New Power DEV Thread

    Ithirahad

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    Of course you won't get the same performance, as you're designing for a different set of rules. Everybody else however has to design to those same rules, which means you'll get comparable performance relative to other ships.
    Yes, but those rules overall don't allow for as much flexibility as the old ones while not sacrificing much performance. Nobody was complaining that the new system isn't fair. :P

    The issue is, if you choose to make a ship that isn't long and skinny, it's both going to have a lower maximum power output relative to how big it is, and it's going to inevitably end up with a lower TWR because it needs more blocks per power to try and reach a decent level of power generation, where a long stick thing will only need a few stabilizers to make itself work optimally for its size.
     
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    Just bear in mind that starmade logic doesn't quite work like that.....(weight distribution doesn't matter in starmade, having a heavy end and a light end has the same effect as the same weight evenly distrubuted) I do agree regarding requiring conduits conections between reactor and stabilizors though.
    I thought turn rate was primary based on X, Y and Z dimension but later was changed to more complicated momentum of mass. So two heavy ends should turn slower than a shape with all of weight in the center and only 1 block hull bars for the same dimension :)
     
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    Trouble retrofitting a ship designed for different system mechanics while keeping the exact same abilities really doesn't seem like a strong argument to me.
    I am comparing the old system to the new one. I don't how else I would be able to do that without refitting previous designs. Building a new ship takes me a LONG time. I put a lot of planning and effort even just into my fighters. To test the new system effectively I need to have a point of comparison. I'm not testing new mechanics, it is essentially revisions to old ones.

    I don't mind not having the same capabilities. If I merely had to choose new abilities in the place of the old ones I wouldn't mind. Instead I am essentially gutting my ship as much as I can to get ONE aspect of my ship to work.

    How long is the longest axis on your interceptor?
    2000 e/s can power enough thrusters for almost 1600 thrust (that's a lot better than "literally can't move" on a 700 mass ship).
    Right so the 1750 thrust I need to maintain my 2.5 TWR on my INTERCEPTOR requires more power than what I produce. That means that this ship can't perform its basic function. I'm not going to turn my beautiful ship into a stick just so I can make it do ONE of the things that it previously could. This thing felt great to fly and performed its role exactly as I wanted it. It can no longer do it by a large margin.

    You can put it in the middle, but every decision you make (like putting your reactor in the middle) has both pros and cons associated with it, I.e. it's always a compromise between something you want and something you don't want, which in my personal opinion is excellent, because it makes design truly interesting.
    Every system is about trade offs. The old system had this too but the difference was I was making trade offs on what systems i could and couldn't put in my ship. If I my weapons were too big I wouldn't be able to support the TWR that I did. I had to forgo jump drives simply because they would have added too much weight. I had to balance regen and capacity so that I could use lock on missiles. I was still forced to make plenty of decisions but they were interesting decisions.

    To me any combat ship would want a well protected reactor. It is literally what decides of your ship lives or dies. The only option I have if I also want power generation is to put the two most vulnerable parts of my ship at the front and back. That's not a realistic trade off. It's forcing me to figure out how to minimize the impact of a decision I didn't want to make. There are no pros to putting my reactor in the middle of my ship. There is no reason to do it if it can't move as a result. Quite honestly I don't know who would want to make a ship like that. It makes zero sense from any logical standpoint.

    Also, don't forget that not having your one ship being able to jump, cloak, mine, shoot, and win the Indy 500 all at the same time is one of the stated goals of these changes.
    Did I say I want my ship to do all that? I'll repeat, "I could inhibit, scan, jam and shoot while moving and still have power flowing." Those are to me the bare minimum of how my interceptor should function. It's meant to fill a role, not perform a singular function. Its made to find an enemy cloaking ship and not let it escape. Its an anti spy ship. Now its anti-nothing.

    The issue is, if you choose to make a ship that isn't long and skinny, it's both going to have a lower maximum power output relative to how big it is, and it's going to inevitably end up with a lower TWR because it needs more blocks per power to try and reach a decent level of power generation, where a long stick thing will only need a few stabilizers to make itself work optimally for its size.
    I'm cramming it full of stabilizers just to get that 2000 power even to work. It is specifically a shape that many said would not be viable. Until I can make it viable I would say that the current system is a failure. It is a fundamental flaw that people have been pointing out since before release. It seems instead of fixing it, the goal is to convince us is it is just a better system. I can only take so much bullshit.
     

    StormWing0

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    Ya I'd take a modified version of our current power system using chambers over the mess currently on the dev build any day. Their new power system seems to be making every effort to break the rules for the goals it is meant for rather than achieve them. o_O
     
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    It is currently a conscious decision not to turn chambers into unique or decorative blocks. In this specific case, the module block will be relatively plain and denote type /activity only - just as the effect modules did. We will continue to try marry interesting visuals and system blocks in the future, but the chamber set specifically may remain utilitarian in nature.

    I'd sooner make more deco' blocks when possible to try fill some of the eye candy roles rather than systems having to be used because nothing else exists. I'm now painfully aware how much people decorate with systems as when they change or get removed it's pretty devastating. So if these specific systems are for now really grounded in the mechanics and not so much decorative purpose, i'm ok with that. Especially considering how susceptible to change they are.
    Why useful blocs can't be used as decoratives ? Just, why ?
    I like a lot using system blocs on interiors as they are really good to add animations here and there, to make it feel alive, as well as marrying the useful to the pretty. So why should i be forced to hide blocs under layers of decoratives/hull because someone decided for me they should look ugly and be hidden under something ?

    Chambers already change their look when we pick them, so why can't we have pretty and easy to recognize skins on top of it ?
     
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    My problem isn't even the textures. It's the fact that the blocks have to be grouped together. I just end up making them internal component. Given how expensive they are and the fact that they need to hooked up, theres no reason i would just randomly put the around my ship. It's not really a big deal but I've seen mostly negatives out of this system and struggle to find positives.
     
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    Comradecolonel. I have no idea how you design your ships. But you must do something odd and/or not right.

    My Fury fighter is better with the new power.
    And a lot of room to spare
    Here is the link to the "old" version Fury Xanth Mk2 Tigre
    And here you see the stats for the new version. 0.200.153



    As you can see i didn't changed a single piece of the design/hull. The ship performs like the old version when it comes to speed, acceleration, turn rate and fire power. PLUS now thanks to its 4 chambers it has added cappabilities. Ho and i still have some power to spare even while using everything at once so i could add more shield or more of other things...

    Start playing with the dev more and you'll discover new ways of making your refit. Hopefully, like me you'll be pleasantely surprise.
    "This was a message brought to you by Xanth Industries"
     
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    Hmm... .153

    Does anybody know what is that textureless Repulse Module? Seems there was no such thing in earlier builds
    Core Sniping is still there btw.
     
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    Hmm... .153

    Does anybody know what is that textureless Repulse Module? Seems there was no such thing in earlier builds
    Core Sniping is still there btw.
    The repulse module is not actually textureless, it's missing the item texture in the inventory, as a block item it uses several textures from other blocks (jump drive, scaffolding and some kind of a gun barrel texture). You can use it on a ship to float ships off a horizontal surface (best used in gravity), by diverting a part of your ship's thrust to them. It has been in the dev build from he start, and was even featured in the power 2.0 highlight stream.
     
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    Instead I am essentially gutting my ship as much as I can to get ONE aspect of my ship to work.

    Right so the 1750 thrust I need to maintain my 2.5 TWR on my INTERCEPTOR requires more power than what I produce.
    it's a long way from being"unable to move".

    You're already close to achieving your one goal, getting there probably only requires minimal modification.
    What are the bounding box dimensions for your interceptor?

    I'm guessing that probably (not certain of course) that a 700 mass ship will have dimensions that can give significantly more than 2000 e/s.



    Until I can make it viable I would say that the current system is a failure.
    I'll say again, I don't see the inability to (partially) recreate a specific old design as valid judgement of the new system.
     
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    I'll say again, I don't see the inability to (partially) recreate a specific old design as valid judgement of the new system.
    Can you please stop saying this to everyone, who seems to disagree with you. We all have our own opinions of the new system vs the old, and we are just trying to voice our concerns about trying to get our designs working with the new system. We are not trying to pass judgement for a system that is still in it's development phase, and not even ready for widespread use.
     
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    Can you please stop saying this to everyone, who seems to disagree with you. We all have our own opinions of the new system vs the old, and we are just trying to voice our concerns about trying to get our designs working with the new system. We are not trying to pass judgement for a system that is still in it's development phase, and not even ready for widespread use.
    You're actually doing exactly the same thing...
     
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    Can you please stop saying this to everyone, who seems to disagree with you. We all have our own opinions of the new system vs the old, and we are just trying to voice our concerns about trying to get our designs working with the new system.
    I'm just as entitled to voice my opinions as anyone else. Unlike you, I haven't asked anyone to not post their opinions.
    We are not trying to pass judgement for a system that is still in it's development phase, and not even ready for widespread use.
    Looking at some of the language used I'd very strongly disagree that judgement isn't being passed.
     
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    I'm guessing that probably (not certain of course) that a 700 mass ship will have dimensions that can give significantly more than 2000 e/s.
    520 mass, 45x21x19 m, 6500 e/s, TMR 2.3 (not 2.5, but would be possible). Rail landing gear; logic systems; bridge; airlock with 2xUSD; engine room; quarters for crew of three, if spartan; cargo space; 90something each C/C/O main gun and two PDTs. Power only ever gets low if doing anything else while charging the jump drive, but the jump drive is mostly there because every ship currently gets one for free anway.
    20171104-235844.987984371-starmade-devbuild_20171103_183441.png
     
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    StormWing0

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    520 mass, 45x21x19 m, 6500 e/s, TMR 2.3 (not 2.5, but would be possible). Rail landing gear; logic systems; bridge; airlock with 2xUSD; engine room; quarters for crew of three, if spartan; cargo space; 90something each C/C/O main gun and two PDTs. Power only ever gets low if doing anything else while charging the jump drive, but the jump drive is mostly there because every ship currently gets one for free anway.
    View attachment 45973
    You happen to have a cleaned out shell of that around? Maybe we can help? In this case the shell just needs only the things that aren't going to be there in the new system cleared out but keep all the other things that are in it and make a list of things removed due to not existing as blocks we need to chamber back in. :)

    I'm sure we all might be able to come up with something, or we'll all beat out heads against the same star you are. :-p
     
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    Comradecolonel. I have no idea how you design your ships. But you must do something odd and/or not right.
    I am doing something odd for this system. Its called putting the reactor where it will be safe from enemy fire, in the center. Because I put it in the middle of my ship, I only get half the distance for stabilizers. That means I either have to put a lot of them to reach my performance goals or I submit to having less power. I'm not just looking at the raw stats of my ship as a metric. It is also how well I'm able to make the layout. In a real combat situation the second my shields go down I'm one missile away from getting wrecked.

    I also took a look at your ship. It is good ship but it doesn't do what I'm trying to do. For all intents and purposes it is a vanilla ship that is packed with systems. I compared it to a 200ish mass fighter than I have and it is a pretty even fight. When I get the chance I will most likely refit that one as well to provide a point of comparison, since it is a long stick.

    Start playing with the dev more and you'll discover new ways of making your refit. Hopefully, like me you'll be pleasantely surprise.
    I took your advice and maximized my ship according to the rules. With my reactor jammed in the ass and stabilizers at the very nose, I make around 75% more power. My thrusters work and I can mount weapons that are of comparable power to the old version. As you can see though, if I take a missile to the nose it is game over and my ship will go full power failure. on top of that I feel like most of my ship is empty space that will probably be filled with shield blocks. Not much different than what we had.



    The ship performs like the old version when it comes to speed, acceleration, turn rate and fire power. PLUS now thanks to its 4 chambers it has added cappabilities.
    I'd also like to note that due to the chamber limits I have LESS capabilities. I had to settle for stealth, top speed, and recon usage permanent. I feel like I would have to spec totally into recon to even fulfill the role I previously did. This is not necessarily a bad thing but I don't feel like I had any gains in this category. Then again is hard to pick since I don't know how people are going to spec out their spy ships.

    520 mass, 45x21x19 m, 6500 e/s, TMR 2.3 (not 2.5, but would be possible). Rail landing gear; logic systems; bridge; airlock with 2xUSD; engine room; quarters for crew of three, if spartan; cargo space; 90something each C/C/O main gun and two PDTs. Power only ever gets low if doing anything else while charging the jump drive, but the jump drive is mostly there because every ship currently gets one for free anway.
    View attachment 45973
    Yes but looking at the specs you have a LOAD of stabilizers. I have 38 reactor blocks and 51 stabilizers. You also have the reactor at the very ass end of your ship. I'm sure that the stabilizers are amassed in the front. I'm not just interested in raw numbers. I also care about the layout.

    The way I have to layout my systems is just not interesting now. I found the old system tedious but I still enjoyed some of the decisions that I had to make. The only decision enjoy now is figuring out what chambers to pick. Doing these refits take like 5 minutes tops. Partly because of the new build tools but also because it is too straightforward. There's nothing to think about just plop a reactor on one side and stabilizers on the other.
     

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    You happen to have a cleaned out shell of that around? Maybe we can help? In this case the shell just needs only the things that aren't going to be there in the new system cleared out but keep all the other things that are in it and make a list of things removed due to not existing as blocks we need to chamber back in. :)

    I'm sure we all might be able to come up with something, or we'll all beat out heads against the same star you are. :-p
    I'm not the one beating my head against a star, I was trying to prove the point Jojomo was trying to make to Comradecolonel that you can have more than 2k e/s in a shell below 700 tons that is not a stick.
    I am perfectly happy with how the ship is turning out.


    Yes but looking at the specs you have a LOAD of stabilizers. I have 38 reactor blocks and 51 stabilizers. You also have the reactor at the very ass end of your ship. I'm sure that the stabilizers are amassed in the front. I'm not just interested in raw numbers. I also care about the layout.

    The way I have to layout my systems is just not interesting now. I found the old system tedious but I still enjoyed some of the decisions that I had to make. The only decision enjoy now is figuring out what chambers to pick. Doing these refits take like 5 minutes tops. Partly because of the new build tools but also because it is too straightforward. There's nothing to think about just plop a reactor on one side and stabilizers on the other.
    Yes, the stabilizers are in the front, the reactor is in the rear, I still have a block or two of unused space to spare at either end if I wanted to put them even further apart, and I could also probably go with an even smaller reactor which would mean less stabilizers and less chamber blocks, which would mean less mass, which would mean more TMR, which might lead to less thrusters needed and in turn less power, which... you get the drift. This ship is something I threw together in the first 0.200 build and have since been adjusting to the moving target that is the dev builds. I am immensely enjoying it, I feel like I get to experience the progress the devs are making first hand, and I don't find it frustrating in the least that I have to constantly adjust block ratios, and I feel there's more to designing and fine tuning systems now than was before.
    I do care about layout too, but obviously I have chosen a different layout than you would have, which I think is perfectly fine. Again, I was not trying to present the perfect ship, but to prove that specific numbers were achievable, and in a hopefully at least somewhat aesthetically pleasing shell on top of it.
     
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    You happen to have a cleaned out shell of that around? Maybe we can help? In this case the shell just needs only the things that aren't going to be there in the new system cleared out but keep all the other things that are in it and make a list of things removed due to not existing as blocks we need to chamber back in. :)

    I'm sure we all might be able to come up with something, or we'll all beat out heads against the same star you are. :-p
    Did you mean that for Comradecolonel?
    [doublepost=1509918014,1509917651][/doublepost]
    Yes but looking at the specs you have a LOAD of stabilizers. I have 38 reactor blocks and 51 stabilizers. You also have the reactor at the very ass end of your ship. I'm sure that the stabilizers are amassed in the front. I'm not just interested in raw numbers. I also care about the layout.
    Again not possible to say for sure unless you share your design, or at least the bounding block dimensions, but that sounds very much like you need more stabilisers.

    Also, you might try removing a few reactor blocks and seeing if power output increases. This will depend on your current average stabilisation percentage and your current reactor efficiency.

    You should always have reactor efficiency at 100%, and usually not have stabilisation at 100%.EDIT: I think I've used incorrect terminology. I mean a reactor should always be made to output its maximum possible output (e.g. a 32 block reactor should always be made to output 3200 e/s, never less) but stabilisers should almost never be placed at the full (green) distance that gives maximum stabilisation per block - a closer distance will almost always mean total ship mass is less, even though stabiliser mass will be greater.

    Not implying you've forgotten but in case you have, stabilisers don't need to be grouped together.
     
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    Again not possible to say for sure unless you share your design, or at least the bounding block dimensions, but that sounds very much like you need more stabilisers.
    I feel like you don't even read the words that I write. I'll put it simply. I have the choice between doing two things. One thing gives me almost double power for my ship. The other thing leaves my ship incredibly power deficient.Which one should I choose?

    I have 100% stabilization. If I wanted to I could put a ton of stabilizers near my reactor when it is in the middle, but that means I would have to carry a lot of extra weight. This is something I am trying to avoid in a ship that goes very fast. It's pretty obvious that if I make a stick ship it will be a better interceptor all-around. It'll have more power which means more capability.

    The only argument so far I've heard is, " My ship has even or better stats so you must be doing something wrong." Nobody has obviously made a ship like mine. On top of that it is just dancing around my main point. This new system penalizes all but 1D maximized designs. It takes no time at all now to make a capable ship.

    I feel there's more to designing and fine tuning systems now than was before.
    I'd have to disagree. There is no fine-tuning that wasn't in the old system. The fine-tuning of the old power system is completely gone.

    I do care about layout too, but obviously I have chosen a different layout than you would have, which I think is perfectly fine.
    So what you're telling me is you think putting the two most vulnerable parts of your ship in the two easiest to hit spots is a good layout?