Read by Schine Mobile Shipyards (shipyards on ships)

[Blaza612]

In the current state of the game, if shipyards were simply enabled on ships and stations alike, all mobile shipyards have the advantage of mobility (duh), but no absolute disadvantage compared to stations; only 1 station per faction can be invulnerable, if any, so the possibility of being captured/destroyed is not solely applicable to ships (and game balance shouldn't be based around the home base mechanic anyways, since I believe it is planned to eventually be changed). Any difficulties in supplying the shipyard with power or materials can be solved by upscaling the ship. The same applies to any statistical debuffs given to mobile shipyards, such as slower construction rate or increased material cost. Maximum shipyard sizes (if added) for mobile would have to be based on the size of the ship they are attached to (this is starmade after all).

Therefore, it seems to me that an absolute benefit that applies to all stationary shipyards (or an absolute negative to all mobile ones) is required. What that would be, I'm not sure. Not being able to produce while currently moving is not a good idea, since stations don't move anyways, making it not a disadvantage for mobile relative to stationary; the same goes for not allowing warp drives, although both of these are possible balance points, but should not be the main disadvantage. The idea here is that stationary shipyards should always be better in some way than mobile ones which aren't utilizing their mobility (not necessarily in speed/size though, since both varieties should be able to be built however).

I would suggest reading some of my other replies, as I've been throwing some ideas around to provide an incentive to use stations.

 

[max stripe]

In the current state of the game, if shipyards were simply enabled on ships and stations alike, all mobile shipyards have the advantage of mobility (duh), but no absolute disadvantage compared to stations; only 1 station per faction can be invulnerable, if any, so the possibility of being captured/destroyed is not solely applicable to ships (and game balance shouldn't be based around the home base mechanic anyways, since I believe it is planned to eventually be changed). Any difficulties in supplying the shipyard with power or materials can be solved by upscaling the ship. The same applies to any statistical debuffs given to mobile shipyards, such as slower construction rate or increased material cost. Maximum shipyard sizes (if added) for mobile would have to be based on the size of the ship they are attached to (this is starmade after all).

Therefore, it seems to me that an absolute benefit that applies to all stationary shipyards (or an absolute negative to all mobile ones) is required. What that would be, I'm not sure. Not being able to produce while currently moving is not a good idea, since stations don't move anyways, making it not a disadvantage for mobile relative to stationary; the same goes for not allowing warp drives, although both of these are possible balance points, but should not be the main disadvantage. The idea here is that stationary shipyards should always be better in some way than mobile ones which aren't utilizing their mobility (not necessarily in speed/size though, since both varieties should be able to be built however).

well there could be a 10% speed increase for station based shipyards

 

[kiraen]

Frankly, I think bumping the mass of shipyards and factories is something that should be done regardless. And shipyard construction speed needs to be nerfed significantly. And yes, increasing the size of the ship will generally negate most benefits of the station. Except size, of course. And the bigger it is, the slower it is. And therefore a bigger target. Of course, it can just jump out and be safe. Then again, a Station can be invulnerable.

How about we nerf the factories. Or more specifically, we have Capital Factories (CF) and Station Factories (SF). But CF would be incapable of producing certain items, like shipyard blocks and factory blocks. Maybe add shops and faction blocks to that. I'm sure we can make a decent list here. But if you want to increase your factory or shipyard production, you need to find or build a Station.

Maybe even make shipyard versions (CS / SS), but I'm not sure how you would limit a shipyard on a ship. I'm not sure what blocks I would leave out without pissing everyone off and power or speed nerfs seem pretty pointless considering size issues. Tho, definitely one per ship. Stations shouldn't have that limit.

Also, CS and CF would require you to 'power down' before they can re/moved or added to. Kind of like a reboot, but more so. It doesn't have to be long to take effect, but it remains in effect until you 'power up' and your energy reserved are purged in the process. No shields, of course. So making changes to your Capital facilities isn't something you would do lightly. A problem Stations don't have because of their inherent stability.

All this means you can't just pick up your CF and plop it on a planet to turn it into an SF and crank out some more facilities. Even if you keep a spare SF in your pocket, your still going to be vulnerable during the actual refit.

While shops should require cargo space, I don't think those should be limited beyond that on ships. Traveling salesmen and merchants are a thing. The shop is basically just a trade interface. You could probably just remove the block from the game entirely and move the interface into a menu somewhere. Maybe.

Let's not forget that ships don't produce faction points. I think I read somewhere that Capitals will actually cost faction points. I don't remember if this was a reoccurring charge or not. If it's not, maybe it should be.

On a slightly different topic, I think shipyards on ships would be a good solution to the minelayer question. But really, does it have to be a Capital? The mine itself isn't even a full 3^3. Six warheads and a core, dropped out the back. That's a really small shipyard.


--- brain dump complete ---

or not
PS: Anyway, the problem is to encourage station building. Not to nerf mobile shipyards.

 

[Blaza612]

Frankly, I think bumping the mass of shipyards and factories is something that should be done regardless. And shipyard construction speed needs to be nerfed significantly. And yes, increasing the size of the ship will generally negate most benefits of the station. Except size, of course. And the bigger it is, the slower it is. And therefore a bigger target. Of course, it can just jump out and be safe. Then again, a Station can be invulnerable.

How about we nerf the factories. Or more specifically, we have Capital Factories (CF) and Station Factories (SF). But CF would be incapable of producing certain items, like shipyard blocks and factory blocks. Maybe add shops and faction blocks to that. I'm sure we can make a decent list here. But if you want to increase your factory or shipyard production, you need to find or build a Station.

Maybe even make shipyard versions (CS / SS), but I'm not sure how you would limit a shipyard on a ship. I'm not sure what blocks I would leave out without pissing everyone off and power or speed nerfs seem pretty pointless considering size issues. Tho, definitely one per ship. Stations shouldn't have that limit.

Also, CS and CF would require you to 'power down' before they can re/moved or added to. Kind of like a reboot, but more so. It doesn't have to be long to take effect, but it remains in effect until you 'power up' and your energy reserved are purged in the process. No shields, of course. So making changes to your Capital facilities isn't something you would do lightly. A problem Stations don't have because of their inherent stability.

All this means you can't just pick up your CF and plop it on a planet to turn it into an SF and crank out some more facilities. Even if you keep a spare SF in your pocket, your still going to be vulnerable during the actual refit.

While shops should require cargo space, I don't think those should be limited beyond that on ships. Traveling salesmen and merchants are a thing. The shop is basically just a trade interface. You could probably just remove the block from the game entirely and move the interface into a menu somewhere. Maybe.

Let's not forget that ships don't produce faction points. I think I read somewhere that Capitals will actually cost faction points. I don't remember if this was a reoccurring charge or not. If it's not, maybe it should be.

On a slightly different topic, I think shipyards on ships would be a good solution to the minelayer question. But really, does it have to be a Capital? The mine itself isn't even a full 3^3. Six warheads and a core, dropped out the back.


--- brain dump complete ---

Seriously, we've gone so far backwards! We've already covered these issues! Get this message through your head:

I DON'T DON'T TO HAVE TO BUILD A FUCKING STATION TO GET/USE A CAPITAL SHIP!

And that's the thought process of most people who wish to be Nomads. Stations shouldn't be a necessity, it should be an option, and I'm not quoting myself as to how we can still provide stations with an incentive. And making a capital ship have to stop for a certain amount of time to do things is just as bad as forcing us to use stations. Don't nerf capital ships in this way, read through what I've come up with, and create a more appropriate compromise that doesn't result in capital ships become half station or forcing us in having to use stations. I'm getting extremely frustrated with how many times I have to repeat this. :/

 

[kiraen]

1. Shine has decreed there will be stations and they will be encouraged. Read a few official type posts.
2. I, personally, would prefer the option to play as a nomad.
3. You don't need a station. A planet with a temporary base will do nicely.
4. Chill pill time.

 

[Blaza612]

1. Shine has decreed there will be stations and they will be encouraged. Read a few official type posts.
2. I, personally, would prefer the option to play as a nomad.
3. You don't need a station. A planet with a temporary base will do nicely.
4. Chill pill time.

1. The options I've presented still encourage stations, just not so severely.
2. And I would prefer the option to use stations.
3. That's just as bad, I want to be born on the ship, live on the ship, and die on the ship.
4. You have no idea how frustrating this argument is.

 

[kiraen]

1. You haven't suggested anything that can't be countered with 'Just make a bigger ship'.
2. This really should all be a config option.
3. Even nomads settle for the winter.

 

[Blaza612]

1. You haven't suggested anything that can't be countered with 'Just make a bigger ship'.
2. This really should all be a config option.
3. Even nomads settle for the winter.

1. That's because we don't want to completely put off using only capital ships. What I proposed does provide a disadvantage to capital ships, but doesn't make it that stations are so obviously superior. We want them to be relatively equal, not have stations far superior than capital ships. What you've done is suggest making capital ships massively nerfed to make stations seem so obviously better. I've chosen to provide unique disadvantages that allow people who want to be nomads to be nomads without any significant problems.
2. I agree.
3. But winter is only something that exists planet-side. We're space nomads, I don't want any [gameplay] reason to leave my ship.

 

[kiraen]

You have not suggested any disadvantages to capital ships. You have only suggested reasons to make capital ships even bigger. Stations are superior (so sayeth the cat god or we wouldn't be having this argument), but stations can't move and will eventually become obsolete as they can't adjust to the shift in resources. Even nomads need to breath and replenish their oxygen supplies. No wonder you find this frustrating. Instead or a chill pill, you need to try a reality check.

Moving on.

 

[Blaza612]

You have not suggested any disadvantages to capital ships. You have only suggested reasons to make capital ships even bigger. Stations are superior (so sayeth the cat god or we wouldn't be having this argument), but stations can't move and will eventually become obsolete as they can't adjust to the shift in resources. Even nomads need to breath and replenish their oxygen supplies. No wonder you find this frustrating. Instead or a chill pill, you need to try a reality check.

Moving on.

You still fail to realize, debuffing capital ships in such a way is essentially saying "Fuck you, stations are always going to be superior, it doesn't matter what you want or that it's a sandbox game, capital ships are going to be nerfed to a point where the incentive is gone making capital ships obsolete."

What you're proposing is saying that, the incentive to use capital ships will be gone. Those who want to be nomads can't, stations will always have a reason to be used, claiming systems, not having to dedicate power to more systems (thrust, weapons, shields) and are invulnerable, not only that but there will always be people who wish to have a home, and thus the option to use stations will be there. Making capital ships half stations is as bad as forcing nomads to use stations. There was already an incentive to use stations, I've added more of an incentive. Capital ships should not be disadvantaged so severely, so as to allow the option of either capital ships or stations to be an option.

 

[killerdude8]

Building a bigger ship SHOULD be how you get around something, Its a little thing called progression, leveling up, moving forward, etc..

Allow me to illustrate: You just booted up Starmade for the first time, Get familiar with the controls and build a small fighter, This little fight has no problem dispatching small groups of pirates and traders alike. Suddenly one day, you stumble upon a Pirate Station and immediately get destroyed, You think "Surely that must've been a fluke", Rebuild your fighter and try again only to meet the same fate.
What do you do?
Build a bigger ship, one capable of housing more powerful reactors, more powerful shields, more powerful weapons, so you can defeat that station you came across.

Now, lets apply that to this situation, You have a mobile shipyard, currently it can only build Destroyer class ships. You want to start producing Cruiser class ships to send against your foes, Yet your shipyard simply isn't good enough.
So you build a bigger shipyard, one capable of producing a ship of that size, along with powering it efficiently and be able to carry and provide the resources for such a task.

Imposing size limits, block restrictions and immobility during production are just ridiculous suggestions, But, This is the whole point of the discussion, to find good and bad ideas.


I agree with Blasa, I don't want to HAVE to have a station to get anywhere, I don't like building stations, They're a waste of time and resources for me, because I just don't stay in one spot. If I do build a station, I'm dismantling it not very long after building it moving on to another sector, So instead of actually building and dismantling stations all the time, I just want everything on 1 ship, 1 big mothership.
Stations AND Capital ships should be optional, The game should allow you to go either way without requiring the other one.

 

[TomW1605]

one possibility (forgive me if it has bean suggested) is having a different computer for shipyards on ships. this computer would have reduced efficiency, a limit on the number of blocks that could be connected and an increased power reqiament. a similar system could be used for factories on ships.

 

[Blaza612]

one possibility (forgive me if it has bean suggested) is having a different computer for shipyards on ships. this computer would have reduced efficiency, a limit on the number of blocks that could be connected and an increased power reqiament. a similar system could be used for factories on ships.

You wouldn't need a new computer/blocks to do that, simply make it that if it's placed on a ship, slightly reduced efficiency.

 

[spunkiethefirst]

Mobile shipyards are already possible currently (0.19431) they just aren't mobile like a ship is. The same goes for factories, undeathinators, and warp gates (send from mobile, can't receive to mobile, and warp range limits still apply). this is all possible by using an asteroid as the entity.

disadvantages are:
-no jump drive (can still be sent through a warp gate)
-no direct motion control like a ship
-no claiming systems with faction block
-no station invulnerability
-as of 0.19431 and possibly earlier you can't dock a ship to the rail blocks placed directly on an asteroid
-can not blueprint structure as it is based on an asteroid

proof of concept video:


Since it can not be blueprinted, if you need help making one on your server, pm me and I'll get you started. Be sure to include your in game name and server address.

 

[Goblin]

I liked the post from whooplaah somewhere on page 4.

In my opinion it pretty much descripes the difference between starmade and the real thing.
And from all the other posts i think the greatest fear is currently that stations will render useless with having the ability to have everything on a ship.

To give stations a reason to life currently there is only the matter of predictability - which is a pretty need buff for the guys trading with you but is debuffed by the guys trying to hit your face, and the possibility to make one of them invincable.

So we coudl give stations a benefit (or ships a debuff) ARGUMENTED by the matters given by the real world:

Matters of Scaled Production:
Make it heavy, production is a heavy thing - Bigger thing gets much slower - greater need for trust -> place and energy needs.
You wont care for mass on stations they do not move in any way

Matters of Limited Power:
I wouldn't do anything about it because this is a need created by our current limited energy-systems. Starmade got a future energysystem which overcomes this problem

Matter of Locomotive Production:
Make the thing produce slower on ships
Because it has to be travel-safe -> no parts flying away from the transport belt

Maybe you have even better ideas but i would not recommen any idea which include fixes sizes- in my opinion this is against one of the base ideas of starmade.

 

[Parameter]

I think it's a bad idea to limit the behaviour of blocks based on what platform they are deployed on. If a proposed solution to balancing a block looks like:

if(blockParent.equals(station))
{

do_x();​

}
else //ship
{

do_x_inefficiently();​

}
​

That tells me there's no real balance based on the parent's capabilities, only an arbitrary decision.

I think it's silly to restrict production capabilities to stations just because it artificially gives stations an advantage. Stations should be designed to have inherent advantages versus ships.

As an example, I can draw a portrait just as easily in my house as I can on an airplane. What's the limitation? I can't carry as much on the airplane, so I have less tools. I don't have a lot of room around my seat, so my paper size can't be too big. In starmade, the limitation is that drawing a portrait on an airplane isn't allowed by the laws of physics (ie, the game engine).

I think that hard limitation is there because otherwise there's no reason for stations to exist as they are. To stretch the earlier analogy, in starmade, my airplane can be as big as a house. Why shouldn't I carry all the art supplies I would keep in a house onto my giant airplane when I want to draw? There's no space constraint, no weight limit, nothing to prevent me from duplicating my home production set up on the airplane.

In Starmade, there's nothing that keeps me from having as much power on a titan as a station. Nothing which keeps me from having as many factories on a titan as a station. Nothing which keeps me from having as large a shipyard on a titan as a station. Nothing except two seemingly-arbritrary restrictions which limit shipyards and factories to stations.

If Schine wants people to use stations for production, stations should have something besides a magic rule that makes them attractive to produce stuff on. Make block storage take up space. Make stored blocks add to ship/station mass. Make stations more efficient at power generation, with a power softcap that's 10x larger than ships. Make factories and shipyards take 10x more power than they do right now.

These kind of things naturally make stations more attractive for production than ships, because stations would have the best inherent advantages to storage and power production. You could still build on ships, but you would naturally be limited by power generation or resource capacity.

This kind of solution doesn't require any silly new rules like "we can't produce if we're moving." It allows nomads to be truly nomadic, but their mobility gives them a natural disadvantage in efficiency they have to live with or overcome.

 

[Goblin]

Generally the idea could also look like this:
on do{
behaviour.do();
}
which is set on creating the block.

so this out of the way:

The only concern that hits me with your idea is: 10x energy means 10x more shield and weaponpower -> you would have to rethink the bashing a base thing.

 

[Parameter]

Generally the idea could also look like this:
on do{
behaviour.do();
}
which is set on creating the block.

so this out of the way:

The only concern that hits me with your idea is: 10x energy means 10x more shield and weaponpower -> you would have to rethink the bashing a base thing.

I agree with your concern. I'm not committed to the specific rules I threw out, I just wanted to give an example of how you could give the station some inherent advantages that made made it more desirable than a titan in certain situations.

I'm not entirely convinced that stations being more efficient weapon platforms or harder to crack is a bad thing, though. As it stands now, I can't think of any reason a station should win a fight vs. a similarly massed ship. It can't dodge incoming fire, it's weapons have no range advantage, attackers can retreat at their leisure - a station right now is a sitting duck against any formidable opponent.

Giving stations a power advantage would level the playing field somewhat. They could have truly formidable shields, but that in and of itself is a very large resource investment. They could have impressive weapons, but they are stationary. Enemies could still exploit the static nature of the defenses to circumvent them or attack from a weaker side of the station, or focus fire on disabling one weapon and create a "safe zone" to attack from.

In general, I'm not sure I have a problem with stations being able to "do more" per block than ships. They do give up mobility and have a 1 million credit price tag.

 

[Goblin]

Would also make an attack on a station more to an event....

Why not 'shrug'

 

[whooplaah]

The stations we have in starmade are a block, and the belies the myriad of moving parts that must exist to allow the block to function. If we want to address realism (I know, it's a game) then we must consider how a ship flying through space, turning and twirling, would affect the automation of a factory. A stable factory on a station can be more productive because it doesn't have to address the issue of the station spinning or shaking or entering/exiting gravity while in opperation.

This was why I initially proposed that a mobile factory be forced to park in order to turn the factories on (which takes time and isn't feasible during an attack). Some individuals are opposed, so we move on.

A close second to this would be having the factory consume more power on a ship than a station. It has to account for twisting/turning, and does so with more electronics and stabilizers... or something. This means that a ship will probably end up parking while the factories are on (power depletion), it won't be able to fight and manufacture simultaneously, or it will have to have some huge batteries to compensate. I'd be OK with this.

Limiting production on the ship vs. a station is my third choice. I would say that making them 1/20th as efficient would strongly encourage players to build a station. Do you really want to make your ship 20x bigger to be as productive as that station? Probably not. Oh, see that capital ship? I can crank out the same amount of product with a station 1/20th the size. This is a big difference, but it keeps stations relevant.

I do love Parameter's idea of having block storage take up room. Cargo bays with blocks instead of 4-dimensional chests. I don't think that would be a strong enough force to keep stations alive, though.

As an aside, let's try to keep everything toned down and less argumentative so that the thread doesn't get deleted or locked.


Completely Off topic:

Spoiler

I also like what Parameter said a few posts back. Stations are super easy to capture - they have the same weapon range, the same shield strength, the same power consumption, and no ability to dodge or hide. If you take out a couple of turrets, an attacker could just sit and shoot until it dies.

This can be addressed by either buffing a station (as suggested by Parameter) or introducing ammo for all weapons. You could produce laser refractors, force cells, or proton charges at a factory and that would give a big advantage to stations. Either 1) attacking ships can't produce ammo at all and have to go off and restock or 2) ships produce ammo much, much slower than a station or 3) ships will have less storage for resources used to make ammo.

It also allows for sieges to be effective. If you blockade a station it will eventually run out of supplies, and thus out of ammo, and be easy to capture. Or alternatively you could sneak aboard and sabotage the ammo production.