Should buffs for fighters be something Schine needs to look into, regardless of the ideas I propose?


    • Total voters
      70
    Joined
    Jan 1, 2015
    Messages
    923
    Reaction score
    292
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Purchased!
    • Thinking Positive
    Actually, nuclear warheads are crap in space.

    Virtually all of their destructive power comes from being in an atmosphere where the radiation they cause creates a blast wave. In space, no atmosphere means no blast wave means a nuclear bomb is nothing but an EMP weapon with some radiation.
    This is not entirely correct. Most certainly a nuke going off in the atmosphere will be much more destructive due to the shock wave propagating in the atmosphere. However a nuke going off in close proximity to a target in space will still have vastly more effect than a conventional explosive. The nuke itself will vaporize with insane force creating destructive pressure from it's own ultra high velocity exploding atoms to anything nearby. Far more destructive however will be the thermal flash of the nuke, literally explosively vaporizing the surface of anything nearby.

    It is this last effect, the thermal flash explosively vaporizing the surface of a target, that permits the idea of using nukes to move asteroids or comets out of a collision path with the Earth.
     

    Az14el

    Definitely not a skywanderers dev
    Joined
    Apr 25, 2015
    Messages
    848
    Reaction score
    325
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    "some radiation" certainly includes a shitton of heat
     
    Joined
    Dec 25, 2015
    Messages
    145
    Reaction score
    21
    Mah Warheads...
    :D I'll stop okay.

    If you go thrust power dockers shipremotes, docked entities only weigh like 1/10th their actual mass. Especially if it's not moving and you have a reloading station, you could do the same to a ship, shielded or unshielded. I bet you could even manage cloaking if you tried.
    11
    + a few respect points, making it and posting on dock. And I just thought you where being sassy :p
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Lecic

    sayerulz

    Identifies as a T-34
    Joined
    Nov 16, 2013
    Messages
    616
    Reaction score
    179
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    Nukes can certainly be destructive in space, but they would not be the world ending, battleship one-shotting weapons that most people think of them as.

    There's no reason that a 500 meter, shielded ship with tons of armor could not survive several nukes. Note as well that the damage of a nuke in space would drop off VERY fast as one got farther away from the blast center, because almost all of the damage would be dealt by the various radiation, which is spreading out in a sphere from the center, and quickly becoming more diffuse.
     
    Joined
    Nov 30, 2015
    Messages
    855
    Reaction score
    75
    Nukes can certainly be destructive in space, but they would not be the world ending, battleship one-shotting weapons that most people think of them as.

    There's no reason that a 500 meter, shielded ship with tons of armor could not survive several nukes. Note as well that the damage of a nuke in space would drop off VERY fast as one got farther away from the blast center, because almost all of the damage would be dealt by the various radiation, which is spreading out in a sphere from the center, and quickly becoming more diffuse.
    Heck, if you could get a 10 cm slab of lead or a minimum of even water covering the thing, and radiation would just maybe scrape off that layer. If shields are anything like that, it'll be fine. Besides. The earth uses a magnetic shield to protect an entire planet from radiation that could literally burn it's atmosphere off it. If our shields are magnetic, then they should have no problem.
     

    Gasboy

    BLRP
    Joined
    Aug 11, 2013
    Messages
    1,311
    Reaction score
    360
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Legacy Citizen 6
    • Purchased!
    True but we don't play in that universe. We have to use the tools at hand in this one.
    In this universe, fighters mounted nuclear ordinance. However, they were done away with because of the nuclear arms limitations. You can have one nuke, are you taking a fighter sized one, or an ICBM. :P
     

    sayerulz

    Identifies as a T-34
    Joined
    Nov 16, 2013
    Messages
    616
    Reaction score
    179
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    Heck, if you could get a 10 cm slab of lead or a minimum of even water covering the thing, and radiation would just maybe scrape off that layer. If shields are anything like that, it'll be fine. Besides. The earth uses a magnetic shield to protect an entire planet from radiation that could literally burn it's atmosphere off it. If our shields are magnetic, then they should have no problem.
    Well, that depends on the kind of radiation. Magnetic fields and dense armor would both protect from charged particles, yes. But nukes give off some of practically every radiation there is. The biggest worry would be all of the electromagnetic radiation (light) they give off. Any of it that hit the hull and was not reflected would turn into heat, and potentially melt or even evaporate armor. But only at quite close range, and even then, they are not going to just evaporate the whole ship.
     

    Edymnion

    Carebear Extraordinaire!
    Joined
    Mar 18, 2015
    Messages
    2,709
    Reaction score
    1,512
    • Purchased!
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    • Legacy Citizen 5
    Yeah, that was my point. They're still powerful if you basically set them off inside the hull where all that power and radiation can actually be absorbed efficiently. Out in space though, most of the initial detonation is going to radiate away into open space and be lost. Most of what is left is just going to bounce off the surface of the target. Only a very minute fraction of the total power will actually go into destroying anything physically, and its gotta be right on top of it to do even that.

    Its like holding a fire cracker. Put it on your open palm and it'll burn your hand. Clench it in a fist and it'll blow your fingers off.

    Everybody thinks of nukes as being ultimate weapons, but 99% of their destructive force on Earth comes from the atmosphere. The blasts are comparatively very weak in space.
     

    ZeroRa

    Vaygr Representative
    Joined
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages
    124
    Reaction score
    74
    This thread gets less and less merit every time it's posted.
     

    AtraUnam

    Maiden of crashes
    Joined
    Oct 15, 2013
    Messages
    1,121
    Reaction score
    869
    • Railman Gold
    • Competition Winner - Small Fleets
    • Wired for Logic Gold
    Exactly what Edymnion said. At a distance its just a big radiation flash but at near point blank range (or while literally in contact with the hull) The energy is conducted directly into the ship just as in an atmosphere which tends to result in the whole thing being vaporised.
     
    Joined
    Nov 30, 2015
    Messages
    855
    Reaction score
    75
    They're still powerful if you basically set them off inside the hull where all that power and radiation can actually be absorbed efficiently.
    At which point it's glitch-jumping it through the structure, using an inside man, or are now Luke skywalker with nuclear proton torpedos.
     

    Gasboy

    BLRP
    Joined
    Aug 11, 2013
    Messages
    1,311
    Reaction score
    360
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Legacy Citizen 6
    • Purchased!
    ...vulberable sub-systems, which were intentionally stupidly designed for plot convenience.
    Talk to the Royal Navy about the Battle of Jutland. Or NASA about the Space Shuttles.
     
    Joined
    Mar 31, 2016
    Messages
    455
    Reaction score
    59
    In the Royal Navy, the problem was the lack of a real general staff to oversee supply, dispositions, tactics, ship construction/design - the high ranking people who know what they're doing, in charge of making sure everything is done safely, properly, and RIGHT.

    But I digress. In space, a nuclear blast is not that scary. Heck, it's not that scary (to warships) in-atmosphere. Look at the Bikini Atoll tests.
    The heavy cruiser Pensacola (light cruiser boosted a rating due to 8" armament), the old Wyoming-class battleship Arkansas, and the battleship Nagato were within a half-mile of the detonation radius. Their upperworks (bridge and such) suffered due to the shockwave and heat, but their hulls and turrets were virtually unharmed. As with other ships, the radiation was the chief concern. Ask the firefighters who died at Chernobyl; that's a pretty immediate concern, they began to die hours after they responded.

    However, given a better blast medium, the second test on Baker Day resulted in what must have been an unforgettable sight.

    Detonated 300 ft beneath the waves, under a landing vessel, the blast lifted the 26,000-ton Arkansas on a column of water hundreds of feet high, and a globe of radioactive, heated water was launched into the sky. The Nagato and Pensacola sank some time after the blast; the Arkansas came down from the column and went to the bottom of the lagoon.

    So the main danger is the shockwave; radiation is a major concern but for at least a couple of hours the mortally irradiated crewers can continue fighting, even though there is no current way to reverse major radiation damage.

    However, we here do not have nukes, so this was all off-topic. But it was fun; I love this kind of history-scifi-sciencey stuff if you didn't realize that by my long-winded rambling on obscure things. ;)
     
    Joined
    Mar 2, 2014
    Messages
    1,293
    Reaction score
    230
    • Thinking Positive
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    Actually, nuclear warheads are crap in space.

    Virtually all of their destructive power comes from being in an atmosphere where the radiation they cause creates a blast wave. In space, no atmosphere means no blast wave means a nuclear bomb is nothing but an EMP weapon with some radiation.
    Actually, a nuclear EMP is mostly generated by gamma radiation interacting with atmosphere and a planetary magnetic field.

    Talk to the Royal Navy about the Battle of Jutland. Or NASA about the Space Shuttles.
    I think his point was that they had glaring design flaws that, in hindsight, seem very unlikely.
    The responsible person was probably a Russian spy. When in doubt, blame the Russians. Speaking of, did you know, that 80% of the bugs in StarMade are sneaked into the code by Russian hackers?
     

    Gasboy

    BLRP
    Joined
    Aug 11, 2013
    Messages
    1,311
    Reaction score
    360
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Legacy Citizen 6
    • Purchased!
    Space shuttles aren't built to repel off attacks from military vessels.
    Sure, but you think that some foam insulation wouldn't cause them to explode, yes? Or faulty O-rings?

    My point is that in hindsight, many things may look to be stupid "there's no way that it'd happen that easily" stuff.

    For Independence Day, the error on the alien's part was dropping their ships into the atmosphere, within reach of our puny teeth. Had they stayed in space, F16s wouldn't have killed them. Of course, the hacker could have still dropped the aliens' shields. And we'd have found out if our nukes could destroy them in space.
     
    Joined
    Sep 5, 2013
    Messages
    527
    Reaction score
    109
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Purchased!
    I feel that some more weapon balancing needs yet to occur. It feels like I need to build some pretty massive weapons to have any real impact on advanced armor or shields. Add this to the changes to the rail system that was added, and turrets end up being ridiculous in size. When I build anything presently, it is the turret size that determines the scale of the ship, and I find it hard to build anything that could be considered a "frigate," let alone a fighter.

    When I'm making original ships, this isn't necessarily a problem, but I challenge anyone to find images of spacecraft with turrets that are 25% or more of the size of the ship's hull. I'm used to seeing turrets dot the hull of ships in sci-fi art, not completely dominate their structure. Even my original ships draw inspiration from the artwork and design of others, and I'd like to see weapons (or defenses) reflect popular opinion of scale in this regard.
     

    sayerulz

    Identifies as a T-34
    Joined
    Nov 16, 2013
    Messages
    616
    Reaction score
    179
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    I feel that some more weapon balancing needs yet to occur. It feels like I need to build some pretty massive weapons to have any real impact on advanced armor or shields. Add this to the changes to the rail system that was added, and turrets end up being ridiculous in size. When I build anything presently, it is the turret size that determines the scale of the ship, and I find it hard to build anything that could be considered a "frigate," let alone a fighter.

    When I'm making original ships, this isn't necessarily a problem, but I challenge anyone to find images of spacecraft with turrets that are 25% or more of the size of the ship's hull. I'm used to seeing turrets dot the hull of ships in sci-fi art, not completely dominate their structure. Even my original ships draw inspiration from the artwork and design of others, and I'd like to see weapons (or defenses) reflect popular opinion of scale in this regard.
    I agree with this. Effective turret-based ships seem to want half the ships mass to be turrets. I think increasing the power, power consumption, and material cost of weapons across the board is all that's really needed there. After all, in most scifi, ships power generators usually seem to be the biggest system on the ship, and it's only a rare and specialized ship that has a weapon that takes half it's mass.