recently)

 

[Lecic]

Far as I knew, this is allready the case, as you recieve a "unable to" message if the scanner isn't big enough to un-cloak/un-jam a target.
(the bug is the message playing even when there isn't a target to be un-cloaked/un-jammed, though the bug seems to have been slain recently)

This doesn't exist. A single block scanner will decloak and unjam anything. The "unable to" message was a bug that only appeared when you scanned and there was nothing in the sector and not for anything else.

 

[Lord_Greyscale]

This doesn't exist. A single block scanner will decloak and unjam anything. The "unable to" message was a bug that only appeared when you scanned and there was nothing in the sector and not for anything else.

Allright, thank you for correcting my mistaken information.

But, that then makes the message, ... very very odd, as it certainly implies that such a system is, at the least, allready planned.
(and partly implemented, since that specific message shouldn't even exist if they hadn't started working towards balancing it)

I know they've got their hands full doing NPC stuff, but I'm left wondering why that wasn't fleshed out a little bit more.

 

[splatthecat]

I have used my cloaked ship to coordinate the firepower of another players ship fighting a pirate wave that was attacking a third players base. I was able to vector in attacks and also provide a go/no go advice to the third player who was trying to get to his escape ship.

I have in the past used it to carry torpedoes to ambush an enemy ship as it undocked from their homebase. I also retrofitted one with a small AMC cannon for a covert assassination mission.

In fact, the player in the first example who was carrying out the combat arrived in the target sector cloaked.

The closest I get to griefing is nosing around other players bases whether they are online or not. I have no intention of causing damage, leaving traps or otherwise acting like a prick though I know sadly some people do.

I do however begrudge spending time making a fast warping permanent cloak ship that is power stable only to have the cloaker knocked out by someone who can put a single antenna module on a scanner computer and what, 9 power reactors!

 

[Lecic]

- Radar Jammer appear as fast solution to coredrilling at the cost of breaking the balance at fighting against npcs. At this moment you still use it to abuse from non human entities.

Coredrilling? What? That's been out of the game for over a year at this point, I think. And NPCs can still target jammed ships, they just have reduced accuracy.

- I think I've never seen the Cloaker used in "real" combat beyond creative uses like suicide sticks or stealth torpedo launcher.

A surprise attack with a stealth torpedo launcher isn't "real" combat? Yes it is.

 

[jorgekorke]

What I'm trying to tell you is that activating the scanners by logic only gives advantage to entities not managed by humans, against humans if these are not newies you will not notice the difference.

Good luck trying to aim a can/bea artillery ship by long range or even a logic variant at a rjammed vessel that is not a titan.

 

[jorgekorke]

Okey i need good luck, but let me follow your reasoning.

You are using cloakers-jammers to "explore" a sector to let other ships "sniping" stuff from far, if you need to use an "stealth" ship means not human are at those sector piloting stuff. Can you answering me this please, your "sniping" ships are using radar jammer at the moment they shot?

I don't want to sound like an ass, but what are you trying to tell me?

 

[Gasboy]

In the current state of the game I absolutely oppose this.

Cloak, jam and scan mechanics are getting an overhaul eventually and in light of that, I would like to see a mechanic that would allow these systems to have counters to one another.

I like the idea of an always on passive scan that will drain a cloak and eventually drop it, but I want to be able to build my cloaker in such a way as to slow down the scanner's affect on my ship at the cost of some other stat.

This is probably the best idea I've heard regarding this issue. And mechanics like it are already in game, the jump drive and jump inhibitor. And I think this kind of mechanic for cloak and scan would allow for scanners to be on a logic clock, the cloaked ship would have some cloak UI added to the HUD, and they would get a warning that their cloak was being drained. They could have time to exit the area, and they'd have information they could use. With some work, they could pinpoint the location of the entity running the scan, and maybe figure out a way to kill it.

 

[Lecic]

Lecic had you used that full stealth torpedo launcher vs non human entities? Those torpedoes were no facioned? what happened? you think that is fairplay or funny?

Sorry, what? Are you accusing me of using stealth torpedo launchers vs an AI station and that I think this should remain in the game? As I've stated, I want AI/stations to scan upon taking damage from a cloaker or if there's a jammed ship near them, and I've never used stealth warheads on anything but players. I'm just opposed to logic scanners because they would be incredibly op in the current state of the game.

 

[DrTarDIS]

Sorry, what? Are you accusing me of using stealth torpedo launchers vs an AI station and that I think this should remain in the game? As I've stated, I want AI/stations to scan upon taking damage from a cloaker or if there's a jammed ship near them, and I've never used stealth warheads on anything but players. I'm just opposed to logic scanners because they would be incredibly op in the current state of the game.

Like how stealth warheads are OP troll-mechanics to players and their assets ? Two way street there when you start crying "incredibly OP"

 

[Lecic]

The use of logic scanners only gives an advantage to non human entities, remember a "docked radar" near the core room is nearly equal than a logic radar.

Definitely not. Not only would it be faster and more regular with logic, it would be fully automated as well. You don't even need to switch into another entity anymore. That's definitely overpowered.

Like how stealth warheads are OP troll-mechanics to players and their assets ? Two way street there when you start crying "incredibly OP"

It doesn't JUST kill stealth warheads (which are currently only OP vs unmanned stations and AI, not players, and wouldn't even be OP with my solution anyway), it also kills any sort of stealth scouting ability. No more spying on bases, no more spying on ships. It kills any sort of small ship that takes advantage of jamming to help it fight larger ships as well.

 

[DrTarDIS]

It doesn't JUST kill stealth warheads (which are currently only OP vs unmanned stations and AI, not players, and wouldn't even be OP with my solution anyway), it also kills any sort of stealth scouting ability. No more spying on bases, no more spying on ships. It kills any sort of small ship that takes advantage of jamming to help it fight larger ships as well.

I don't think smaller ships should be able to fight larger ships at all. An x-wing should not be able to take on a star destroyer, a star destroyer should not be able to take on a super star destroyer. "balance" should be on a per-mass basis, period. Using "smaller ships will have trouble fighting larger ones" as an argument is quite frankly silly. The ONLY method of combat a smaller ship should have vs a larger one is "RUN AWAY." It is due to the thrust curve literally IMPOSSIBLE for a ship of an arbitrary mass to "catch up" to a ship of smaller mass and still be any form of viable threat to another ship in it's own (arbitrary large) weight class.
"no more spying on [properly equipped] bases" sounds about right to me: Why the FRELL should an unfrendly entity be allowed to spy on your base in any other method than reconnaissance -in-force?
To me this remains a very bad argument, one that seems to be framed from a "just go offline I dare you!" perspective. I will additionally note that this is one major reason WHY we generally have either very small (1-2) factions clustered around a single home base, or very large (multiple of 4 or higher than small value) factions, and nothing in between.

Please refer to my post on this subject. Logic scanners, being completely automated and operable at a much higher frequency than normal, would scan rapidly enough to nullify any stealth ship at any point in time, without any required player action beyond activating the system.

If you want to allow such an imbalanced mechanism in the game, you may as well take the extreme route suggested by some, and remove all stealth mechanics until they are rebalanced; this is not dissimilar to the consequences of allowing unhindered logic scanners.

It is more important to consider more subtle solutions, which have been suggested on various occasions in this thread. They are paraphrased below, with author credit.

1. Logic scanners allowed, but can only decloak entities and docking chains containing warheads (Heillos)
2. Allow stations and AI ships to scan automatically after taking damage or if they spot a jammed ship within their sector (Lecic)
   
3. Stations will automatically scan at a low frequency when a non-friendly is detected in the system, and no faction members are online (Sachys)
4. Detonating warheads, or undocking a child entity containing same, will break cloak/jam (Presumably imposing the 6-second "weapons fired" cooldown on cloaking) (Jojomo)
5. Impose a range limit on the decloaking functionality of logic scanners, but still allow them to note the presence of cloaked ships at greater ranges (texkiernan)
6. Make the stealth/scanner balance similar in behaviour to jump drive/jump inhib balance, with time to decloak varying based on the relative strengths of the conflicting ships (Magrim)

Personally, #6 is quite favourable, although others might be more suited to a speedy patch prior to the full rebalancing which the system clearly needs.

Unless you can somehow dispute the claims I make in the post I linked above, I would very much like to steer the discussion towards solutions to the problem stated in the OP (fixing the balance of cloaked warhead pokers vs. unmanned stations and entities) that do not simply allow unhindered logic scanners.

Totally agree on #6 as a viable rework, but that same rework will put interesting stress-tests on entity mass ratios. I think that bears some scrutiny, as I was quite in favor of the "old" cloaking/power balance where it was difficult to use anything but 0.01 mass blocks to hull your cloaker and still have mass left for shields, passives, etc.
I'd like to add a #7 to your list there, wherein the e/sec generated by an entity would in of itself be the balancing factor in scanning/detection: A higher e/sec entity SHOULD be more visible to scanners(or even your basic HUD without any scanners) than a low one. I think this methodology could even address Lecic 's concern regarding "spying made EZ mode is now too hard" (I HAVE to be a little derisive about that, my nature demands it) , and your own "but I can only cloak if I'm more than a full sector away from the nasty auto-scanner!" concerns.(ed: note, this is the CURRENT IMPLEMENTATION OF #5: only in-sector entities decloak!)


Perhaps some form of combination with other thoughts could be implimented. IE a passive "jamming" module that lowers your e/sec signature(enough of them making it close to zero and thus effectively "jammed") at a mass-cost, and scanners devoting e/sec continuously(or while "active", or both) to increase the range at which you can detect 0 e/sec entities from your own.
edit: SOme punctuation fixing I missed first pass, and:
Hell, we don't even need to add new modules: Put the existing circuits and charged circuits to use distributing the e/sec, requiring equal mass of circuits and brute-force(25e/sec/block) power generation to achieve a null-signature.

 

[Lecic]

An x-wing should not be able to take on a star destroyer, a star destroyer should not be able to take on a super star destroyer. "balance" should be on a per-mass basis, period. Using "smaller ships will have trouble fighting larger ones" as an argument is quite frankly silly. The ONLY method of combat a smaller ship should have vs a larger one is "RUN AWAY." It is due to the thrust curve literally IMPOSSIBLE for a ship of an arbitrary mass to "catch up" to a ship of smaller mass and still be any form of viable threat to another ship in it's own (arbitrary large) weight class.

So you're both pro gigantism and unaware of the current state of large versus small? That's embarrassing.

I am not talking about 1:1000 mass differences, I am talking about 1:2 or 1:3 mass differences, where a smaller ship can take on a bigger ship currently. Being able to jam can play a big part of that. Logic scanning would annihilate any form of jamming or cloaking whatsoever. You might as well just remove the systems from the game if logic scanning is added.

"no more spying on [properly equipped] bases sounds about right to me: Why the FRELL should an unfrendly entity be allowed to spy on your base in any other method than reconnaissance -in-force?

Because gathering information on your enemy is important in a game like this, and being forced to send your entire fleet and get half of it blown up by base defenses just to do recon on an enemy is an incredibly stupid idea?

To me this remains a very bad argument, one that seems to be framed from a "just go offline I dare you!" perspective. I will additionally note that this is WHY we generally have either very small (1-2) factions, or very large (multiple of 4 or higher than small value) factions, and nothing in between.

Please elaborate on how the game's lack of logic sensors and how being able to look at someone's homebase in a cloaker when they are not online is somehow killing medium-sized factions. That's not the reason we don't have many medium sized factions, but I would love to hear how this makes any god damn sense to you.

 

[DrTarDIS]

So you're both pro gigantism and unaware of the current state of large versus small? That's embarrassing.

I am not talking about 1:1000 mass differences, I am talking about 1:2 or 1:3 mass differences, where a smaller ship can take on a bigger ship currently. Being able to jam can play a big part of that. Logic scanning would annihilate any form of jamming or cloaking whatsoever. You might as well just remove the systems from the game if logic scanning is added.

It would annihilate KNIFE FIGHT singe-sector cloak vs scannerbattles, yes, but not ones at any meaningful range. Light and evasive (RE cloaking/jamming by any other game's name) would have to stand-off and "kite". Hunh, that almost seems like a TRIED AND TRUE method that's been used across a shit-ton of games, and real life! 0.o

Are YOU unaware of the range at which cloak gets tripped-up by scanners? That's embarrasing in a thread about cloaking.

I am pro "bigger should win a knife fight, all else being equil" yes. Anything else is as retarded as the short-bus kids.

Because gathering information on your enemy is important in a game like this, and being forced to send your entire fleet and get half of it blown up by base defenses just to do recon on an enemy is an incredibly stupid idea?

or, it's a "cost of information." Getting half of it blown up IS a stupid idea, but anyone who wouldn't be using max-overdrive, "spy from the next sector over" or any INTELLIGENT method of data-aquisition is, indeed, STUPID and deserves to be blown to hell. Do you self-identify as someone who can't think of those options?

Please elaborate on how the game's lack of logic sensors and how being able to look at someone's homebase in a cloaker when they are not online is somehow killing medium-sized factions. That's not the reason we don't have many medium sized factions, but I would love to hear how this makes any god damn sense to you.

It's more being able to troll non-homebase via jam/cloak glitchyness. Any faction with more than 1-2 people suffers from lag-hell in homebase sector due to build creep. Any faction that's too small (RE not atleast 8 players) to effectively retaliate and/or "sit on the porch with a shotgun" in shifts suffers from that form of cloak/jam troll to it's satilite bases which mitigate thelag-hell. I'd love to hear your own reasoning on how it's NOT a problem. I'm sure it will be as truthful as a Hillary Clinton speech.

ED: quote tags messed up. DERP

 

[Lecic]

It would annihilate KNIFE FIGHT singe-sector cloak vs scannerbattles, yes, but not ones at any meaningful range. Light and evasive (RE cloaking/jamming by any other game's name) would have to stand-off and "kite". Hunh, that almost seems like a TRIED AND TRUE method that's been used across a shit-ton of games, and real life! 0.o

Are YOU unaware of the range at which cloak gets tripped-up by scanners? That's embarrasing in a thread about cloaking.

I am pro "bigger should win a knife fight, all else being equil" yes. Anything else is as retarded as the short-bus kids.

Actually, no. The most effective fighting tactic for small ships versus large ships is to get into knife fighting range, as large ships will be unable to outturn you. Jamming is primarily something activated if the big ship manages to get its guns on you, allowing you to escape back into its blindspot before it can lock onto you if it's using missile systems, and for the initial approach on the large ship.
With a logic scanner setup scanning every second or 2, something that would be incredibly easy to set up, this sort of maneuver becomes completely worthless to even attempt.

What's your fighting experience in this game? You don't seem to have much experience with real combat in this game, so I would advise against making statements on it.

or, it's a "cost of information." Getting half of it blown up IS a stupid idea, but anyone who wouldn't be using max-overdrive, "spy from the next sector over" or any INTELLIGENT method of data-aquisition is, indeed, STUPID and deserves to be blown to hell.

Spy from the next sector over? Don't be ridiculous. On servers with even remotely large sectors, it would take AGES to cross the gap in build mode, and you're not gaining much useful information if you're just looking at basic stats and mass from a sector away.

Do you self-identify as someone who can't think of those options?

No, I've already thought through those options and know how and why they wouldn't work. I only replied to your suggestion of "recon in force" because that's the only one you made, and I'm not going to waste my time typing up why options that no one has even mentioned wouldn't work.

Additionally, lolz xDDDD le funny self-identify me-mes, xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

It's more being able to troll non-homebase via jam/cloak glitchyness. Any faction with more than 1-2 people suffers from lag-hell in homebase sector due to build creep. Any faction that's too small (RE not atleast 8 players) to effectively retaliate and/or "sit on the porch with a shotgun" in shifts suffers from that form of cloak/jam troll to it's satilite bases which mitigate thelag-hell. I'd love to hear your own reasoning on how it's NOT a problem. I'm sure it will be as truthful as a Hillary Clinton speech.

What kind of moron has non-homebase bases? I don't think any faction I've ever been part of or can even think of off the top of my head has had faction-sanctioned extra storage bases. Any smart faction that absolutely needs to just hides fleets in the middle of nowhere, rather than using a pointless station.

And, no, you're absolutely wrong, "lag hell" isn't even there up until absolutely massive faction bases ever since the incredible docking optimizations Schema added a while back. This is assuming you have even a remotely structured faction leadership to keep a maximum of 1 to 2 ships per person (1 faction warship, 1 personal ship if you just ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY need one) and a shared mining fleet, and rules against laggy personal ships.

Medium-sized factions are not as common as small or large factions because your numbers are twisted. 1-2 player factions are rarely really factions, they're just solo/partners who need a place to keep their stuff.
So that just leaves the medium factions and the large factions. So why are medium factions so rare? Because any successful medium faction will become a large faction due to their fame, and any unsuccessful medium faction will decay, shedding members and fleet power, and eventually disband. Medium factions are rare because they stop being medium factions, not because the game doesn't have logic scanners to defend bases that those medium factions should not even have or need in the first place.

 

[DrTarDIS]

Actually, no. The most effective fighting tactic for small ships versus large ships is to get into knife fighting range, as large ships will be unable to outturn you. Jamming is primarily something activated if the big ship manages to get its guns on you, allowing you to escape back into its blindspot before it can lock onto you if it's using missile systems, and for the initial approach on the large ship.
With a logic scanner setup scanning every second or 2, something that would be incredibly easy to set up, this sort of maneuver becomes completely worthless to even attempt.

What's your fighting experience in this game? You don't seem to have much experience with real combat in this game, so I would advise against making statements on it.

unsure if you're actually unable to conceive of the English-language tenses I used, So I'll Clarify one presumption you're working off of here that's wrong:
You are talking "current most useful" I'm pointing out "the use that would occur, if logic scanners screwed up yer knife-fight jamming/cloaking." Do re-read the post you quoted in that context.
In case you still don't get the logical extension of that: Stealth-combat would change, but not be utterly useless. DO try to keep up.

Spoiler: lul learn to spess komdat. you talk like a Kilrathi flies

I have plenty of combat experience. My best throw-weight win is 10:1 out-massed odds. In a knife-fight scenario I'd personally consider shield-drain and stop-cannons to more important in out-massed maneuvering battles than a poor-man's-cloak. But that's me, and the finer details of pew pew aren't related much beyond: logic scanning wouldn't do more than a competent multy-player action in close proximity(same sector) knife-fights.

If your personal flight ability can't cope with that change, if it's not "EZ Mode" enough for you to out-class-fight without melee-range-invisibility, I think that says a lot about your flight tactics. It ALSO sounds like BALANCE to me.


Pick up a wing-commander game or two. Do their tutorials. Learn J-burns and common Newtonian tricks. Then learn how they become insanely OP in starmade's "set your own vectors" omidirectional thrust system with close ranges.. I think YOUR combat experience is showing, lil bro

Spy from the next sector over? Don't be ridiculous. On servers with even remotely large sectors, it would take AGES to cross the gap in build mode, and you're not gaining much useful information if you're just looking at basic stats and mass from a sector away.

Sounds like "QQ no EZmode" to me. Yup, think I called it. Fundimental difference in what we call "balanced information control.". You're telling me you wouldn't want to prevent exactly that from other (enemy) players against you/your faction, or at least make it tedious and difficult or costly? Especially with how scanners and the G-map FoW works now, your expressed view troubles me.

Spoiler: more context problems. This guy must be ESL, I'll make allowances

No, I've already thought through those options and know how and why they wouldn't work. I only replied to your suggestion of "recon in force" because that's the only one you made, and I'm not going to waste my time typing up why options that no one has even mentioned wouldn't work.

Additionally, lolz xDDDD le funny self-identify me-mes, xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD



What kind of moron has non-homebase bases? I don't think any faction I've ever been part of or can even think of off the top of my head has had faction-sanctioned extra storage bases. Any smart faction that absolutely needs to just hides fleets in the middle of nowhere, rather than using a pointless station.

And, no, you're absolutely wrong, "lag hell" isn't even there up until absolutely massive faction bases ever since the incredible docking optimizations Schema added a while back. This is assuming you have even a remotely structured faction leadership to keep a maximum of 1 to 2 ships per person (1 faction warship, 1 personal ship if you just ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY need one) and a shared mining fleet, and rules against laggy personal ships.

Medium-sized factions are not as common as small or large factions because your numbers are twisted. 1-2 player factions are rarely really factions, they're just solo/partners who need a place to keep their stuff.
So that just leaves the medium factions and the large factions. So why are medium factions so rare? Because any successful medium faction will become a large faction due to their fame, and any unsuccessful medium faction will decay, shedding members and fleet power, and eventually disband. Medium factions are rare because they stop being medium factions, not because the game doesn't have logic scanners to defend bases that those medium factions should not even have or need in the first place.

Sounds like the factions you're part of have left you with a sadly small scope of experience. Sucks to be you. "What kind of moron has non-homebase bases?" really underlines that. It also underlines the best reason for logic'd scanners. You can have a different opinion all you like, but do tell me you follow that simple level of brain-cell rubbing.

Docking lag is but a small part of home-base hell. The "laggy personal ships" part is indeed one facet. There's PLENTY that leads to home base hell and thus plenty of reasons to expand and satellite.