New Power DEV Thread

    Joined
    Jun 27, 2013
    Messages
    896
    Reaction score
    166
    I do care about layout too, but obviously I have chosen a different layout than you would have, which I think is perfectly fine.
    So what you're telling me is you think putting the two most vulnerable parts of your ship in the two easiest to hit spots is a good layout?
    For this build, I'm fine with that, yes. Once the shields are gone, I don't think it would matter too much anyway for a ship this size. If I were to go the protection route, I'd have to add way more mass, which in turn pushes up all the other requirements, and would make for a much bigger ship. This one is intended to be cheap, mass-produced, and hit fast and hard from within a pack, it's not designed for prolonged fights.
     

    Lecic

    Convicted Lancake Abuser
    Joined
    Apr 14, 2013
    Messages
    5,115
    Reaction score
    1,229
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 11
    This one is intended to be cheap, mass-produced, and hit fast and hard from within a pack
    Instead of shields, may I suggest an alternative? Sponge tanking with basic hull or asteroid rocks is very cheap and can allow for craft that are much harder to kill.

    Shields are, in general, not worth it for disposable craft.
     
    Joined
    Aug 23, 2016
    Messages
    758
    Reaction score
    129
    I feel like you don't even read the words that I write. I'll put it simply. I have the choice between doing two things. One thing gives me almost double power for my ship. The other thing leaves my ship incredibly power deficient.Which one should I choose?
    If you won't post your design, or just a rough outline of it, or even just the bounding box dimensions, it's very difficult for someone on a forum reading text to fully understand exactly what's going on, no matter how obvious it seems to you.

    My understanding (now) is that putting the reactor in the centre gives not enough power, but putting it at the aft end gives more than enough?

    Based purely on this bit of info, without being able to see anything, I'd say choose a location between the two, or put it in the centre and add more stabilisers at both fwd and aft ends. Even another 100 stabilisers is only 40 mass.

    I have 100% stabilization. If I wanted to I could put a ton of stabilizers near my reactor when it is in the middle, but that means I would have to carry a lot of extra weight. This is something I am trying to avoid in a ship that goes very fast. It's pretty obvious that if I make a stick ship it will be a better interceptor all-around. It'll have more power which means more capability.
    EDIT: sorry, either I used incorrect terminology, or I used conflicting terminology from two different sources. I see in-game that what I called "reactor efficiency" above is labelled "stabilisation".
    To clarify, what I meant was that a reactor should always output it's maximum capacity (e.g. if it has 26 blocks you should always ensure you have 2600 e/s output) but in almost all cases the stabilisers shouldn't be placed where they have 100% effect (i.e. fully green), somewhere closer will almost always be better (increased stabiliser mass will be offset by reduced ship mass that results from a shorter ship).

    I assume you only have 100% stabilisation when the reactor is at the aft end and the stabilisers are fwd, and when you go to the centre configuration average stabilisation drops significantly. Am assuming you have 100% reactor efficiency in both configurations....

    The only argument so far I've heard is, " My ship has even or better stats so you must be doing something wrong." Nobody has obviously made a ship like mine. On top of that it is just dancing around my main point. This new system penalizes all but 1D maximized designs. It takes no time at all now to make a capable ship.
    No-one but you currently knows what your ship is like. It's very hard to give you constructive feedback on what you're discussing if you won't post more information about it.

    It's fair to say it's taking you longer than no time at all to make this ship capable?
    It was trivial to make a capable ship in power 1.0 too if you didn't have pre-existing targets that had to be met...

    I'd have to disagree. There is no fine-tuning that wasn't in the old system. The fine-tuning of the old power system is completely gone.
    I'd agree with Valck: apart from the fact that now only one reactor can be active (I loved multiple reactors), the new system is more nuanced and has a larger decision space.
     
    Last edited:
    Joined
    Aug 23, 2016
    Messages
    758
    Reaction score
    129
    Based on the scarce few numbers you've shared Comradecolonel, we can take a shot at estimating the approximate size of your longest axis:

    The exact geometry is obviously not realistic, but we can get some rough/general insight.
    Build is 200.154

    This first image shows a fitting dimension with your stated numbers of reactors and stabilisers. It's 31 blocks wide/long (not 33 as per the GUI) before.png


    If the reactor is moved to the centre and stabilisers are used at each end we get this:
    after.png

    The same length, same power output, but 153 extra stabilisers (+61.2 mass).

    The main group of thrusters shows what is needed for 2.5 TMR at 700 mass, the forward little group of 58 thrusters shows the extra thrust required to offset the extra 61.2 stabiliser mass at 2.5 TMR.

    Any increased mass for any other systems has been ignored, including the extra thrusters themselves, but the general trend is clear, and an approximate picture of the situation can be formed.
     
    Last edited:
    Joined
    Jul 10, 2013
    Messages
    626
    Reaction score
    486
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 7
    Has anyone noticed that the ship core is now 3x3x3 meters ? Size of a future comand chair ?
     
    Joined
    Jun 11, 2016
    Messages
    1,170
    Reaction score
    646
    Has anyone noticed that the ship core is now 3x3x3 meters ? Size of a future comand chair ?
    Can you, or anyone, make a screenshot please? =) I'm super interested.
     
    Joined
    Oct 22, 2014
    Messages
    338
    Reaction score
    148
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    Looking at some of the language used I'd very strongly disagree that judgement isn't being passed.
    I sure am passing judgement on the builds as they come around, and I sure don't like them recently. See below for why.

    So what you're telling me is you think putting the two most vulnerable parts of your ship in the two easiest to hit spots is a good layout?
    Exactly why I want a build to try that significantly reduces the distance requirement, or eliminates it in favor of conduit connections.

    Edit: I was told in another thread that weapon power has been increased(idk if true), but our ability to make more powerful weapons HAS been increased, our ability to shield has been reduced. This coupled with the now required(almost) placement of the most vulnerable systems has greatly weakened our ability to keep ships in combat protected. Frankly, the old system was better than what we have currently to play with in DEV builds.
     
    Last edited:
    Joined
    Jun 27, 2013
    Messages
    896
    Reaction score
    166
    Exactly why I want a build to try that significantly reduces the distance requirement, or eliminates it in favor of conduit connections.
    You mean like this altered reactor config?
    While it didn't enforce conduits, it eliminated the distance requirement; that should have been enough to at least toy with it. I'm using past tense because in the three weeks since, a lot has changed, and I don't think the file would work as is, but it should at least serve as a guideline as to what changes need to be done.
     
    Joined
    Jul 5, 2015
    Messages
    252
    Reaction score
    51
    The core is still just 1x1x1 meters, it s just calculated as 3x3x3 m in the new info panel, I suspect that this is a bug of some kind.
     
    Joined
    Jun 17, 2015
    Messages
    300
    Reaction score
    90
    Based purely on this bit of info, without being able to see anything, I'd say choose a location between the two, or put it in the centre and add more stabilisers at both fwd and aft ends. Even another 100 stabilisers is only 40 mass.
    People who are looking for maximum performance would eliminate that number with a better design. Because my ship is a square shape, I am stuck with an inferior shape. This wasn't an issue with the old system.

    but in almost all cases the stabilisers shouldn't be placed where they have 100% effect (i.e. fully green), somewhere closer will almost always be better (increased stabiliser mass will be offset by reduced ship mass that results from a shorter ship).
    If my ship was shaped like a twizzler I wouldn't need to make that compromise.

    No-one but you currently knows what your ship is like. It's very hard to give you constructive feedback on what you're discussing if you won't post more information about it.
    The main point that I am trying to make is one that has been made a million times. We are working with a system that universally rewards one type of reactor design. You can get more power by putting down more stabilizers, but that's not my problem. I want an efficient powerful ship. Not one that feels like a giant compromise.

    It's fair to say it's taking you longer than no time at all to make this ship capable?
    It was trivial to make a capable ship in power 1.0 too if you didn't have pre-existing targets that had to be met...
    I was able to go from 2400 e/s to 3800 e/s by simply laying out my reactor the obviously "better" way. It literally took my 5 minutes. The part that took my the longest was mutilating the nose to fit the stabilizers. I was struck with horror and froze, so it added about 4 minutes.

    the new system is more nuanced and has a larger decision space.
    I fail to see how that is the case. Never mind decision space, what decision do I need to make?

    I sure don't like them recently. See below for why
    I had no problem with the earlier builds. It seems like every time I download a new build the distance increases and my power output decreases. If that's the case then I think quite literally we are going in the wrong direction.



    I guess I'm the rear guard on this issue. Everyone else is spent because they've been arguing this for months. I saved my energy but it's fading fast. I don't have the time to argue with people who have already made up their mind.
     
    Joined
    Jul 10, 2013
    Messages
    626
    Reaction score
    486
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 7
    I fail to see how that is the case. Never mind decision space, what decision do I need to make?
    Well you have to decide what role you're giving your ship. It cannot fill in all the roles. You have to give it a purpose as opposed to it being cappable of doing everything while being overpowered at the same time.

    You CAN be "overpowered" but only in a few aspects.

    So decision has to be well thought out.
     
    Joined
    Jun 17, 2015
    Messages
    300
    Reaction score
    90
    No matter what role my ship has, it will perform it better with a bigger more powerful reactor. We're going to end up with a bunch of ships that all have different roles but look the same. The best ship in every role will literally look the same as another ship in another role.

    I still don't see what has to be well thought out either. The system has already decided for my where my reactor components should be. My fixed power output makes it mathematically very easy to plan out weapons and other systems. The most I have to think about is what chambers I want to use, but that has nothing to do with placing the actual blocks. I don't want to be spending a majority of my theory crafting time specing things like an RPG. Totally different from what actually made this game interesting to me.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Ithirahad

    StormWing0

    Leads the Storm
    Joined
    Jun 26, 2015
    Messages
    2,126
    Reaction score
    316
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    Oh, this is actually an ancient bug that seems to have resurfaced. I remember this used to be a problem way back in .13 and .14.
    They should make variable sized cores for grins once they implement some kind of core shifting and rotating. :) Maybe use the reboot functions to change cores? :)
     
    Joined
    Aug 23, 2016
    Messages
    758
    Reaction score
    129
    Exactly why I want a build to try that significantly reduces the distance requirement, or eliminates it in favor of conduit connections.
    As I keep showing there's no need to eliminate the distance requirements. They make design more interesting, and despite the complaining of a few people, don't stop you building the ship you want (unless you want it all of powerful AND light AND small, in which case you have unreasonable requirements and I'm unsympathetic)

    If you eliminate distance and required conduits instead, people would build reactors and stabilisers up against each other and use either 0 or 1 conduit block.

    I'd like to see conduits required in addition to the stabiliser separation, to hurt spaghetti ships.
    [doublepost=1510019360,1510018691][/doublepost]
    People who are looking for maximum performance would eliminate that number with a better design. Because my ship is a square shape, I am stuck with an inferior shape. This wasn't an issue with the old system.
    Yes it was, it's just that the inferior shape in power 1.0 was a stick, while the superior shape was a cube.
    (From the point of view of the ship's power system)

    If my ship was shaped like a twizzler I wouldn't need to make that compromise.
    Design (in the real world) is literally just a string of compromises. The devs have done a great job making the same true in SM.

    The main point that I am trying to make is one that has been made a million times. We are working with a system that universally rewards one type of reactor design. You can get more power by putting down more stabilizers, but that's not my problem. I want an efficient powerful ship. Not one that feels like a giant compromise.
    And you can have an efficient powerful ship. The problem is you want a ship that has the same shape, size, power, and abilities as one you made under a different mechanic.
    Not reasonable.

    I fail to see how that is the case. Never mind decision space, what decision do I need to make?
    Where does the reactor go. How large is the reactor. What separation do you want from the stabilisers. How many stabiliser groups will there be. How large will each stabiliser group be. Where will the stabiliser groups be placed.

    In power 1.0 you chose size, shape, and location of the reactor (although shape and location were kind of an intertwined single decision, assuming you used a three axis reactor roughly the same dimensions you your ship, which was the case 99% of the time).
    It did also allow decisions about multiple reactors docked together which are now gone, and I do miss....

    I had no problem with the earlier builds. It seems like every time I download a new build the distance increases and my power output decreases. If that's the case then I think quite literally we are going in the wrong direction.
    You're exaggerating. It's increased once.
    [doublepost=1510020915][/doublepost]
    No matter what role my ship has, it will perform it better with a bigger more powerful reactor. We're going to end up with a bunch of ships that all have different roles but look the same.
    I think we all know perfectly well that we aren't going to end up with ships that look the same, no matter what mechanics were used.
    The best ship in every role will literally look the same as another ship in another role.
    That's only as true as it is for power 1.0.

    I still don't see what has to be well thought out either. The system has already decided for my where my reactor components should be.
    No it hasn't. I recently posted two possibilities for your ship, and if I was in front of SM I'd post a third: four stabiliser groups in the corners of your square hull around a central reactor.
    Players (like yourself) have other goals in mind beyond minimising the number of stabiliser blocks they use.

    My fixed power output makes it mathematically very easy to plan out weapons and other systems. The most I have to think about is what chambers I want to use, but that has nothing to do with placing the actual blocks. I don't want to be spending a majority of my theory crafting time specing things like an RPG. Totally different from what actually made this game interesting to me.
    You still don't have the "best" power system layout that you could for your predefined hull, so I don't think you're supporting your argument that you don't have to think about it.
     
    Joined
    Jun 17, 2015
    Messages
    300
    Reaction score
    90
    They make design more interesting, and despite the complaining of a few people, don't stop you building the ship you want
    I still fail to understand how this new system makes design more interesting. Previously I could design the exterior of a ship however I wanted and design systems however I want. I had to make trade-offs if I wanted certain things to function better or worse. Now I feel that the trades aren't balanced at all. This new system incredibly limits my choices, and will most likely lead to many ships that function and behave the same. The only thing that will make them different is what chambers they chose. It's reducing building to picking what you want in a menu.

    Design (in the real world) is literally just a string of compromises. The devs have done a great job making the same true in SM.
    Yes I know how design works its literally what I do. My point is that there is no compromise if you choose to build a reactor a certain way. I have state AGAIN and AGAIN that when I build the reactor like a TWIZZLER, HOT DOG, LONG STICK, I can make my ship do whatever I want. If I don't do that then I'm left with not enough power. It literally couldn't get more simple.

    es it was, it's just that the inferior shape in power 1.0 was a stick, while the superior shape was a cube.
    (From the point of view of the ship's power system)
    I'm talking about the shape of the hull not the power system.

    And you can have an efficient powerful ship. The problem is you want a ship that has the same shape, size, power, and abilities as one you made under a different mechanic.
    Not reasonable.
    I want it to function as an interceptor. If you can build a spy ship why can't I build something to stop it? I don't see how wanting a ship to fill a role is unreasonable. In the old system my ship had plenty of weaknesses, considering a lot of the system blocks were thrusters. It had blinding speed and enough firepower to kill whatever might try to run away. It did exactly what you would expect an interceptor to do. How is wanting something similar unreasonable?


    I think we all know perfectly well that we aren't going to end up with ships that look the same, no matter what mechanics were used.
    If it isn't a stick it will categorically be inferior. I don't think a performance oriented player would intentionally make his hull a shape that will give him less power output and more weight.The game still lets you build whatever you want but when everyone is kicking your ass with ships that all have the same general shape it'll definitely take the wind out of your sails.

    No it hasn't. I recently posted two possibilities for your ship, and if I was in front of SM I'd post a third: four reactor groups in the corners of your square hull.
    The first example is the same thing that I did but side to side instead of front to back. The second has 4x the amount of stabilizers on it. I don't see how either of those support an efficient well protected design. Four reactors wouldn't work because you can only have one reactor at a time.

    You still don't have the "best" power system layout that you could for your predefined hull, so I don't think you're supporting your argument that you don't have to think about it.
    I define best as most power for least amount of blocks/weight. If there were other criteria I would expand it but there isn't. If I sacrifice protection in layout I'm left with ship that can barely power itself to move.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Ithirahad

    StormWing0

    Leads the Storm
    Joined
    Jun 26, 2015
    Messages
    2,126
    Reaction score
    316
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    I normally build the power system first when working on a ship, in this case I'd build it last after getting my weapons in the right damage range. Keep in mind that weapon stats are also changing and 1mil damage in the current release is like 10mil in the dev build f I remember right. >.>