Reason for having an interior

[Vyor]

Sorry sir, I bought it up in the first place. Won't happen again.



But there's nothing we can really do to implement that without compromising other ship designs. I would more focus on giving high interior space ships a combat advantage, rather than nerfing the latter. As rece put it, restricting what you can build in what is basically a sandbox game is a BAD idea. Maybe we could go along with the whole crew stations idea, but they would also need a place to eat, sleep, and possibly a med bay if that's not too much.

COST!!!!

 

[MrFURB]

Well, fuck you then. There is no other way to put it. You want to limit players. High mass ships already cost more. So, screw you.

Please remain civil on the forums. When you insult someone, you change the topic of the argument and your original topic is lost within a flurry of any of several things that come with an overly-heated debate; emotional outburst, one-upmanship, and personally directed attacks.

When one wants to challenge the ideas of another, they must do so on that idea's home territory. Find false assumptions, root out misuse cases, reveal incompatibilities, and instead of promoting one person's opinion over another use your proof to improve their idea until it has no visible flaws left.

 

[War Dog]

Looking at the OP, I'm going to have to disagree. I don't see how this'll help ships with interiors, it just forces all other ships to have interiors.

This won't stop high-efficiency ships at all, they'll just add cramped, ugly, minimal stations with tiny tunnels somewhere in that mass of shield/power/amc; thus rendering the effort moot.

 

[Visitor]

Looking at the OP, I'm going to have to disagree. I don't see how this'll help ships with interiors, it just forces all other ships to have interiors.

Not OP, but if you'd be kind to take a few minutes to continue checking the thread, you may notice that it won't really affect all ships. It will dominantly change the way currently big ships are being build, which currently boils down to the designs of small effective ship but with piling up more blocks.

Given that money are hardly a problem, big ship size is only minor inconvenience when fighting all kinds of agile, swift enemies and currently each player can control effectively one ship no matter the size, that leads to complete waste of potential regarding tactics or viability of different sizes od ships, allocation of personnel and resources. That's why the forum is currently full of requests for big ships to require NPC/player crewmembers for optimal effect - including this suggestion and associated requirements of said NPCs, to avoid them being just another component one will get for their dreadnought without any adjusting of design.

I am willing to suspect that many people, no matter if they hope for immersive adventure, satisfaction of building nice vessels or play the game to participate in epic battles - are tired of boring slugfest battles using ships as big as possible where all the tactics is 'keep shooting them with our big guns and let's hope we have more blocks than they do to keep us going' with complete disregard for planning or a place for different types of units of different sizes.

This won't stop high-efficiency ships at all, they'll just add cramped, ugly, minimal stations with tiny tunnels somewhere in that mass of shield/power/amc; thus rendering the effort moot.

Not necessarily - the variations between different size of structures ergo necessary personnel ergo necessary interiors will still provide a certain differences in design. This idea - as far as I can see - isn't to deter effective designs though, but create a certain variation between them, optional ability to create aesthetic interiors for those who care about such and add to the different angles of balance between ships of different sizes - which currently is hardly existant as the only limiting factor is cash for blocks and that can be acquired very easily.

 

[Lecic]

Well, fuck you then. There is no other way to put it. You want to limit players. High mass ships already cost more. So, screw you.

No, the way ships currently work limit players. The only way you can play competitively is by building Death Cubes.

Cost is never, ever an excuse for lack of balance. It's the same reason all those suggestions Minecraft players make for a god sword made from 6 diamond blocks and a stack of obsidian suck, because cost isn't balance. Cost can work as a balancing feature, but when something's cost doesn't outweigh how unbalanced it is, it needs to be rebalanced.

 

[rece ktore leczo]

Lecic It seems You are on a crusade against cube ships. Please stop. They would be balanced, so there is no need to try to nerf them by making every suggestion have similar goal - to make cube ships less OP or even nerf them to the useless levels.

I don't know where are You playing, but i haven't met so many cubes to have trauma from them.

 

[Lecic]

Lecic It seems You are on a crusade against cube ships. Please stop. They would be balanced, so there is no need to try to nerf them by making every suggestion have similar goal - to make cube ships less OP or even nerf them to the useless levels.

I don't know where are You playing, but i haven't met so many cubes to have trauma from them.

I am on a crusade against things that are unbalanced. Cube ships are unbalanced.

They would be balanced

I have no idea what you are trying to say there.

Of course I'm going to try to make them less OP. Overpowered things are bad for games. I don't think they should be nerfed to useless levels. I just think that ships people spent hours or days building should at least be on par or preferably better with a similarly massed cube that took a 30 minutes to build.

 

[rece ktore leczo]

To balance cubes firstly we need to know why they are OP, so to balance them, we would need to change mechanics, that make them unbalanced.
Throwing random mechanics suggestions, which are mainly to somehow cripple the cubes, isn't going to solve anything, especially if these suggestions would also forbid building cube ships.

And here is a question for You - what makes cubes OP?

 

[Bannta]

I really think this is idea is pretty good...but more to the point of making NPC useful/bonus and what is required to maximize the bonus. It really is another way to make large ship cost more or add an upkeep....which should be the case.

"On the side-note: crew requiring food and oxygen would be a nice addition, making big ships costly in upkeep"
-basically fuel for the NPC. this could be done by creating a tank(tank block stack together to increase the size volume). Creating a new manufacturer item call bio-mass which can be produce from any factory block and an organic item. Then you just place it in your tank and over time the npc(s) will consume it. If empty you simply do not receive a npc bonus until you get more food. No food no energy to do anything.

-beds, chairs, halo pictures, open spaces, etc.... equal luxury items when make people happy in RL...it can be the case for NPC to make sure their bonus it at 100%. So it schema can count the luxury items in a ship and apply a point system pre NPC that is required to create a bonus than we are are in business.

Also I think there should be one more modifier. Who the NPCs think the captain of the ship they are assign is. So if the captain of the ship is on board than the 100% maximal is possible. If the captain is not on board but is part of the same faction than the max is 90-95%.

Also if a NPC crew is still left in a ship the core will not explode however the crew will die if there food runs out...after that the ship will despawn. That way the only way to take a ship with a crew is to kill off the crew.

 

[Vyor]

To balance cubes firstly we need to know why they are OP, so to balance them, we would need to change mechanics, that make them unbalanced.
Throwing random mechanics suggestions, which are mainly to somehow cripple the cubes, isn't going to solve anything, especially if these suggestions would also forbid building cube ships.

And here is a question for You - what makes cubes OP?

I can answer that for him, and it is the very thing he seems to be ignoring and even said is not why they are OP.

The economy is broken! That is it, the only reason. When the economy is fixed, these ships will be less common.

No, the way ships currently work limit players. The only way you can play competitively is by building Death Cubes.

Cost is never, ever an excuse for lack of balance. It's the same reason all those suggestions Minecraft players make for a god sword made from 6 diamond blocks and a stack of obsidian suck, because cost isn't balance. Cost can work as a balancing feature, but when something's cost doesn't outweigh how unbalanced it is, it needs to be rebalanced.

No, it's more like those mods that allow you to build a diamond sword with dirt. The cost of a diamond sword balances itself. You don't know anything of game design do you? The cost of something, whether it be skill, exp, gold, or some other resource, should match it's power. Esp. considering how even more broken this would make these ships compared to unmanned ships.

 

[Vyor]

Please remain civil on the forums. When you insult someone, you change the topic of the argument and your original topic is lost within a flurry of any of several things that come with an overly-heated debate; emotional outburst, one-upmanship, and personally directed attacks.

When one wants to challenge the ideas of another, they must do so on that idea's home territory. Find false assumptions, root out misuse cases, reveal incompatibilities, and instead of promoting one person's opinion over another use your proof to improve their idea until it has no visible flaws left.

Sorry, it's just when someone wants to nerf something that is already balanced(in other suggestions and the most likely WIP economy fix), it gets on my nerves

 

[Lecic]

I can answer that for him, and it is the very thing he seems to be ignoring and even said is not why they are OP.

The economy is broken! That is it, the only reason. When the economy is fixed, these ships will be less common.

No, the problem is that they take less time to build, turn faster, and are overall more efficient in every way over a skillfully built capital ship. Making the items to build them harder to get will probably end up with just more cube ships, because you'll try to make your ships as resource efficient as possible, and make them much less likely to die in battles.

My proposal on how to rectify this horrible creativity killer is this-

• Re-add the xyz dimensions of a weapon affecting its range, reload, and projectile speed, but make it more balanced than it was before, to make needlegun ships less powerful than they were.
• An overheating system, like Arkudo has suggested.
• A crew system needing interiors, as this thread suggests
• The HP system, while already planned, is helpful to my goals. I'd just like to point that out.

 

[War Dog]

Okay looking a bit further... I'm EVEN MORE against this idea.

What would be the deciding factor of how many NPCs are needed to run a ship?
- If it's mass, then ships with fancy interiors lose out to high-efficiency ships with mininal interiors and similar mass as more mass is taken up by interior design.
- If it's dimensions then again, ships with fancy interiors lose out to high-efficiency ships with minimal interiors and similar mass as they take up more space to make room for interiors.

As a Dwarf Fortress player, I live by efficient housing, If all NPCs need are a bed and some tiny decorations then that's all they're going to get. So my ships will always win against players who design more detailed interiors if the ships are of similar size.

I mean, why build fancy interiors when you can just do this?

You want NPC housing? There's your NPC housing. Want more? Too goddamn bad! You're NPCs! You don't have souls!

If anything this accomplishes exactly the opposite of what you want.

 

[Lecic]

Okay looking a bit further... I'm EVEN MORE against this idea.

What would be the deciding factor of how many NPCs are needed to run a ship?
- If it's mass, then ships with fancy interiors lose out to high-efficiency ships with mininal interiors and similar mass as more mass is taken up by interior design.
- If it's dimensions then again, ships with fancy interiors lose out to high-efficiency ships with minimal interiors and similar mass as they take up more space to make room for interiors.

As a Dwarf Fortress player, I live by efficient housing, If all NPCs need are a bed and some tiny decorations then that's all they're going to get. So my ships will always win against players who design more detailed interiors if the ships are of similar size.

I mean, why build fancy interiors when you can just do this?

-image snip-

You want NPC housing? There's your NPC housing. Want more? Too goddamn bad! You're NPCs! You don't have souls!

If anything this accomplishes exactly the opposite of what you want.

What if NPCs have a minimum size, like what you have there, but work at increasing efficiency when you give them larger and more extravagant, well furnished rooms, because they are happier?

 

[Aecetym]

Anything that would force ppl in building interiors would end up in poor builds and ways to aviod spending time in making/designing them yet benifiting it's boost(s).

As a person that loves building interiours in my ships I don't like the idea of getting boosts for building them nor the idea that you need them or you will have a less effective ship.

Building an interior should be the choise of the player himself as to me it makes a ship that more intresting.

 

[1adog1]

No, the problem is that they take less time to build, turn faster, and are overall more efficient in every way over a skillfully built capital ship. Making the items to build them harder to get will probably end up with just more cube ships, because you'll try to make your ships as resource efficient as possible, and make them much less likely to die in battles.

My proposal on how to rectify this horrible creativity killer is this-

• Re-add the xyz dimensions of a weapon affecting its range, reload, and projectile speed, but make it more balanced than it was before, to make needlegun ships less powerful than they were.
• An overheating system, like Arkudo has suggested.
• A crew system needing interiors, as this thread suggests
• The HP system, while already planned, is helpful to my goals. I'd just like to point that out.

In reality the only REAL advantage cube ships have over ships of the same mass is their turning speed, and that change is minimal. I put interiors in my ships because I want to be proud of my creations, to add my own creative aspect to the game. If people want to make cube ships, let them. Someone with a bigger ship, or a similar sized ship and more skill, will come around and blow them to bits knowing that they destroyed a ship that had no creative skill put into it. I'd much rather shoot at a 50x50x50 cube than a skillfully made battle cruiser that actually looks good.

One way or another, this is a sandbox game. People are going to build cube ships. Those cube ships will eventually be destroyed by someone who doesn't like them. End of story there.

This thread is NOT about cube ships, it is about creating more reasons for a ship to have an interior, now can we please talk about THAT. If you want to brainstorm ideas to get rid of cube ships, do it in it's own thread.

 

[War Dog]

What if NPCs have a minimum size, like what you have there, but work at increasing efficiency when you give them larger and more extravagant, well furnished rooms, because they are happier?

Okay, what's the max I'm going to need? Take your pick, I've got thousands of them.

This thread is NOT about cube ships, it is about creating more reasons for a ship to have an interior, now can we please talk about THAT. If you want to brainstorm ideas to get rid of cube ships, do it in it's own thread.

Lecic touted this as a way to "balance" cube ships when this accomplishes pretty much the opposite and just encourages people to make only minimal interiors for maximum effect. That's the angle I was working on.

Must've accidentally mistaken him as the OP, my apologies.

Needing NPCs to work turrets/docked ships at optimal proficiency should be enough. Directly altering the blocks themselves would require that many more calculations which would slow down the server.

The idea itself is fine, but the execution depends on players knowing what they're doing; which is inherently flawed. The "Kiss" principle (Keep It Simple i'm Stupid).

 

[Vyor]

No, the problem is that they take less time to build, turn faster, and are overall more efficient in every way over a skillfully built capital ship. Making the items to build them harder to get will probably end up with just more cube ships, because you'll try to make your ships as resource efficient as possible, and make them much less likely to die in battles.

My proposal on how to rectify this horrible creativity killer is this-

• Re-add the xyz dimensions of a weapon affecting its range, reload, and projectile speed, but make it more balanced than it was before, to make needlegun ships less powerful than they were.
• An overheating system, like Arkudo has suggested.
• A crew system needing interiors, as this thread suggests
• The HP system, while already planned, is helpful to my goals. I'd just like to point that out.

No, you are just wrong. When all of those other problems are fixed, like they are going to be, it will be more expensive and will only be powerful when you build them right. You want high turn speed? Better sacrifice shields or weapons! You want powerful weapons? Same. Cube ships will become less common because it is inherently more expensive to make a filled box, than something with holes in it. And, like war said, anyone that builds cube ships will abuse this system. This does nothing to rectify any of the problems you listed. Just go away.

 

[Vyor]

Okay, what's the max I'm going to need? Take your pick, I've got thousands of them.


Lecic touted this as a way to "balance" cube ships when this accomplishes pretty much the opposite and just encourages people to make only minimal interiors for maximum effect. That's the angle I was working on.

Must've accidentally mistaken him as the OP, my apologies.

Needing NPCs to work turrets/docked ships at optimal proficiency should be enough. Directly altering the blocks themselves would require that many more calculations which would slow down the server.

The idea itself is fine, but the execution depends on players knowing what they're doing; which is inherently flawed. The "Kiss" principle (Keep It Simple i'm Stupid).

Remove the I'm.

 

[rece ktore leczo]

Ehhh... People are wrong on the internet, so here we go:

I can answer that for him, and it is the very thing he seems to be ignoring and even said is not why they are OP.

The economy is broken! That is it, the only reason. When the economy is fixed, these ships will be less common.

Economy has nothing to do with cube ships being OP. Broken economy only means it's easy to have big ships, no matter what shape.

No, the problem is that they take less time to build

It doesn't mean that they are OP. It only means that they are built fast, with the cost of not looking cool. I can also build ship in 5 minutes, so it would be easy to build, but it wouldn't be cube shaped ship and wouldn't be OP.
Also if the shipyards are implemented, then it only would be possible to fast design ships, but building them would take more time depending on number of blocks used in the ship.

turn faster

There we go. It's the most important factor.

and are overall more efficient in every way over a skillfully built capital ship. Making the items to build them harder to get will probably end up with just more cube ships, because you'll try to make your ships as resource efficient as possible, and make them much less likely to die in battles.

How they are more efficient? If i have AMC made from 400 blocks, it will always have the same stats, no matter where i have it. The same goes for other weapons, power storage and shields. Power reg. has cap at 1 mil, which is easily achieved by placing long lines of reactors, similar for thrusters, which have now this weird thrust calculation.
So it doesn't matter if i place system blocks in cube shaped ship or in any other shaped-ship, what really matters is the number of blocks used in each system. Well unless suggestion from this thread would be implemented, then also number of crew would matter.

My proposal on how to rectify this horrible creativity killer is this-

• Re-add the xyz dimensions of a weapon affecting its range, reload, and projectile speed, but make it more balanced than it was before, to make needlegun ships less powerful than they were.
• An overheating system, like Arkudo has suggested.
• A crew system needing interiors, as this thread suggests
• The HP system, while already planned, is helpful to my goals. I'd just like to point that out.

Current system for weapons stats is working very well, there is no need to change that.
No overheating. Please don't. Just do not.
Yay, interiors FTW. But as i've already said, this is not to nerf cube ships, it's to nerf ships without interior, so building ships with one, wouldn't mean that they have disadvantage in battle.
The HP system with update to turning/acceleration is what You actually need to change cube ships from being OP to simply bad-looking ships.
Do You get it finally? I usually don't do this, but i've mentioned this several times, so i made this huge, bright, bolded, underlined text, so maybe You'll see where the problem really lies.
It's not that they are easy to build, or they are magically somehow able to have systems working more efficient while in cube ship, the whole problem is with 2 things:

1. Cube ships containing the same amount of blocks as other capital ships turn much faster then them.
2. The ratio of surface area to the volume of ship is much smaller for cube ships than for fancy, decorated ships, which is nice till hull blocks (which usually are on the outside) give no advantage in battle. Once hulls would give some advantages like much more HP for the ship or much better defense against damage, then this ratio wouldn't change anything.

That's all, please stop changing everything to have 1 purpose - to nerf cube ship. Thank You.

(Something, something)I wouldn't have this concern if i had read the whole thread with some understanding, because it's not about mass or dimensions, and rece ktore leczo have already answered the problem with small interiors. (Something, something)

Yep, it may not be the exact quote.

What if NPCs have a minimum size, like what you have there, but work at increasing efficiency when you give them larger and more extravagant, well furnished rooms, because they are happier?

It may work for more RP orientated servers, but if it wouldn't require too much job while making the ship, then it could also work on normal servers.
The only problems i see with this is that Starmade would get closer to Spaceship Sims than building ships and it may require more calculating for the whole interior size and the mood of crew.
But maybe if implemented correctly my concerns wouldn't be valid.