Read by Council Hinder design theft

    Benevolent27

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    Brilliant. So essentially an extension of an earlier idea to programmatically store the design somewhere within the ship: "update repair design" enables players to now deconstruct, and automatically save, an updated copy without releasing access of the protected to a non-spawning player. Support for this could be limited to shipyards - another way of encouraging shipyard usage.

    Only real hitch to this, would be when saving a ship that has unprotected turrets on it; I suppose its not really a big deal to now integrate those turrets into the repair design. You do still retain full control and access over your own turret design, the "update repair design" function simply makes it easy for you bundle everything into one easily-repaired, package.

    Agreed on the rest of what you said - very nicely illustrated.
    [doublepost=1475502369,1475501683][/doublepost]

    Fair enough. In addition, if shipyards are required to activate the AllowCopy attribute, then smaller things such as turrets are less likely to be assigned the attribute, as players would probably just spawn those entities from a blueprint, sans-shipyard.
    Thanks!

    The second quote you have here brings an important question to mind though. How to deal with attached entities? That is a rather tough question. I think it would have to be that all entities have their own permissions and repair designs stored in their own respective "ship-core computers." The shipyard would need to check all the permissions first before continuing and would need to only allow conservative operations.

    Example 1: If a person attempts to create a new design on an unprotected ship, but which has a protected turret on it, the shipyard would give a warning, "Ship has an attached entity (name of entity) which will not be included in design due to lack of permission access. Do you wish to continue? yes/no" The design created would NOT have the turret on it.
    Example 2: When repairing, it would work fine so long as all attached entities have the permission to repair allowed.
    Example 3: If a person attempts to update the repair schematic for a ship, but one of the attached entities is set to NOT allow repair schematic updates, then the shipyard will return the error, "Unable to update repair design. You do not currently have adequate permission on the following entity(s): Turret1, turret2, etc." The reason it cannot allow the update (even for the unprotected entities) is because if entities have their repair design updated independently, it might result in a design with overlapping blocks.
    Example 4: Let's say a person has an unprotected carrier ship (which they have faction access set to personal) but which has a protected fighter ship on it. The player could undock the small fighter ship and dock it to a shipyard and then repair the ship, if they have permission to do so. It would not spawn in a whole new carrier ship, because the repair design would be taken from the ship core of the fighter docked to the shipyard.
    Example 5: Let's say the same unprotected carrier ship the above example is used in an attack. It takes some damage and all the protected fighters it has on board are lost. When taking the carrier back to the shipyard, a repair is ran. Only the carrier ship is repaired. None of the fighters lost will reappear, because their ship cores were not in the docking chain. The shipyard could not obtain their individual repair schematics. However, if only 2 fighters were lost out of 4, then when the carrier ship is repaired, those 2 fighters would, in fact, be rebuilt with the carrier ship.
     
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    Erth Paradine

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    Thanks!

    The second quote you have here brings an important question to mind though. How to deal with attached entities? That is a rather tough question. I think it would have to be that all entities have their own permissions and repair designs stored in their own respective "ship-core computers." The shipyard would need to check all the permissions first before continuing and would need to only allow conservative operations.

    Example 1: If a person attempts to create a new design on an unprotected ship, but which has a protected turret on it, the shipyard would give a warning, "Ship has an attached entity (name of entity) which will not be included in design due to lack of permission access. Do you wish to continue? yes/no" The design created would NOT have the turret on it.
    Example 2: When repairing, it would work fine so long as all attached entities have the permission to repair allowed.
    Example 3: If a person attempts to update the repair schematic for a ship, but one of the attached entities is set to NOT allow repair schematic updates, then the shipyard will return the error, "Unable to update repair design. You do not currently have adequate permission on the following entity(s): Turret1, turret2, etc." The reason it cannot allow the update (even for the unprotected entities) is because if entities have their repair design updated independently, it might result in a design with overlapping blocks.
    Example 4: Let's say a person has an unprotected carrier ship (which they have faction access set to personal) but which has a protected fighter ship on it. The player could undock the small fighter ship and dock it to a shipyard and then repair the ship, if they have permission to do so. It would not spawn in a whole new carrier ship, because the repair design would be taken from the ship core of the fighter docked to the shipyard.
    Example 5: Let's say the same unprotected carrier ship the above example is used in an attack. It takes some damage and all the protected fighters it has on board are lost. When taking the carrier back to the shipyard, a repair is ran. Only the carrier ship is repaired. None of the fighters lost will reappear, because their ship cores were not in the docking chain. The shipyard could not obtain their individual repair schematics. However, if only 2 fighters were lost out of 4, then when the carrier ship is repaired, those 2 fighters would, in fact, be rebuilt with the carrier ship.
    So, essentially - all cores could carry with them a copy of their originally-spawned design. Your proposed various tiers of repair and copy permissions, would simply leverage that pre-stored information. That does sound slightly complicated, but then, not really any more complicated than figuring out logic, or rails; players would just need good visibility of what has which permissions, and the shipyard interface does seem like a good way to do that.

    What's most interesting about your proposal, is that there's no necessary tethering to blueprints, and therefore is something that players would configure for their ships, on only their chosen servers. No impacts to CC, and no actual changes to the contents of uploaded/downloaded blueprints. This sounds to me like that would adequately address concerns raised by others earlier in this thread.

    Moving away from the whole blueprint fearmongering from earlier...now I understand how your proposal could be far more easily merged with the OP, and even done so without a great deal of added programming complexity:
    • A new feature is added to ALL player-created entities: storage of the entire entity's design, at the moment it was spawned, in a player-inaccessible storage repository (e.g. ship core). This would practically be no different, that the current concept of a player creating a design from their ship, and then storing that design in a cargo block on their ship...except that this proposal makes the adjustments of:
      • Design storage is automated, and players shall not access this stored item.
      • There are game-engine enforced rules around whom is permitted to update or copy the stored design.
    • Now, let's change the proposed "AllowCopy" attribute, from a boolean to an int, and call it "modifierPermit"
    • modifierPermit would contain a numerical value representing:
      • 0: Automatically store read/write copy of design as this entity was originally spawned, allow shipyards to overwrite/update this design if the player uses a shipyard interface to make the request. No limits to blueprint or design creation (e.g. how all player-created entities exist today. with the added design storage feature).
      • 1: Automatically store read/write copy of design as this entity was originally spawned, and allow shipyards to overwrite/update this design if the player uses a shipyard interface to make the request. Deny creation of a portable design or blueprint.
      • 2: Automatically store read-only copy of design as this entity was originally spawned, and allow shipyards to repair to this design only. Deny creation of a portable design or blueprint.
    To address a reasonable concern raised by some whom want to broadly share their designs/works as an in-game 3D model, or demonstration of their skills, but also don't want to release unhinged duplication privileges:
    • The preference would be that those more sensitive players simply encourage others to visit X server, and view the designs there.
    To address requests for providing a downloadable, but read-only, copy of ship designs, even via CC:
    • The preference would be that players are encouraged to use the existing "Export as 3d model" feature.
    ...and that's where my gut says such limitations should stop (e.g. not going further into blueprints, etc).

    UPDATE: moved the 2nd-half of this response to a separate message. It has far less support, and honestly isn't something I see a lot of value in implementing...but just for prosperity's sake...
     
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    Lukwan

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    I have mixed-feelings about the following, but let's keep brainstorming with the idea for a moment:

    To address a reasonable concern raised by some whom want to facilicate downloadable, distribuitable, copies of their design, while still imposing some control over how those designs are used on other servers, in SP, etc...
    I just wanted to add something regarding the CC. If any kind of copy protection gets implemented that includes the CC area of the dock there should be a category or filter devoted to those builds. As time goes on there will be an explosion of available designs in the CC and it is already hard to navigate (mostly chronological). The CC will need to be updated with more categories and operate more like a data-base where uses can engage filters.

    Some people have expressed a valid concern over not wanting to waste time on the dock sifting through designs that won't let them copy.
     

    Erth Paradine

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    I just wanted to add something regarding the CC. If any kind of copy protection gets implemented that includes the CC area of the dock there should be a category or filter devoted to those builds. As time goes on there will be an explosion of available designs in the CC and it is already hard to navigate (mostly chronological). The CC will need to be updated with more categories and operate more like a data-base where uses can engage filters.

    Some people have expressed a valid concern over not wanting to waste time on the dock sifting through designs that won't let them copy.
    Agreed, it is already difficult/frustrating enough to deal with designs that incorporate modules which are no longer supported.
     
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    Hold on. Give me one sentence (Maybe two. And no run-ons) that explain any advantage that allowing designs that cannot truly be used to be posted on the dock. There is NO POINT. This system absolutely positively never-in-a-million-years should have anything to do with the dock. Because SMD CC is only for designs people want to share, without reservations. There is no point to making it complicated for a useless, senseless system such as this.

    Ok, based on the responses, it seems Gandalf and Erth want result #1 (unprotected main ship with any protected docked part = protected until/unless part is undocked) of the 3 I inquired.
    *snip*
    So now I'm just Gandalf? Thanks, Tydeth. I do not want that saving system you said I did. I didn't ever cover that particular case. My opinion there is that it should save up to that core in the chain. So, the system will search through (and save) everything until it hits a "broken" link in the chain, broken meaning that it is protected and not owned by you. Then it stops saving. So if you have somebody else's power-generating docked-armor plate that you have four of your own turrets docked to, you will not save the turrets or the plates. This will alleviate potential undocking issues and glitches, while retaining the ability to save much of your ship.

    Snip snippety snip snip snip.
    Good job, Benevolent. You have successfully out-text-walled me in this thread.

    To all of these ideas, Benevolent27, I want to add one more: The option to add more names to a design. So, if you want to let a friend freely access the ship and blueprint, you can. (This should also apply to personal protection in faction blocks, but that's a whole separate suggestion) Also, the ability to tie a faction rank of an existing faction should apply as well. That way, you can set this design to either "Mine", "My Faction's" or "My Faction's 2nd-Rate and Above". Or "Mine and (Friends' Names Here)"
     

    Benevolent27

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    So, essentially - all cores could carry with them a copy of their originally-spawned design. Your proposed various tiers of repair and copy permissions, would simply leverage that pre-stored information. That does sound slightly complicated, but then, not really any more complicated than figuring out logic, or rails; players would just need good visibility of what has which permissions, and the shipyard interface does seem like a good way to do that.

    What's most interesting about your proposal, is that there's no necessary tethering to blueprints, and therefore is something that players would configure for their ships, on only their chosen servers. No impacts to CC, and no actual changes to the contents of uploaded/downloaded blueprints. This sounds to me like that would adequately address concerns raised by others earlier in this thread.

    Moving away from the whole blueprint fearmongering from earlier...now I understand how your proposal could be far more easily merged with the OP, and even done so without a great deal of added programming complexity:
    • A new feature is added to ALL player-created entities: storage of the entire entity's design, at the moment it was spawned, in a player-inaccessible storage repository (e.g. ship core). This would practically be no different, that the current concept of a player creating a design from their ship, and then storing that design in a cargo block on their ship...except that this proposal makes the adjustments of:
      • Design storage is automated, and players shall not access this stored item.
      • There are game-engine enforced rules around whom is permitted to update or copy the stored design.
    • Now, let's change the proposed "AllowCopy" attribute, from a boolean to an int, and call it "modifierPermit"
    • modifierPermit would contain a numerical value representing:
      • 0: Automatically store read/write copy of design as this entity was originally spawned, allow shipyards to overwrite/update this design if the player uses a shipyard interface to make the request. No limits to blueprint or design creation (e.g. how all player-created entities exist today. with the added design storage feature).
      • 1: Automatically store read/write copy of design as this entity was originally spawned, and allow shipyards to overwrite/update this design if the player uses a shipyard interface to make the request. Deny creation of a portable design or blueprint.
      • 2: Automatically store read-only copy of design as this entity was originally spawned, and allow shipyards to repair to this design only. Deny creation of a portable design or blueprint.
    To address a reasonable concern raised by some whom want to broadly share their designs/works as an in-game 3D model, or demonstration of their skills, but also don't want to release unhinged duplication privileges:
    • The preference would be that those more sensitive players simply encourage others to visit X server, and view the designs there.
    To address requests for providing a downloadable, but read-only, copy of ship designs, even via CC:
    • The preference would be that players are encouraged to use the existing "Export as 3d model" feature.
    ...and that's where my gut says we should stop.

    I have mixed-feelings about the following, but let's keep brainstorming with the idea for a moment:

    To address a reasonable concern raised by some whom want to facilicate downloadable, distribuitable, copies of their design, while still imposing some control over how those designs are used on other servers, in SP, etc...
    • Provide a means of, at the time when "save blueprint to local" is executed, for players to choose which of the three attributes are stored in the downloadable blueprint.
    • Display an attribute on each CC page, which clearly communicates the permission level for a relevant blueprint:
      • Original author wishes to share without restriction.
      • Original author wants to provide a framework from which you could build a better, faster, stronger, deadlier ship. Here's a design that you can save changes to!
      • Original author wants to share their pristine artwork, and asks that you respect their request to not mutilate its pristine beauty (well...except for cannonball holes...).
    Further, earlier in this thread we touched upon the idea of the game engine cryptographically signing blueprints, as a means of identifying the original builder, and further, of significantly easing the process around detecting modified blueprints. So while we keep in mind that this particular addition adds some programing and procedural complexity, it may not see the light of day anytime soon....let's wrap the idea in now:
    • Utilize one of many optional PGP/GPG libraries for Java.
    • At the time a player selects "save blueprint to local" the resulting packaged file is PGP-signed.
    • At the time a player loads a saved blueprint from local, the package's PGP signature is validated, to ensure that the blueprint is pristine, as originally downloaded.
    • As for accommodating tools such as SMEdit: that's where the value of a PGP keyserver comes in.
      • We ask that developers of popular tools, such as Bobby Bighoof , to integrate supporting routines that would respect a player's original wishes.
      • Anyone can still download from CC, and if the original author permitted, may also copy/change the design.
      • Upon saving a new copy of the blueprint, it is then signed with a key assigned to the person making modifications.
    That's a good way to conceptualize it. It really could just be a virtual inventory that holds 1 ship-yard design that then has a read/write/copy permissions. Alternatively, there could also be iterations saved, so a player might decide to "repair to design" and have several options available to them.

    I can see a lot of people wanting cryptographically signed blueprints, but I can also see players that might really dislike this. I do see how it would help prevent people from claiming the works of others as their own, but it could also stop any derivative works from being produced if players decide to protect all the blueprints they release.
     

    Erth Paradine

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    Hold on. Give me one sentence (Maybe two. And no run-ons) that explain any advantage that allowing designs that cannot truly be used to be posted on the dock.
    Did you see the dividing part "...and that's where my gut says we should stop. I have mixed-feelings about the following, but let's keep brainstorming with the idea for a moment..."

    Personally, I see little value in copy-restricting blueprints themselves (e.g. blueprints posted on CC), especially with the recent addition of a 3D export feature. Maybe I only kept the train of thought going to rattle the haters fans :p
     

    Benevolent27

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    Hold on. Give me one sentence (Maybe two. And no run-ons) that explain any advantage that allowing designs that cannot truly be used to be posted on the dock. There is NO POINT. This system absolutely positively never-in-a-million-years should have anything to do with the dock. Because SMD CC is only for designs people want to share, without reservations. There is no point to making it complicated for a useless, senseless system such as this.



    So now I'm just Gandalf? Thanks, Tydeth. I do not want that saving system you said I did. I didn't ever cover that particular case. My opinion there is that it should save up to that core in the chain. So, the system will search through (and save) everything until it hits a "broken" link in the chain, broken meaning that it is protected and not owned by you. Then it stops saving. So if you have somebody else's power-generating docked-armor plate that you have four of your own turrets docked to, you will not save the turrets or the plates. This will alleviate potential undocking issues and glitches, while retaining the ability to save much of your ship.


    Good job, Benevolent. You have successfully out-text-walled me in this thread.

    To all of these ideas, Benevolent27, I want to add one more: The option to add more names to a design. So, if you want to let a friend freely access the ship and blueprint, you can. (This should also apply to personal protection in faction blocks, but that's a whole separate suggestion) Also, the ability to tie a faction rank of an existing faction should apply as well. That way, you can set this design to either "Mine", "My Faction's" or "My Faction's 2nd-Rate and Above". Or "Mine and (Friends' Names Here)"
    But there is content in my wall, right? :P

    But yeah, I agree. I'm always for more customization of permissions. And if multiple people built the design, why couldn't they all have access to change the design permissions?
     
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    I'm calling out everybody who even thinks about extending this. Honestly, I did not read your entire wall of text, I skimmed. I missed the part about "should stop" and went straight past into irrelevant-content-land before figuring I'd try to stop that discussion before it wasted a lot of time and space on this thread.

    Yes, Benevolent, there is content there.

    And I try to read everything before posting and expecting people to read my walls of text, but really, it gets hard at times. Especially when it keeps going. And going. Even when its reasonable, decent thought put into words. So I try to summarize wherever possible.
     
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    Erth Paradine

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    Good job, Benevolent. You have successfully out-text-walled me in this thread.

    To all of these ideas, Benevolent27, I want to add one more: The option to add more names to a design. So, if you want to let a friend freely access the ship and blueprint, you can. (This should also apply to personal protection in faction blocks, but that's a whole separate suggestion) Also, the ability to tie a faction rank of an existing faction should apply as well. That way, you can set this design to either "Mine", "My Faction's" or "My Faction's 2nd-Rate and Above". Or "Mine and (Friends' Names Here)"
    That could be as simple as adding more options to the existing proposed modifierPermit attribute:
    • 3: If mutual member of faction. Automatically store read/write copy of design as this entity was originally spawned, allow shipyards to overwrite/update this design if the player uses a shipyard interface to make the request. No limits to blueprint or design creation (e.g. how all player-created entities exist today. with the added design storage feature).
    • 4: If mutual member of faction. Automatically store read/write copy of design as this entity was originally spawned, and allow shipyards to overwrite/update this design if the player uses a shipyard interface to make the request. Deny creation of a portable design or blueprint.
    • 5: If mutual member of faction. Automatically store read-only copy of design as this entity was originally spawned, and allow shipyards to repair to this design only. Deny creation of a portable design or blueprint.

    I'm calling out everybody who even thinks about extending this. Honestly, I did not read your entire wall of text, I skimmed. I missed the part about "should stop" and went straight past into irrelevant-content-land before figuring I'd try to stop that discussion before it wasted a lot of time and space on this thread.
    ...
    Fair enough - I was just trying to regurgitate the OP in the context of something which could be linked to.

    ...that posting's CC/blueprint addition though, it still makes me uneasy.
    [doublepost=1475525728,1475525546][/doublepost]
    But there is content in my wall, right? :p

    But yeah, I agree. I'm always for more customization of permissions. And if multiple people built the design, why couldn't they all have access to change the design permissions?
    Because right now, the game only recognizes one "spawner", and one "lastModifier", per entity. Adding multiple entries, and/or trying to track a great deal more info like that, would probably start ballooning this metadata much further than I imagine Schema would want to see.
     

    Benevolent27

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    That could be as simple as adding more options to the existing proposed modifierPermit attribute:
    • 3: If mutual member of faction. Automatically store read/write copy of design as this entity was originally spawned, allow shipyards to overwrite/update this design if the player uses a shipyard interface to make the request. No limits to blueprint or design creation (e.g. how all player-created entities exist today. with the added design storage feature).
    • 4: If mutual member of faction. Automatically store read/write copy of design as this entity was originally spawned, and allow shipyards to overwrite/update this design if the player uses a shipyard interface to make the request. Deny creation of a portable design or blueprint.
    • 5: If mutual member of faction. Automatically store read-only copy of design as this entity was originally spawned, and allow shipyards to repair to this design only. Deny creation of a portable design or blueprint.


    Fair enough - I was just trying to regurgitate the OP in the context of something which could be linked to.

    ...that posting's CC/blueprint addition though, it still makes me uneasy.
    [doublepost=1475525728,1475525546][/doublepost]

    Because right now, the game only recognizes one "spawner", and one "lastModifier", per entity. Adding multiple entries, and/or trying to track a great deal more info like that, would probably start ballooning this metadata much further than I imagine Schema would want to see.
    My concept is to make the permissions go with the ship. So permissions are already taken care of then by the faction block. If the person has access to the ship, then they can repair the ship or update the repair design.

    But as for more than one player being listed as a "Designer" and having access to edit the permissions, the first person to edit it would be set as the "Designer." They might also have an option to "Add Designer" and type someone's name in. These subsequent co-designers would have access to change the permissions, but would not be able to remove other designers. Only the first Designer would.
     

    Erth Paradine

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    My concept is to make the permissions go with the ship. So permissions are already taken care of then by the faction block. If the person has access to the ship, then they can repair the ship or update the repair design.

    But as for more than one player being listed as a "Designer" and having access to edit the permissions, the first person to edit it would be set as the "Designer." They might also have an option to "Add Designer" and type someone's name in. These subsequent co-designers would have access to change the permissions, but would not be able to remove other designers. Only the first Designer would.
    Yea, that's just starting to get too stacked/complicated for my taste.

    Afterall, if you're going to trust a player (or multiple) to work on the design, could shipyards be leveraged instead: if member of faction & XX rank, you may edit designs in XX yard. Maybe through using a "this design shall not leave shipyard storage" type option? Once the design is finalized, you distribute the final works to each player, with an unrestricted repair option?
     
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    The problem is, I like to operate solo/with just one other person, even in a larger faction. So I want my friend capable of editing my ships and saving them, but not everybody else of his rank and above in the faction.
     

    Erth Paradine

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    The problem is, I like to operate solo/with just one other person, even in a larger faction. So I want my friend capable of editing my ships and saving them, but not everybody else of his rank and above in the faction.
    So lock down the shipyard, ensuring that only you + friend can access it? Use a combination lock on the doors?
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    I'd have to disagree with putting protection on CC builds. As was mentioned before, it's on CC for a reason.

    Keep it simple;
    Full access: No restrictions at all. (basically what CC is now.)
    Partial access: Spawn, repair but no saving or copying (sales/shipwrights)
    Restricted: No repairing, saving or copying. (Anti-spy/capture)

    Make the protection apply to the individual ship only. This will prevent someone from showing up with the U.S.S. Enterprise, docking your (stolen/captured) Imperial Star Destroyer to it, then copying both; essentially bypassing your protection.

    Remember; more complex options means, more chances to exploit.

    [doublepost=1475527695,1475527438][/doublepost]Edit. You can always protect your turrets/docked units separately if you want. Or leave them unprotected to save time.

    My mobile command system had over 80 turrets on it. 72 were point defense. I wouldn't have cared if someone took a turret, so long as the base was protected.
     
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    That's the thing---I want to be able to lock this down without resorting to extreme measures. I want to be able to give my friend permission to edit my designs, but not the whole faction (Who I might want to share these ships with, without letting them take the BPs to other servers/SP).
     

    Erth Paradine

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    That's the thing---I want to be able to lock this down without resorting to extreme measures. I want to be able to give my friend permission to edit my designs, but not the whole faction (Who I might want to share these ships with, without letting them take the BPs to other servers/SP).
    Give him a copy of your BP?
     
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    I want him able to specifically edit my ships, not just spawn in new ones, but to change shared vessels and save them without going through me. Admittedly its not that much of a problem, but this would still be nice for me.
     

    Lukwan

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    General observation:

    There seems to be a meme here that suggests creative people are looking for ways to hoard or hide their creations. This makes no sense to me. Creative people are, by their nature, obsessed with sharing their Art. They want people to see it, and admire it sometimes wanting to collaborate with others on it's creation. They are not stingy misers who hoard their art like a Dragon hoards gold. Many creative types I know are convinced of their own genius and feel compelled to prove it with their work. They are innate sharers. It runs against their very nature to hide the ideas that that they pour themselves into. It think we can all relax about that.
     

    Erth Paradine

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    I want him able to specifically edit my ships, not just spawn in new ones, but to change shared vessels and save them without going through me. Admittedly its not that much of a problem, but this would still be nice for me.
    How do existing game mechanics prevent that?