Should buffs for fighters be something Schine needs to look into, regardless of the ideas I propose?


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    Energywelder

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    That would be too easy. You can easily overwelm PD turrets with missile spam and distract anti-fighter turrets with cheap drones.
    And that's a legitimate tactic, but if the fighters are right behind the distracting missiles, and flak that doesn't hit a missile will hit them. And I believe it's already an AI option to target missiles, ships, or all. Although it would be nice to have the ability to select "small ships", not just all ships.

    Edit: Although, I'd like to remind people that a fighter that's only 20 blocks is like . . . a single hit from being disabled, as soon as it stops in space the next volley kills it. The cheaper will not be the better.
    [doublepost=1474472630,1474472267][/doublepost]
    A couple hundred blocks total is still a pod in my book.

    You're taking a dingy, mounting a .22 rifle on it, and wondering why even a fleet of them can't hurt an aircraft carrier.

    Its not a fundamental flaw in the game, its a flaw in the thinking of people that are trying to build tiny tiny tiny little ships and throw them against hulking behemoths.
    I don't want to mount a gun on this thing, I want it to be packing lots of explosives. Didn't someone try sinking an aircraft carrier by running a boat filled to the brim with explosives right up next to it? I'm talking last 20 years or so?
     

    Edymnion

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    Now that we have Auxiliary Power its a lot easier to explain some of the movie style "single lone fighter destroys a behemoth" moments.

    Luke vs. the Death Star? Crazy Pilot Guy vs. the Independence Day ship? They weren't doing enough damage to actually destroy the ship/station, they were strategically hitting their auxiliary power systems and then getting out while said systems self destructed and took the rest of the ship/station with it.

    Heck, watch Independence Day. Even with the ship's shields down, the entire fighter fleet couldn't do enough damage with their guns and missiles to actually hurt the thing. Everybody being out of missiles was actually a major plot point. We threw every fighter, every gun, every bomb we had at the thing, and it wasn't enough to even slow it down.

    Wasn't until we found the vulnerable sub-system that would go chain reaction and take the rest of the ship with it did we win.

    Same thing in Starmade. You're throwing an F-16 against a mothership and you want it to stand a chance? Doesn't work, unless you can be very specific about where you hit, and that requires either luck (like in ID4), or exact knowledge of where to hit.
    [doublepost=1474472791,1474472743][/doublepost]
    I don't want to mount a gun on this thing, I want it to be packing lots of explosives. Didn't someone try sinking an aircraft carrier by running a boat filled to the brim with explosives right up next to it? I'm talking last 20 years or so?
    Yeah, they did. It made a small hole in the side of the ship. The ship did not sink.
     
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    Wasn't until we found the vulnerable sub-system that would go chain reaction and take the rest of the ship with it did we win.
    ...vulberable sub-systems, which were intentionally stupidly designed for plot convenience.
     

    Edymnion

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    ...vulberable sub-systems, which were intentionally stupidly designed for plot convenience.
    Well yeah, a realistic movie about humans vs. anything that can travel to this planet in the first place is going to end very badly for us otherwise.
     

    Energywelder

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    Now that we have Auxiliary Power its a lot easier to explain some of the movie style "single lone fighter destroys a behemoth" moments.

    Luke vs. the Death Star? Crazy Pilot Guy vs. the Independence Day ship? They weren't doing enough damage to actually destroy the ship/station, they were strategically hitting their auxiliary power systems and then getting out while said systems self destructed and took the rest of the ship/station with it.

    Heck, watch Independence Day. Even with the ship's shields down, the entire fighter fleet couldn't do enough damage with their guns and missiles to actually hurt the thing. Everybody being out of missiles was actually a major plot point. We threw every fighter, every gun, every bomb we had at the thing, and it wasn't enough to even slow it down.

    Wasn't until we found the vulnerable sub-system that would go chain reaction and take the rest of the ship with it did we win.

    Same thing in Starmade. You're throwing an F-16 against a mothership and you want it to stand a chance? Doesn't work, unless you can be very specific about where you hit, and that requires either luck (like in ID4), or exact knowledge of where to hit.
    [doublepost=1474472791,1474472743][/doublepost]
    Yeah, they did. It made a small hole in the side of the ship. The ship did not sink.
    That . . . is a good point.

    But, idk, those ships are way off the scale. Like, the motherships from ID4 were 16km across, and even though there were hundreds of fighters fighting them, they were the SM equivalent of like 20 blocks. Even if my suggestion came to fruition, I never expect that fight to end in favor of the fighters. The deathstar was an even more one sided victory, that thing was hundreds of km across.

    All I want is 50 fighters of about 2oo blocks to have an even chance of severly damaging something the size of a large SD before they all DIE.
     

    Edymnion

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    All I want is 50 fighters of about 2oo blocks to have an even chance of severly damaging something the size of a large SD before they all DIE.
    Wait, SD? As in Star Destroyer?

    Those things are 1600m long. You're still asking for 10k blocks worth of ships to take down something thats likely in the 5-10 million block range.

    Even in Star Wars, single fighters never did enough damage to destroy a Star Destroyer. The only times we saw them take one down they took out it's shields and then crashed a ship directly into the bridge. Even then that didn't actually destroy it, they just made it crash into something else.

    In Starmade it was more akin to taking out the only camera and then they flew the SD into something else and collision damage took it out.

    Fair play in my book says 50 copy/pastes of something that took you 15 minutes to design and 20 minutes of resource gathering should NOT be able to take out something that the other guy spent 6 months building and harvesting to create. The guy in the big ship spent a LOT of time, effort, and resources in making his ship. You should have to do the same to stand a chance against him.
     
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    Energywelder

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    Actually the large SD's were only 1000m long, but yeah, somewhere 4m blocks. And even with default owned sector mining bonuses, gathering enough res for one wouldn't take more than . . . 12hr of mining? Maybe 6h of building stuff, less if you exceed the 10k factory I have running. And even those you can carbon copy. And if you protect your titan, or perhaps have a couple anti-fighter frigates escorting you, you won't have any issues.
     

    Ithirahad

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    Now that we have Auxiliary Power its a lot easier to explain some of the movie style "single lone fighter destroys a behemoth" moments.

    Luke vs. the Death Star? Crazy Pilot Guy vs. the Independence Day ship? They weren't doing enough damage to actually destroy the ship/station, they were strategically hitting their auxiliary power systems and then getting out while said systems self destructed and took the rest of the ship/station with it.

    Heck, watch Independence Day. Even with the ship's shields down, the entire fighter fleet couldn't do enough damage with their guns and missiles to actually hurt the thing. Everybody being out of missiles was actually a major plot point. We threw every fighter, every gun, every bomb we had at the thing, and it wasn't enough to even slow it down.

    Wasn't until we found the vulnerable sub-system that would go chain reaction and take the rest of the ship with it did we win.

    Same thing in Starmade. You're throwing an F-16 against a mothership and you want it to stand a chance? Doesn't work, unless you can be very specific about where you hit, and that requires either luck (like in ID4), or exact knowledge of where to hit.
    Yes, and that's fine. The problem is... well, shields...
     
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    Edymnion

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    Actually the large SD's were only 1000m long, but yeah, somewhere 4m blocks.
    Just nitpicking:
    Imperial I-class Star Destroyer
    Star Destroyer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Standard Star Destroyer was the Imperial class, 1600m long and just over 1000m wide.

    And even with default owned sector mining bonuses, gathering enough res for one wouldn't take more than . . . 12hr of mining? Maybe 6h of building stuff, less if you exceed the 10k factory I have running. And even those you can carbon copy. And if you protect your titan, or perhaps have a couple anti-fighter frigates escorting you, you won't have any issues.
    It would still take several days of doing nothing but mining (I don't know anyone that really wants to spend 12 solid hours doing nothing but eating asteroids), and several days of manufacturing to build the blocks for a titan, but thats not the point. Most of the time goes into the actual build/design unless you're just making a giant death cube.

    You're still putting an hour's worth of work copy/pasting 50 tiny drone sized fighters against something that took weeks or even months to make. Basic fairness says the person that put more time, effort, and resources into their ship should have a legitimate advantage over someone who tossed some stuff together on a whim.
     
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    You're still putting an hour's worth of work copy/pasting 50 tiny drone sized fighters against something that took weeks or even months to make. Basic fairness says the person that put more time, effort, and resources into their ship should have a legitimate advantage over someone who tossed some stuff together on a whim.
    Or be pro skillz enough to make reloadable tropedo bombers. #Makewarheadsgreatagain.


    [Edit]
    Go ask Dr. Whammy about his torpedo projects.
     

    Edymnion

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    Or be pro skillz enough to make reloadable tropedo bombers. #Makewarheadsgreatagain.
    Meh, warhead damage is low enough that just a double layer of advanced armor will pretty much stop it cold.

    If your titan is getting wrecked by warhead torpedoes, you built it wrong.
     
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    It would still take several days of doing nothing but mining (I don't know anyone that really wants to spend 12 solid hours doing nothing but eating asteroids), and several days of manufacturing to build the blocks for a titan, but thats not the point. Most of the time goes into the actual build/design unless you're just making a giant death cube..
    Fleet mining. :cool:
     
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    Meh, warhead damage is low enough that just a double layer of advanced armor will pretty much stop it cold.

    If your titan is getting wrecked by warhead torpedoes, you built it wrong.
    Again. #Makewarheadsgreatagain. Warheads are the ~answer to all this threads problems....
    [doublepost=1474482024,1474481892][/doublepost]
    I tried that for a while. Its just way too slow for me. Unless I've got literally hundreds of mining drones, its faster to just do it myself.
    Um, say hi to the guy that goes and messes around nearby, or has his HB where he can load a few sectors of asteroids at all times. Or the guy who doesn't respond at all because he's foruming while afk fleet mining half the system.
     
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    All I want is 50 fighters of about 2oo blocks to have an even chance of severly damaging something the size of a large SD before they all DIE.
    this seems rather unreasonable, even if i take you to mean 200mass fighters, you are effectively saying you want a 10kmass combined force, to be able to fight a 200k-5mill mass titan.

    it would be completely reasonable to want a 50x200 mass fleet to fight a 10k mass battlecruiser, or for 50x4k mass fleet to fight a 200k mini-titan, but you cant reasonably expect to be able to fight something thats 100 times your combined mass
     
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    I can see both sides here, the single fighter getting through and taking out the big bad makes for a good story or cinematic moment, but isn't a good idea for something like SM.

    Instead of 50x 200 block fighters, have you thought about 50x 2000 block fighters, or 50x 20,000 block fighters? In some of the harder military sci-fi I've read, the ships they used as fighters are a lot closer to what we would think of as small corvettes.

    I have not tested this, and my computer would not be happy if I did, but I'm willing to bet 50x 20,000 block fighters (so 1 million blocks, or the equivalent of an 100K mass ship, which is where I start thinking of something as a battleship/small titan) are going to tear apart a titan with 3 Million blocks. Especially if the fighters have a nice alpha strike weapon and even a single AMS turret each.

    On smaller scale test, I've noticed that groups of a dozen or so heavy fighters/corvettes with a decent 1.5 plus M/T Ratio, and 2-3 AMS turrets are exceptionally difficult for my larger escort-themed ships to take out quickly.

    I've even done some limited, limited because the AI can only do so much, combined arms tests where I spawn in one or two 12K mass frigates with high penetration low ROF Cannon-Pulse-Punch main weapons and a handful of 4.5K mass torpedo corvettes (Missile-Pulse Main Weapons) to test against a larger ship I'm piloting. I tend to lose in the larger ship when the fleet I spawn in gets close to or above a 50% total block count advantage.

    And I should mention those smaller ships are my fleet design entry and hardly a super efficient design. The object when I built them was to make them interesting to for a new player explore for a few minutes or encounter when wandering about.

    I'm anticipating that if I go back to refit them into more PVP oriented configurations and add some dedicated anti-shield weapons, the AI will only need roughly 75% of the larger ships TBC to decisively crush an unescorted larger ship, and that number is going to get even lower if you have intelligent humans piloting them with a little coordination and teamspeak.

    I don't know if the Meta has fully changed to account for the new Aux Power blocks, but up until the last update my understanding was that unescorted larger ships ALWAYS lost to a well designed and coordinated group of 200,000-250,000 block destroyer type ships. I'd guess with a bit of experimentation, and maybe a mix of different fighters with different weapon groups and a higher block count per ship, you could pull off the fighter tactic you're talking about.

    Actually. I'm a build server and a survival server almost every weekday night, so if you're interested in doing some testing in person so to speak, send me DM using the conversation feature of the docks :)
     
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    ...50 healthy fighters of a TBD size should stand a better than average chance of seriously damaging an unprotected titan.
    50 Marauders (400 mass each, so definitely in the fighter category) have a DPS of 1,250,000 damage per second. (!!!) That's equal to 10,000 mass or a 100,000 block ship. That's not really all that much. An opposing ship with ten times that mass investment is unlikely to be able to survive such an onslaught. Making fighters able to be even more than ten times more powerful than they are now so 50 can take down Titans that are even bigger would be IMO, utterly absurd.

    I dare say that fighters are already tough enough. You just have to build them properly.
     

    Lecic

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    You aren't Luke Skywalker. Buffed fighters are overpowered. Hell, I'd say dronespawm is already overpowered.
     
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    50 Marauders (400 mass each, so definitely in the fighter category) have a DPS of 1,250,000 damage per second. (!!!) That's equal to 10,000 mass or a 100,000 block ship. That's not really all that much. An opposing ship with ten times that mass investment is unlikely to be able to survive such an onslaught. Making fighters able to be even more than ten times more powerful than they are now so 50 can take down Titans that are even bigger would be IMO, utterly absurd.

    I dare say that fighters are already tough enough. You just have to build them properly.
    This. Once a group of smaller ships can consistently break the shields of a bigger ship it's pretty much over. Turrets break pretty easily once the shields go down, and at that point a larger ship can't realistically fight back, other then swarmers that are... unreliable at best.
     

    Az14el

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    I think there's a point where inverse square law kinda screws any chance of a smaller ship being useful in combat at all.
    Just not sure if i have any problems with that, it's a very real fact of reality after all. Viable fighters in SM are big yes, but the smallest blocks we have to work with are still technically a full square meter.
    Basically the smallest divisible unit of measurement we have to work with (a cubic meter in this case) decides the curve between size, and potential function (# of blocks you can fit inside your ship that do things instead of being inanimate HP soaks, compared to your hull/decoration/empty space etc)
     
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