[Discussion] Tired of hearing "soon"? Thoughts on the Q&A

[rece ktore leczo]

I understand, Rece, but IIRC, part of his progress-log-thing stated that he did some optimization that's "mostly for big ships." I have no idea what his idea of "big" is, but if it's anything like the community's idea of "big," it's probably not what I'd put very high up on my list of priorities unless it helps in some other way.

Of course it's mostly for big ships. Simply because it's hard to see a difference with small ships. If i.e. the optimization makes game take 20% less memory for each ship, then with 10MB consuming ship it's only 2 MBs, but with 600 MBs it's 120 MBs and this can make game run noticeable faster.


If the game cannot handle big ships before adding more features, it probably would never be able to do so.
So it's not "you're able to build big ships so you can have fun now" but "you're be able to build big ships now so in the future there will be as little limit for ship's size as possible"

it's probably not what I'd put very high up on my list of priorities unless it helps in some other way.

Basically it saves a lot of Schema's time if done now than after adding more features.
Also servers use less bandwidth, are more stable and more players can play simultaneously, players can build bigger ships and collide with bigger and bigger entities.
Probably there is more to it, just want to show that whole optimization isn't only about building bigger ships.

 

[AnnaShade017]

I've been watching this go on a while, but now I think I'll "throw my two cents in".

I feel there is a side who believes something must change to better fit what the community would like and/or the community feels neglected, and then another side who feels, for the most part, that the way things are is fine and don't see a problem with the way Schema is doing things. Thirdly, a spectrum in between those viewpoints leaning towards one side or another to varying degrees, and perhaps even people right in the middle.
Having said this, I believe it likely that people on each far side of this spectrum will not find an agreement, no matter what they throw at each other, not impossible of course, but not likely. But this thread was not posted under suggestions, and instead under general discussions, so more discussion is encouraged rather than "lets agree to disagree", in my opinion.

Now for my two cents (or more).

While I think both sides care deeply for the community, I of course don't agree with everything said. I am likely of the side that is content with how things are, not because I believe Schema can do no wrong, but because I don't mind staying here for a few years to wait. I may have some reasons to stay that others don't, one could argue more patience but I doubt that, I think I am more on the spectrum rather than one side or another and while I care about the community, the truth is that I care about the people I've become friends with, the others that I do not know, I cannot say. I'd like to say I care about them, but I really don't as much as those I know, so if they leave for reasons I disagree with I may care less when my focus is only building in this game. Yes, I am content with the current state of things, but I know not everyone is. Likely a LOT of people aren't. But I'm throwing in my opinions today because I dislike how often, it's been claimed here that "the community is *this*", "They feel *this*", "They're doing *this*". I feel it's nitpicking, but it still annoys me when the community is generalized in a way as if it's factual, and then repeatedly so. I do NOT necessarily feel that way, so I am speaking my mind now.

Two important points: In the past couple months this game, for me, has gone to barely playable, to easily playable. I got a lot of lag, and the game crashed plenty of times when I started, and now it rarely crashes, and lag is at a minimum to no noticeable lag. So when I hear about optimization, what made this game playable for me, I welcome more of it.
There are people who may be unable to play yet, and I understand if the Schine team might not want a lot of publicity or people running to StarMade yet while it's so unfinished. I see a number of people stating something along the lines of "It's been so long that they've been developing this, shouldn't they be farther along by now?" and yes, maybe so, what can I say? But I don't think we should be gaining as much publicity and people as we can right now, not until the game is in a state where people will stay. If this was a country, and we didn't want "immigration" into it, then naturally the population would decrease. This may not be the most accurate analogy, as people here (for the most part) probably aren't dying, but there are always people leaving from places.

My second point: I don't feel neglected. I really don't. This goes with my annoyance with the community being generalized. If I need questions answered I know who to talk to, people from the Schine team have been answering questions all over this site. But I think the word neglect may be coming up in reference to the feelings about how the game should be updated the way they want. There may be multiple views on this, actually, you can see many of them in this thread. Why should it be one over another? Is there really a right way? If so, then why? Schema has his own way, of course, and he's been doing this longer than the community has been here. So are there reasons significant enough to him to change his way of doing things? I still find that question may not be fully answered. Maybe it will feel more answered to me when this thread dies down, or maybe not. In any case, I am content to observe. Thank you, for those that slogged through this read. ^_^

 

[Firestorm29]

The reason they cant read it is because it is obfusticated. schema for obvious reasons wont share how to de-obfusticate it yet. If some one was hired, he would share that information with them. anyway, I have said i am happy for him to do the core by himself, so stop acting like I am against schema and the game please.

It's less you against schema and more about me trying to bring up a point and being constantly ignored when trying to bring up a counterpoint.

If it was the beginning of a major update like this one or the last optimization, I'd have a very hard time disagreeing with you, but we aren't in this situation. Most of the objectives at the beginning of the month were mostly finished except for the weapons and logic gates. And looking at the podcasts, the gates seem to be pretty far along when compared to another game's wiring system. The time it'd take to being in people might be longer at this point, because of reasons like obfusticated code.

That's been the point all along and it's felt like the only response I was getting was "Just drop in a few peeps, they'll just figure it out." even though my arguments have been more trying to emphasize the time it would take versus the amount of work left to do, it might not be worth it. Kinda like passing a point of no return. Throwing people at a problem doesn't magically create time like that.

 

[Viridis00]

Lots of text

I agree, I don't feel like Schema can do no wrong either, but for the most part I'm not worried because he's demonstrated that he's more than competent and he usually delivers in the end and then some.

No game has ever been hurt by taking more time to develop, but many games have been hurt by rushing things. So many good games don't live up to their potential because of that. Star Made is in a position where Schema doesn't have to answer to any publisher or true deadlines. Not taking advantage of that would be a mistake.

 

[Neon_42]

Viridis00 ...

No game has ever been hurt by taking more time to develop

what about Duke Nukem ?

 

[Cybertooth]

Interesting you bring that up that game in particular, as the main reason that game was awful was because it was made by too many developers, who didnt fully understand what the previous devs where doing.
If anything, that game is a point against your argument.

 

[Viridis00]

Viridis00 ...

what about Duke Nukem ?

Funny you bring that up, because when I was writing that post, halfway through I thought "wait, what about Duke Nukem?". I'll give you that to a degree, but after a decade and a half they just didn't give a damn in the design. Not to mention at one point one of the studios had a lawsuit against them for failure to develop, which pretty much proves they didn't care at all. Duke Nukem had red tape in the way, which is something Star Made doesn't have.

Duke Nukem is certainly the exception, not the rule. Plus, Cybertooth even mentioned that they changed hands in development. With programming there's not just one way to go about doing something, you know. Some people structure their code differently in how things are executed and how it's actually written out (indentation, comments, placement of brackets, naming conventions, etc.). Debugging is already a pain in the ass, debugging other people's stuff is even worse.

 

[der_scheme]

indentation, comments, placement of brackets, naming conventions, etc.

And the most important thing: line length. Don't make lines longer than 80 characters when editing my code. Just don't. Ever.
:P

 

[Yaodin]

And the most important thing: line length. Don't make lines longer than 80 characters when editing my code. Just don't. Ever.
:p

You're one of those people... :D Had a prof like that and it drove me nuts.

I feel a lot of this thread is stemming from people not appreciating how much work goes into programs of this scale. I just got done making an android app for an international healthcare company and I couldn't imagine taking on a project as big a starmade alone. I sympathize with schema in that there is always way more going on under the covers than appears from the outside, especially when it comes to core work. I've been in more than one meeting with the CEO of that company with a buggy, constantly crashing app (that is supposed to be stable enough to help save lives) that is 100 times better than the last meeting but he can't tell that. He had no idea we had to rewrite 4 classes just to be able to handle one little nuanced situation that could possibly cause huge issues. He wanted to see a flashy GUI that would look good for tech demos and fliers where we wanted an app that could purr through 10,000 notification in under a minute. It frustrating from both side but honestly only one side can give if either wants to see a good product. So schema, you kick ass and keep doing what you need to, only you really know what's going on and from what I've seen, I trust you to deliver.

Honestly (and this may seem a little crass), last time I checked there is no release date set so schema didn't promise you anything. If you gave him money, it's cause you like what you have so far or have faith it will get there, just have a little patience (btw, that app took 2 of us 6 months while in college).

 

[Nolorwolf]

I don't play StarMade. I did once, and again recently. And that doesn't matter, I will always be SM community member. Let me elaborate:

I find game to be too buggy, and it has a huge lack of content. On the other hand, I find Schema to be the best developer I have ever seen, and I am sure that this game will be fixed !properly!. I check for updates (like now) every few days, read every changelog, and the lack of them made me come here, but after reading all 8 pages, I can say that while OP's criticism is valid, all his questions have been answered.

I do not mind waiting another 2 years to play this game, because it will be a good game. Like I play MC for a month after every major release, I play SM until I drain it of content. When the game reaches that level, when you can let modders loose, this game will never die and never get boring, and then its up to Schema to just do code rewrites when needed and bug fixes to make it easier to make mods. And enjoy what he made.
PS: Schema, for the love of whatever, please fix every chunk error ever, this is single most annoying bug this kind of game can have

 

[Zeveryn]

Hi,

I do understand the frustration, and I'm sorry. It's not that I don't want to get out things faster. I'm working around 10 hours a day including weekends. There are no deadlines because there isn't possibly any way to work faster. Things are done when they are done. Making assumptions about implementation almost never works. This is just the nature of things.

Also I explained in the Q&A that I started to many things at once. The weapon system and the planets are not things you just throw out there without a system to back it up. There are features I can release weekly, but I'm not working on those right now, because I want to get the game into a state where all the basic systems are up to par.

Furthermore I define "alpha" with feature incomplete, which it is. I just don't want to add flashy features with nothing behind it, as that will in the long run be the downfall of any game. Rushing implementation on important gameplay aspects that are not clean and fully thought through will mess up the code so much that it become unmanageable.

As said, I'm sorry it's taken so long, but it's in the best interest of the game in the long run. It will make the implementation of other things A LOT faster.

I do all the basic work first, and then add flashy features much faster.

No offence now But. I/We (faction grunt) dont WANT or NEED new planets. WE NEED a working combat system, Faction warfare. Your game is dying and you are flashing with new planets and new weapons?


I understand that you cant just throw stuff in and it will magicly just work. But id prioritize the community If i wanted to keep it. As it is now you will soon end up in almost no community. Maybe shipbuilders. But is this pureely a shipbuild game? Alot of features has been more use to builders then to players who want to play Pvp.

New weapons? Awesome. But why? We cant utilize them to their purpose.

 

[Zeveryn]

Perhaps hiring more people to do code? Then you could actually get more work done, and less people would moan. its simple. instead of getting people to make a new site with no new features or changes of any value, get some help. there are plenty of people who would help for free in this community, i know gravypod has offered several times already

I agree. schema it might be your game, your vision, your everything. No one is going to take it away from you. But when help is offered give them a task to proove themselves to you.

Example: take this Ai code and improve it. Then Send it to me and i will check it.

I know nothing about coding, i understand how basic java work but nothing else.

But when people offer help. Take it.

 

[mindlord0013]

I check for updates (like now) every few days, read every changelog, and the lack of them made me come here, but after reading all 8 pages, I can say that while OP's criticism is valid, all his questions have been answered.

Cannot agree more. When one is exempt from criticism, they become a tyrant. Schema was given some valid criticism, and the Schine team and community at large have given valid answers with whys, becauses, and elaborations. Which only makes Starmade all the better.

 

[der_scheme]

WE NEED a working combat system, Faction warfare. Your game is dying and you are flashing with new planets and new weapons?

You want changes to the combat system and complain about a weapons update?

 

[Zeveryn]

You want changes to the combat system and complain about a weapons update?

Yes i do. Because why do We need new weapons when We cant use them properly. It will just really be useless to have them when Pvp is as it is.


What use is a siege laser beam when there is nothing to siege

 

[mindlord0013]

Yes i do. Because why do We need new weapons when We cant use them properly. It will just really be useless to have them when Pvp is as it is.


What use is a siege laser beam when there is nothing to siege

That isn't a problem with the current combat systems and new weapons update, it's a problem with the current ship building meta. People are more than capable of building giant, lumbering, floating foretresses that can be sieged and require multiple crew. It would even be easier and less time consuming than building a giant capital. Most people don't do it because it doesn't fit into their preconceived notion of what a spaceship is, they preferr to build ship-like ships.

 

[Ithirahad]

I don't play StarMade. I did once, and again recently. And that doesn't matter, I will always be SM community member. Let me elaborate:

I find game to be too buggy, and it has a huge lack of content. On the other hand, I find Schema to be the best developer I have ever seen, and I am sure that this game will be fixed !properly!. I check for updates (like now) every few days, read every changelog, and the lack of them made me come here, but after reading all 8 pages, I can say that while OP's criticism is valid, all his questions have been answered.

I do not mind waiting another 2 years to play this game, because it will be a good game. Like I play MC for a month after every major release, I play SM until I drain it of content. When the game reaches that level, when you can let modders loose, this game will never die and never get boring, and then its up to Schema to just do code rewrites when needed and bug fixes to make it easier to make mods. And enjoy what he made.
PS: Schema, for the love of whatever, please fix every chunk error ever, this is single most annoying bug this kind of game can have

I fail to see how the game is "too buggy..." About the worst things you can encounter are chunk errors (Reloading the sector fixes this, I think the command is Tab-F5 or Tab-F6 or something) and slightly silly lighting glitches (aren't that serious, but some can be fixed by switching off shadows). Aside from those, there's the occasional crash... But even multi-million-dollar MMOs that have been around for 6+ years get those.

 

[der_scheme]

In case there are still people wondering why everything is taking so long, or what it's like to be aprogrammer in general: I've opened a thread about programming, with its initial topic being the beforementioned.

And then, if you think a while about it, you will probably also understand why schema won't always implement that stuff that YOU think has to come first. Programming is frustrating and rewarding at the same time. Being stuck for weeks makes aggressive, but finally solving your problem is a feeling you won't get anywhere else. That's why we sometimes implement stuff that is fun to implement first. And most of the time it's stuff that will work your brain so hard you can't even describe it.

 

[MrFURB]

No offence now But. I/We (faction grunt) dont WANT or NEED new planets. WE NEED a working combat system, Faction warfare. Your game is dying and you are flashing with new planets and new weapons?


I understand that you cant just throw stuff in and it will magicly just work. But id prioritize the community If i wanted to keep it. As it is now you will soon end up in almost no community. Maybe shipbuilders. But is this pureely a shipbuild game? Alot of features has been more use to builders then to players who want to play Pvp.

New weapons? Awesome. But why? We cant utilize them to their purpose.

I believe that I have already stated that Schema is working on a 'meaningful experience', and that attempting to put in that 'meaningful experience' without first bringing the mechanics behind it into line and providing the framework for basing those mechanics off of will lead to a failure of a patch job that doesn't actually solve any problems rather than attempts to point people away from them.

With a bit of patience, you'll make it through this alpha and the 'dark days' shall be over in a flash of brilliant new features and purpose. Until then, enjoy this work in progress and be sure to continue letting us know what you think so that folks know where public opinion lies and we all can help take Starmade where it belongs.

I've also noticed a rather worrying trend lately of people blaming the developers of being disconnected with the community. Just the other day chat was flooded by two folks complaining that Schema was working on 'silly little particle effects and round planets' instead of deep and meaningful combat and faction stuff.
To clear that up, let me explain a few things I think that a lot of people have missed.
He is working on that.
It would be impossible to solve the problems affecting the vocal minority of faction-based players without going through the necessary steps in development. Applying a new factions system when we still have the old economy, combat, control, universe generation, factory, and AI system wouldn't work. It'd be a poorly done patch job that wouldn't solve the underlying issues as much as paint over it with a few new features that still utilize older game mechanics that no longer fit in the game.
Schema is working on your faction system because the faction system is a big part of the game and he's working on the game.
If you want to help out and make the process go by faster, your efforts would be much better spent providing feedback and suggestions.

 

[Zeveryn]

That isn't a problem with the current combat systems and new weapons update, it's a problem with the current ship building meta. People are more than capable of building giant, lumbering, floating foretresses that can be sieged and require multiple crew. It would even be easier and less time consuming than building a giant capital. Most people don't do it because it doesn't fit into their preconceived notion of what a spaceship is, they preferr to build ship-like ships.

Well. if this fortress you are describing decide to just fly away with the same agility as any other ship in 149 km/h. well hallelujha.

there is nothing in the game for the PvPers.. not even a bounty system.. sure u can have one on another page.. But then it requires everyone to go on it. etc, People are lazy.