Read by Schine Mobile Shipyards (shipyards on ships)

[kiraen]

Who said the drives were small? It's a massive shipyard factory. Each jump drive has 5000 modules. If things are really bad, I can switch the linkage around and have a single 50000 module drive. With 20 docked reactors, my power gen is through the roof.

It was also an example.

The point is, that any 'benefit' you have from a station, is negated by just building bigger. The only reason to have a station are the facilities. Factories, shops, shipyards.

Invulnerability is irrelevant. I just jump away and you can't hurt me.
Claiming space is irrelevant, just make a massive defense drone/turret in each sector.
Mining bonus, irrelevant. If asteroids respawn, you'll get the resources eventually, if they don't just take another system. See also, faction points.
Faction points, irrelevant. I can throw up a faction claiming homebase with a million credits and a single faction block. It doesn't even have to be anything other then the single invulnerable faction block floating in the middle of no where.

Keep in mind, I would love to have a reasonable ship based yard, with the appropriate factories. Repairing fighters, producing throw away drones and mines. But ships should be limited, stations shouldn't. It's a balance issue.

 

[refirendum]

I believe any station-specific blocks can be adapted to ships by giving them high mass. station blocks weigh X times more than advanced armor hull so that the disadvantages of weight are irrelevant on a station, but can significantly cripple a ship's combat viability if the ship doens't have the thrust and power to move and use the system? to me this sounds fine as the difference and incentive.

as for giving stations features that make sense on a station and not on ships, stations should have system links with other stations like they have warpgates allowing all the stations to be somewhat remotely controllable from homebases. checking navigation from a station could bring up nav tabs that link to every station that the station you are currently in is master to. stations could each have AI-controlled and player-controlled business and residential district bounding blocks available to them, where the player outlines regions where NPCs are allowed to spawn, trade, build procedurally generated shops and homes. And where the player outlines where within the player-made areas NPC's are allowed to walk through and settle.

ALL of these features could have mass that is much beyond what most players would be willing to use on smaller ships, as the mass limits mobility heavily (where, for a station, it's a non-issue and the station based factories and shipyards can be as big as you want without negatively impacting the station's performance)

stations could get a power generation bonus and shield bonus, making systems like the current station-only blocks much easier to use on stations than on ships.

 

[spunkiethefirst]

I believe any station-specific blocks can be adapted to ships by giving them high mass. station blocks weigh X times more than advanced armor hull so that the disadvantages of weight are irrelevant on a station, but can significantly cripple a ship's combat viability if the ship doens't have the thrust and power to move and use the system? to me this sounds fine as the difference and incentive.

as for giving stations features that make sense on a station and not on ships, stations should have system links with other stations like they have warpgates allowing all the stations to be somewhat remotely controllable from homebases. checking navigation from a station could bring up nav tabs that link to every station that the station you are currently in is master to. stations could each have AI-controlled and player-controlled business and residential district bounding blocks available to them, where the player outlines regions where NPCs are allowed to spawn, trade, build procedurally generated shops and homes. And where the player outlines where within the player-made areas NPC's are allowed to walk through and settle.

ALL of these features could have mass that is much beyond what most players would be willing to use on smaller ships, as the mass limits mobility heavily (where, for a station, it's a non-issue and the station based factories and shipyards can be as big as you want without negatively impacting the station's performance)

stations could get a power generation bonus and shield bonus, making systems like the current station-only blocks much easier to use on stations than on ships.

Lol then your titan weighs so much it becomes stationary. I like it.

Perhaps the argument should instead be mobile stations.
-turn off the station anchor and then you can tow it around
-when the anchor is off the system ownership and invulnerability are disabled
- then you tow it to next location flip on the anchor and reestablish invulnerability and system ownership
-stations can not anchor if another station exists and is anchored in the sector

 

[lilheartless]

Who said the drives were small? It's a massive shipyard factory. Each jump drive has 5000 modules. If things are really bad, I can switch the linkage around and have a single 50000 module drive. With 20 docked reactors, my power gen is through the roof.

It was also an example.

The point is, that any 'benefit' you have from a station, is negated by just building bigger. The only reason to have a station are the facilities. Factories, shops, shipyards.

Invulnerability is irrelevant. I just jump away and you can't hurt me.
Claiming space is irrelevant, just make a massive defense drone/turret in each sector.
Mining bonus, irrelevant. If asteroids respawn, you'll get the resources eventually, if they don't just take another system. See also, faction points.
Faction points, irrelevant. I can throw up a faction claiming homebase with a million credits and a single faction block. It doesn't even have to be anything other then the single invulnerable faction block floating in the middle of no where.

Keep in mind, I would love to have a reasonable ship based yard, with the appropriate factories. Repairing fighters, producing throw away drones and mines. But ships should be limited, stations shouldn't. It's a balance issue.

Building bigger applies to everything in my post on page 7 I covered some of the reasons that this isn't a viable thing to happen right now, i'll briefly sum up what i said

stations have no real advantage besides the blocks that can only go on them
they need, added stat bonuses aka higher power gen weapons that have extra range because they are immobile possibly higher damage / accuracy to compensate for the fact that stations in this game aren't built like real stations.

shipyards need a different way to consume power
my suggestion was that they have an in shipyard computer config that allowed you to decide how many blocks they placed at a time with each block taking up another x energy

cargo and mass changes will come into play

and to speak on ur jump drive suggestion first off advanced build mode is supposedly going to get removed from the cores once shipyards get ironed out so no changing jump links mid combat

and finally if you come across a ship of equal size and you have a for example 100 x 100 x 100 shipyard in your ship and they don't you they literally only have to dedicate 1/20 of that free space that they have from not having a shipyard to jump inhibitors and your 50k jump drives won't do anything blah blah you put on more jump drives blah blah they put on more jump inhibitors the fact is the shipyard would be a huge drawback on a same size ship. they could have 500k more cannons than you and turn their jump inhibitor on and your ship that can make tons of little drones would die before you got to launch a couple sets.

Size doesn't work 1 way and a mobile shipyard while versatile would not last long in a stand up fight.

 

[refirendum]

maybe you can abolish the separation between ship/stations altogether. and use a station anchor instead. it'll work like rebooting.

a ship that is above a certain mass is able to "reboot as station" as long as there is no station already present in the sector. when it reboots as a station, it becomes immobile and then gains the generation bonuses, shield bonuses, HB protection eligibility, and production efficiency bonuses at the cost of a long reboot and mobility. (so you can't station-anchor in the middle of a fight without incurring heavy losses on yourself).

all stations can then "reboot as a ship" as now stations will not be spawned as stations, but instead every ship and station will start life as a ship. if you are foolish enough to remove the thrusters on your station, then if you reboot as a ship, you will be unable to move. the reboot time will be about the same time to reboot as a station, and then you can move the ship. in order for the ship to have viable mobility, your station-specialty blocks will have to make up a very small percentage of your volume, lest you have not enough thrust to move the darn thing. if not, then you have a very very slow moving migrant ship that's basically a sitting duck. when converting to ship, the entity loses its generation bonuses, shield bonuses, production facility bonuses, and HB protection eligibility.

during reboot, all bonuses are negated

 

[Blaza612]

Lol then your titan weighs so much it becomes stationary. I like it.

Perhaps the argument should instead be mobile stations.
-turn off the station anchor and then you can tow it around
-when the anchor is off the system ownership and invulnerability are disabled
- then you tow it to next location flip on the anchor and reestablish invulnerability and system ownership
-stations can not anchor if another station exists and is anchored in the sector

How many times do I have to say no to anchoring? Reasons have been explained multiple times before if you want to know why.

maybe you can abolish the separation between ship/stations altogether. and use a station anchor instead. it'll work like rebooting.

a ship that is above a certain mass is able to "reboot as station" as long as there is no station already present in the sector. when it reboots as a station, it becomes immobile and then gains the generation bonuses, shield bonuses, HB protection eligibility, and production efficiency bonuses at the cost of a long reboot and mobility. (so you can't station-anchor in the middle of a fight without incurring heavy losses on yourself).

all stations can then "reboot as a ship" as now stations will not be spawned as stations, but instead every ship and station will start life as a ship. if you are foolish enough to remove the thrusters on your station, then if you reboot as a ship, you will be unable to move. the reboot time will be about the same time to reboot as a station, and then you can move the ship. in order for the ship to have viable mobility, your station-specialty blocks will have to make up a very small percentage of your volume, lest you have not enough thrust to move the darn thing. if not, then you have a very very slow moving migrant ship that's basically a sitting duck. when converting to ship, the entity loses its generation bonuses, shield bonuses, production facility bonuses, and HB protection eligibility.

during reboot, all bonuses are negated

We've been over this, read above. Then look at previous arguments, and see that this has been suggested before. And so far, we've said NO.

 

[refirendum]

You've said no. not everyone's said no. I obviously haven't said no.

 

[Blaza612]

You've said no. not everyone's said no. I obviously haven't said no.

The majority of those who wish to be Nomads do not want this. We want to be able to not use a station, and turning our ships into partial stations is just as bad. I've provided different ways how we can debuff capital ships that they don't become as nerfed as you desire, but still provide an incentive to stations. If you need me to quote them, then I shall. However, for shipyards, I feel a size limit is needed, which is based on the size of your own ship. So the size of the shipyard ends up being a % of the ship mass, rather than a universally fixed number.

 

[refirendum]

What i'm saying is that there need not be a limit to the size of your station-type systems on a ship, but the mass penalty and less system-space penalty for them will do the nerfing anyways. the anchoring is ONLY if you desire it to be a station. whether it's a station or not does not turn on or off shipyard or warpgates or factories, you always can use them. stations just get a bonus enhancement to basic system neccesities over ships to indirectly affect the ability of a ship or station to use said features.

i think you really misinterpreted what i had written. i said bonuses. not capabilities, in my original post.

 

[Blaza612]

What i'm saying is that there need not be a limit to the size of your station-type systems on a ship, but the mass penalty and less system-space penalty for them will do the nerfing anyways. the anchoring is ONLY if you desire it to be a station. whether it's a station or not does not turn on or off shipyard or warpgates or factories, you always can use them. stations just get a bonus enhancement to basic system neccesities over ships to indirectly affect the ability of a ship or station to use said features.

i think you really misinterpreted what i had written.

Ah, I see, I did misinterpret what you said, apologies for that. :P

I thought you were talking about having to anchor be mandatory in order to use the station systems, rather than make it an option if they want to have the buffs of using a stations. Sorry about that. :P

 

[Drakkart]

What i'm saying is that there need not be a limit to the size of your station-type systems on a ship, but the mass penalty and less system-space penalty for them will do the nerfing anyways. the anchoring is ONLY if you desire it to be a station. whether it's a station or not does not turn on or off shipyard or warpgates or factories, you always can use them. stations just get a bonus enhancement to basic system neccesities over ships to indirectly affect the ability of a ship or station to use said features.

i think you really misinterpreted what i had written. i said bonuses. not capabilities, in my original post.

If you build a big shipyard into a ship the "into" part already makes the ship bigger. should they become heavier? no why? should they be anchored? no why?

Give players more options! and the game will flourish. Limit only what can be used as refugee/homebase so homebases have to be stationary to not fly something invunerable over to the enemy.

Everything else including some more mass BS is totally unnecessary, let people build carriers, let people play together to support such a big ship with resources it needs to keep the shipyard working. let them fly to asteroid belts hop in their miners, mine then head back to the carrier dock, unload start the factories build stuff in the shipyard and then jump away. Why not?! or how would balance suffer? like seriously why should it matter if stuff gets shipyarded on a station and comes over killing your stuff or it was produced on a big ship and does the same thing.

The gains for the game in general would be big, group play, realism, immersion, while not affecting the game balance at all. - oh wait torpedos ... - details! if brought over and fired or escorted through space being fired from a station does not affect their deadlyness.

 

[RoAnnon]

I'm a fan of options, the more the better. I would like to see shipyards on ships, but I do think they need to be restricted. The only restriction that makes sense to me is limiting the shipyard's dimensions to a % of the ship's dimensions, regardless of how big the shipyard modules in the ship are laid out. Say a mobile shipyard can only produce a ship anywhere from 10% to 25% of the producing ship's dimensions, or the limits of the installed shipyard, whichever is smaller. This allows the owner to build a bigger ship in a bigger ship, but still limits the ship to building something that can easily dock within it. I'd say leave the power consumption levels and all else the same. If someone wants to build a capital ship, they need to build it by hand or in a station yard, then they can use that ship to build smaller ships.

 

[Drakkart]

why limit the size? how about a floating shipyard ship which pretty much is not able to do much besides building ships. it prolly won't have much else aboard...
a carrier has a different role it also has to have hangars and stuff for maintenance the fleet it carries in such a ship the shipyard automatically will be smaller forit would only have to reproduce it's fighters, corvets and frigates.
but a shipyard if big enough should be possible to produce anything that it can hold within it's shipyard dimensions.

 

[refirendum]

There is extra mass associated with heavy machinery used to build ships. The mass increase is to simulate that. Otherwise ships without those parts would be built from lighter materials to aid acceleration. There could be a warp-distance bonus on ships with station blocks to offset the slowness to charge the warpdrives and maintain mobility even if it barely has engines to move at all. Bonus of up to 2x normal warp distance at 40% station block mass to normal ship mass as the max bonus and scaling down from there. One sector for each 5% until it reaches max.

 

[RoAnnon]

... how about a floating shipyard ship which pretty much is not able to do much besides building ships. it prolly won't have much else aboard...

At which point it is nothing but a station... back to square 1
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why limit the size? how about a floating shipyard ship which pretty much is not able to do much besides building ships. it prolly won't have much else aboard...
a carrier has a different role it also has to have hangars and stuff for maintenance the fleet it carries in such a ship the shipyard automatically will be smaller forit would only have to reproduce it's fighters, corvets and frigates.
but a shipyard if big enough should be possible to produce anything that it can hold within it's shipyard dimensions.

But to actually answer your question, it's because the shipyard requires power and a workforce, and a ship requires crew. Those people need a place on the ship to reside. A station and a ship must be distinguishable at some level, a ship entirely taken up by a structure for building other ships wouldn't be viable as I see it.

 

[Drakkart]

At which point it is nothing but a station... back to square 1
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But to actually answer your question, it's because the shipyard requires power and a workforce, and a ship requires crew. Those people need a place on the ship to reside. A station and a ship must be distinguishable at some level, a ship entirely taken up by a structure for building other ships wouldn't be viable as I see it.

with floating i tried to indicate slow movement. because of being heavy because being humongeous.

regarding the second quote so following your logic how did the carriers in HW exist? why should a ship not be dedicated to building ships? why should a carrier not be able to carry reproduce while being a traveling home for loads of people? battlestar galactica hello...
you would not like it, reason or argument given - none

 

[FatCobra]

I'm not sure I have a problem with shipyards on ships. Although I would much rather be able to process raw materials on a mining ship if I had to make a choice. I do think however that both shipyard parts and factory parts should have a very high mass and little to no hit points. These systems should be "heavy" enough to do the work they are intended for, but be fragile.

I think this would lend to the nomadic game style some people want to play.

 

[RoAnnon]

with floating i tried to indicate slow movement. because of being heavy because being humongeous.

regarding the second quote so following your logic how did the carriers in HW exist? why should a ship not be dedicated to building ships? why should a carrier not be able to carry reproduce while being a traveling home for loads of people? battlestar galactica hello...
you would not like it, reason or argument given - none

Never really played HW, so really can't answer to that, but you can't tell me seriously that the Galactica was built by another Battlestar.
[DOUBLEPOST=1444245238,1444245050][/DOUBLEPOST]It just makes no sense to me to have a shipyard that's ON a ship be able to build a ship that's the same size as the ship it's on. The shipyard would by definition need to be smaller and only able to build smaller ships.

 

[Drakkart]

Never really played HW, so really can't answer to that, but you can't tell me seriously that the Galactica was built by another Battlestar.

no clue where that ship came from regarding it's size maybe a shipyard of sorts. Probably nothing stationary either for there are no hooks in space to anchor a structure this is an artificial thing for starmade for it is easier for the devs to just make the database remember a kartesian coordinate for the first station block than loads of vectors and such... But the galactica is able to produce vipers send out harvester ships and recycles debris from battles. itself it is so heavy that it requires a fleet of fighters to defend itself. for it can't turn it can't evade... it has other stuff to do like hosting a big crew keep the vipers maintained do own repairs...

 

[RoAnnon]

no clue where that ship came from regarding it's size maybe a shipyard of sorts. Probably nothing stationary either for there are no hooks in space to anchor a structure this is an artificial thing for starmade for it is easier for the devs to just make the database remember a kartesian coordinate for the first station block than loads of vectors and such... But the galactica is able to produce vipers send out harvester ships and recycles debris from battles.

Yes, the Galactica can produce the smaller ships, but nothing even half as big as itself. And I did say earlier that the original large ship would either need to be built by a shipyard somewhere or "by hand" just tacking stuff onto a smaller ship as you go. That's totally doable. Probably where the first HW carrier came from, the nomads just adding stuff to their one ship until it was big enough to be a mothership. But again, never played it, much to the chagrin of my fellow faction mates AND some of my EVE corpmates...