[Discussion] Tired of hearing "soon"? Thoughts on the Q&A

[Neon_42]

I know I'm not alone in this, and I think it needs to be addressed. The community for this game is actively shrinking, or maybe just stagnant. To put a few numbers to this. Space Engineers had a peak number of players around 7,000 people around the time of this post. I doubt Starmade has been so lucky. The SE subreddit has about 6000 readers while the SM subreddit has half that amount. I know during the Q&A that the devs did not feel a need to compete with SE, but this is a naive notion. Your customers clearly don't see it that way. They see these two games as very similar, and if one doesn't offer the right experience it is trivial to jump ship. If the end goal is to make a good game that will get played, then having your customers taken away by a similar game is bad.

It is lazy to think that a game will get played just because it has a good premise. The game needs to be developed, it needs to meet the standards of the community, and it needs to be done in a timely manner . So far SM has not done these things. Doors still 'degroup', severs get corrupted, weapons fail to damage blocks, ships randomly teleport, the game is unbalanced, and all the anticipated features have all gone the way of a George RR Martin novel being "on the way". The game has been in alpha for more than two years. two years and the game is sort of working. If you think that the majority of people care about the difficulties that come with bug fixing and engine development then maybe game design is clearly not for you. Customers expect a game that works, this is the bare minimum of standards. It is the flashy bits that draw people in and keep them playing. So far the two things that SM has working for it are an open PvP universe, and the capacity to build mega ships.

This brings me to some general thoughts on the most recent Q&A. There was absolutely zero constructive criticism. How did the mushroom fleet guys get by without showing any sort of concern!? All i heard was "that's interesting" or "I agree with that". What a complete waste of time. We know what features are planned, and when we asked when they were coming we got a very loud "I DON'T KNOW". If there are zero deadlines, that are then met, all we have are empty promises. Another confusing bit is that the game in in alpha, but the devs don't really treat it that way. There is a great big concern about stuff being backwards compatible. Why? If this is alpha why do you care? Let stuff break, fix it and make it better. Truthfully I don't think this game is in alpha based on the way the devs treat it. It seems that the word alpha is only used as a convenient excuse for when something breaks or isn't finished.

I hope when you read this you do not mistake it for a malicious attack. I wish only convey my frustration with the progress being made, and I am merely concerned about the future of the game. I believe this game has the potential to be the best space builder out there, but it has yet to prove it. What is more, with SE releasing updates weekly It is getting hard to justify playing SM.

Times are bad when the devs joke about the frequency of updates "Soon(TM)"

 

[schema]

Hi,

I do understand the frustration, and I'm sorry. It's not that I don't want to get out things faster. I'm working around 10 hours a day including weekends. There are no deadlines because there isn't possibly any way to work faster. Things are done when they are done. Making assumptions about implementation almost never works. This is just the nature of things.

Also I explained in the Q&A that I started to many things at once. The weapon system and the planets are not things you just throw out there without a system to back it up. There are features I can release weekly, but I'm not working on those right now, because I want to get the game into a state where all the basic systems are up to par.

Furthermore I define "alpha" with feature incomplete, which it is. I just don't want to add flashy features with nothing behind it, as that will in the long run be the downfall of any game. Rushing implementation on important gameplay aspects that are not clean and fully thought through will mess up the code so much that it become unmanageable.

As said, I'm sorry it's taken so long, but it's in the best interest of the game in the long run. It will make the implementation of other things A LOT faster.

I do all the basic work first, and then add flashy features much faster.

 

[SmilingDemon]

Neon_42 ... or maybe this early access (or what ever you may call it) isn´t the right thing for you ? so basically check the games progress every half year and ignore it until you find it proper for your entertainment! ... might be better for your bloodpressure

schema ... i think following the development process , changes and new ideas is very entertaining! ... Mach mal ruhig weiter so, Ich finde sieht gut aus!

 

[MrFURB]

I've recognized multiple things that I've thought were odd in the OP.

The most important is the strange comparisons being drawn between Starmade and Space Engineers. Having played both of them, I notice that they share only a setting and an open environment.
Space Engineers takes after modern space sims and takes their nitty-gritty, almost role-play level of realism and attention to detail and applies that to an open environment with the only objective being to survive. That combined feelings of helplessness against the natural forces at work against you and the human drive to conquer them in the name of survival that made Gravity the movie it is, is what I feel like Keen software is after with their game.
Starmade doesn't ground it's mechanics in realism as much as it does in fun and the different ways that fun is achieved. It's not going to have the complexity that Space Engineers does. Complexity is not even one of the goals as far as I know. What Starmade does do is keep things open and inviting for players to do what they want with the systems in place. Want to rule a mighty empire conquering a thousand sectors and defending vital supply lanes with fleets of breadnoughts? Sure, you can do that. Want to work as a contracted ship designer, taking odd jobs to make both beautiful and powerful fighters, frigates, and freighters? Sure, you can do that too. Want to pilot? Mod? Want to make music? Want to make computers? Want to start a zoo? Want to gracefully glide across the universe on the back of a Nassian Space Whale? Screw the limits, you can do that, and we're making the doing fun.
That's one thing that Space Engineers dares not tackle due to the limitations in hardware, software, and design that they've set themselves up with as soon as the project began. Starmade? We've got our own engine that is upgraded alongside the game. We've got a team of developers dedicated heart and soul to Starmade not because there's money involved, but because they love Starmade.
Not that money isn't within the vision, of course, but if you make a good game people will come and money will follow, naturally. There's just no long-term plus side to trying to advertise like all the other alpha games. I'd rather Schema create the next big hit rather than sell the game early and get negative rep for an incomplete product, hurting it's future more so than simply creating it in peace and then selling an amazing game when it's ready to actually be sold. As opposed to Space Engineers.
I've got no beef against SE though. Space Engineers does what it's advertised so far. Engineers in space. It's a fun game, albeit extremely buggy, resource intensive, and I could only spend a few minutes on it at a time before running out of things to do/blow up. Here's to hoping Keen software keeps updating it and turns it into one heck of a game.
Starmade and Space Engineers have about as much in common as Minecraft and Starmade do. Saying they are directly in competition with each other is untrue. Different goals, different games. I try to enjoy both.

I've also noticed a rather worrying trend lately of people blaming the developers of being disconnected with the community. Just the other day chat was flooded by two folks complaining that Schema was working on 'silly little particle effects and round planets' instead of deep and meaningful combat and faction stuff.
To clear that up, let me explain a few things I think that a lot of people have missed.
He is working on that.
It would be impossible to solve the problems affecting the vocal minority of faction-based players without going through the necessary steps in development. Applying a new factions system when we still have the old economy, combat, control, universe generation, factory, and AI system wouldn't work. It'd be a poorly done patch job that wouldn't solve the underlying issues as much as paint over it with a few new features that still utilize older game mechanics that no longer fit in the game.
Schema is working on your faction system because the faction system is a big part of the game and he's working on the game.
If you want to help out and make the process go by faster, your efforts would be much better spent providing feedback and suggestions.

This brings me to some general thoughts on the most recent Q&A. There was absolutely zero constructive criticism. How did the mushroom fleet guys get by without showing any sort of concern!? All i heard was "that's interesting" or "I agree with that". What a complete waste of time.

I'll agree with you here, although I dislike that you're negative attitude is drenching the text in what I'm sure is completely unwanted contempt of those on the Q&A. I'm sure you don't mean to be rude to them.
Constructive criticism is the difference between a game that is awesome for one person and a game that is awesome for everyone, and a lack of such in a public communication channel can give off the impression that the opinions being shown have been 'bought out' or are otherwise biased. I'd actually make it a point to speak your mind during these Q&As in the hopes that we can grab a few cool ideas we haven't thought about or revise systems as we're discussing them. Just make sure that these aren't interrupting the flow of the session. (I have a feeling I just made the next Q&A session last an additional 4 hours with everyone yelling 'But what about...? Oh I'm so sorry Cal, haha.)

 

[SmilingDemon]

snip ... breadnoughts ... snip

how are those baked ?? ...


i am so sorry .. i couldn´t resist ... i am weak i know

 

[Neon_42]

schema ... I appreciate your response, and you stick to your guns I'll give you that. I'm still not really satisfied by the answers, more "soon" talk, but I'll deal. I think you understand that "a LOT faster" is an empty phrase but it is probably for the best because you simply don't know. In reality that's fine, but unsatisfying.

I have more questions now though. I suppose it can be condensed down to two questions. It has taken more than 2 years to get this "basic work" done, and It sounds like it will take longer. Do you think that the community expects too much from you, and what do you think is appropriate to expect from a situation like this?

SmilingDemon ... Taking a break doesn't help anybody in this case. If I take a break SM looses another player and the world still goes around. I mean to bring to light some of these issues that I think many people feel are not being addressed. What I fear is the loss of the game due to lack of interest. Schema is a smart man. He can take some criticism and he will act appropriately.

MrFURB ... I don't mean to be rude to be sure. I have a very low tolerance to empty conversation though. I guess that showed through a tad. As I said I to Demon, I don't think I'm alone in thinking that the community feels a bit neglected. I too have played SE and SM. To me the differences are minuscule. Both games are in Alpha, and the end result is too far off to see. There is one point you bring up that I think needs to be addressed, and that is this notion of " but if you make a good game people will come and money will follow, naturally". This is so very not true. There are many games in the world that are great games, but don't get played and don't get their deserved fame. For example Psychonauts. It's one of the highest rated games on Steam. Did not release well and wet without notice for about a decade. I do not want SM to go this route. I like this game and I intend to bring to light these issues.

 

[Tomino_sama]

SE is on Steam, Starmade is not. Yet.

Thanks for coming.

 

[Puck]

I agree with what you said about Mushroom Fleet.. I am not offending them or judging, but I think I hear "that's interesting, that's cool" too much when watching their videos (especially ship reviews)

 

[Neon_42]

MrFURB ... I also want to talk about this other thing you mentioned.

I've also noticed a rather worrying trend lately of people blaming the developers of being disconnected with the community. Just the other day chat was flooded by two folks complaining that Schema was working on 'silly little particle effects and round planets' instead of deep and meaningful combat and faction stuff.

This is the exact problem I am talking about. People feel neglected. Regardless of weather or not this is true the do feel this way. There is little evidence to support the contrary too. You say they are working on that, but there have been no status updates on that particular topic yet. Just the ideas thrown around in the Q&As. You must understand that people are not easily satisfied by idle talk. It serves to get us excited but when that isn't answered people get grumpy. Lastly, i quote:

If you want to help out and make the process go by faster, your efforts would be much better spent providing feedback and suggestions

. This is exactly what I have just done. Provided feed back. It isn't pretty, and it isn't praise, but it is feed back. I will provide praise, if that is what you mean, when it is warranted. It is difficult to provide feed back on things that don't exist yet too.

Tomino_sama

SE is on Steam, Starmade is not. Yet.

Thanks for coming.

If you're refering to the popularity of the games, I'm not arguing that being on Steam helps. But if we are operating off the assumption that a good game get's played, and if SM is indeed better than SE. Then why would the medium matter?

 

[yelby]

Hi,

I do understand the frustration, and I'm sorry. It's not that I don't want to get out things faster. I'm working around 10 hours a day including weekends. There are no deadlines because there isn't possibly any way to work faster. Things are done when they are done. Making assumptions about implementation almost never works. This is just the nature of things.

Also I explained in the Q&A that I started to many things at once. The weapon system and the planets are not things you just throw out there without a system to back it up. There are features I can release weekly, but I'm not working on those right now, because I want to get the game into a state where all the basic systems are up to par.

Furthermore I define "alpha" with feature incomplete, which it is. I just don't want to add flashy features with nothing behind it, as that will in the long run be the downfall of any game. Rushing implementation on important gameplay aspects that are not clean and fully thought through will mess up the code so much that it become unmanageable.

As said, I'm sorry it's taken so long, but it's in the best interest of the game in the long run. It will make the implementation of other things A LOT faster.

I do all the basic work first, and then add flashy features much faster.

Schema = Pro

 

[schema]

Neon_42 The problem in general in developing any kind of software is that empty phrases have to be used. The alternative would be saying nothing at all. Saying "this will take exactly 2 weeks to do" is something that in almost all cases turns out to be a lie. And I don't want to lie. Prospecting times in developing is one of the hardest things to do. Bigger companies put a lot of resources in doing only that.

The basic work is necessary. If you ever work on a program with more then 100k lines of code, you will notice that a program can very quickly degrade in quality when the necessary ground work isn't done. And the people doing that in companies are also most likely never thanked for doing that, as the result is not visible. But the result is the key difference of still being able to develop on the same code base. You see a lot of software that after time just can't really continue as the codebase basically needs a complete redesign to continue efficiently.

I do not generalize the community. The problem is rather, that different groups have a different focus. When I do bug-fixes, some complain that there are no new features, when I do features, people complain, that bugs aren't fixed yet. Do i do core-work, both groups complain ^^

But in terms of "basic work taking longer". I'm now at a point where my basic milestones are almost completed. So the work on the core will become less and less. And that already started with the last release.

But there are still features that take longer. For example, the new weapon system basically introduces technically over 64 weapons, plus new ways to customize salvage beams, etc. Additionally, all of those values are now completely moddable with a simple configuration. I could have just gone the fast way and release each weapon individually each week, while implementing them separately. But that would mess up the code for balancing and for future features. Because of that I wanted to do an automated system that has as few points of failure as possible, and can be changed as efficient as possible.

 

[Daffor]

Deadlines are arbitraty lines drawn into water. It's better to say it'll be done when it's done than making empty promises and rushing to slap together something seemingly fitting to the original parameters.

Schema is doing an incredible creative and technical performance with the game and in my opinion has earned our trust with earlier releases to deliver quality content in the future.

If that doesn't exactly match what each of us has in our head at this time is irrelevant, trust that he'll do his best to make the game as good as he possibly can and enjoy the results and all we can do with them.

 

[Firestorm29]

If you're refering to the popularity of the games, I'm not arguing that being on Steam helps. But if we are operating off the assumption that a good game get's played, and if SM is indeed better than SE. Then why would the medium matter?

It helps spread the work faster. I think right now all that gets Starmade going is word of mouth. Having a note on stream of a new game being available would help with that much more than word of mouth, unless that word comes from someone like Pewdiepie or TotalBiscuit.

Personally, I actually appreciate the work that's done keeping things backwards compatible, because I know that I can start a large project like a battlecruiser I want to build, and know for the most part the thing will be functional now that the major work was done on things like the blockID re-work. I think that's one of the things that keeps the community together like it is, because I'd imagine there'd be alot more groups that would just drop the game like the Vaygr did when their larger ships weren't usable if the engine was in a state of flux like you suggested in the OP.

 

[schema]

One thing to add about the "that's interesting" phrase. Please keep in mind that tomino and the mushroomfleet are not professional interviewers. They are people helping out for free, and I'm very thankful for that. And I'm also not very good in interviews either explaining things. I often get into technical details, or things they can't possibly be knowing. The interview already took 4-5 hours I think. If each question had to be fully discussed, we would have probably taken twice as long.

 

[Neon_42]

schema ... I enjoyed that response very much, thank you. It made sense and was fairly thorough. The balance is hard to achieve. I understand your position, and the underlying message is be patient, I know. People will forever be unsatisfied by vague answers. I understand the reason for it, believe me I do, but the reason does not change that it is still vague and it is still unsatisfying. Given enough empty answers people get grumpy. Given little apparent progress towards whatever goal is also frustrating. This is the world we live in. There is no changing that. If this is the best we've got we'll deal, but you're gonna lose people along the way if they feel neglected. And I think that people feel neglected.

As far as Tomino and Mushroomfleet goes, it is obviously free help. I'm sure they're nice people, but maybe its time to think on getting some better PR?

 

[Firestorm29]

As far as Tomino and Mushroomfleet goes, it is obviously free help. I'm sure they're nice people, but maybe its time to think on getting some better PR?

I think it might be better to maybe give MushroomFleet some tips on how to interview better. It's more that those guys know the game pretty well and would be able to ask better response questions than a pro interviewer who probably wouldn't know to ask things like power conduits for backup power.

 

[schema]

Neon_42 PR doesn't come cheap. But that is not they only reason. With mushroom fleet I see that they play the game a lot, and they are very committed. That's what makes them authentic. If you don't like empty phrases, professional PR is pretty much 99% that (just in much better wording and more hype).

 

[Neon_42]

schema... I didn't say professional PR. I said better PR. Most people could care less about what you pay for. I like Firestorm29 's idea of having them learn to give better interviews. There is free information available. Keeping Mushroomfleet is probably the best course of action as they are already well known in the community. Maybe try coursera? There are free college courses available. They might have something in rhetoric or journalism.

 

[Firestorm29]

schema... I didn't say professional PR. I said better PR. Most people could care less about what you pay for. I like Firestorm29 's idea of having them learn to give better interviews. There is free information available. Keeping Mushroomfleet is probably the best course of action as they are already well known in the community. Maybe try coursera? There are free college courses available. They might have something in rhetoric or journalism.

Something I should have typed to is and forgot to is, what are you expecting from MushroomFleet as interviewers? I mean coursera a nice thought, but knowing what you want from them might be more useful.

 

[Neon_42]

Firestorm29 schema ... I don't expect the kind of journalism that will get them a Nobel prize, but I expect responses that are well thought out, not simple agreement. I expect questions to be screened appropriately(which is done for the most part), and I expect questions to be asked in such a manner that the warrant discussion and not one stop answers. Q&As should be more like discussions not a list of questions where the devs can go though and answer them in a few sentences and then off to the next question. There may be some of that, but it should be minimal.