Transporters: no transport on same entity

[Thalanor]

Easy solutions here.
1: Transporters are extremely easily jammed or cannot function when the ship is under a certain power percentage, or something, thus requiring that if you have NPC crew it's a very good idea to have manually walkable access hallways to their stations, lest they be unable to reach their destination otherwise in combat. Make up for this by making crew bonuses noticeably outweigh the space lost in system blocks by making an interior in the first place.

2: Hostile astronauts can use your transporters if they find them, but you can't transport directly into enemy ships from your own ship while your shields are up. If you have an "unboardable" ship that consists of a transporter outside and a tiny core room with a transporter inside, you're giving the enemy player the keys to your core this way.

Both of these in conjunction would go a long way towards estabilishing a tradeoff.

As a means of winning, I have little problem with it. What I have a problem with is the fact the only reasons to do it are to actively flaunt the fact you just stole someone's stuff, or because you couldn't win in a fair fight ship to ship.

It is much easier to win a ship battle than it is to board a ship (before the update already). Boarding is an extremely rare, difficult to pull off means of attack. It is in fact officially supported by a series of planned additions, including the ones we already got in an earlier update (hook and torch, build inhibitor). It certainly would not be if it was griefing.

On the topic of Boarding.
Boarding is a legitimate strategy because it is extremely easy to counter. If you get boarded, then there are a few dozen ways to get rid of those pesky gnats. Internal damage pulses, beam hallways of death that you can turn off and on, antipersonnel turrets, ten meter thick blast doors with even thicker armor around them, basic hallway and fortification design to give your own astronauts an advantage (ie: access hallway to your core room is a 1 block wide hallway, so they can't dodge, but you have corners to hide around while your sniper rifle reloads)

This is also why boarding is not even remotely viable in competitive play, much less at risk for being a means of griefing.

 

[Lecic]

I just see no value in it as a tactic except to steal someone else's ship.

You see no value in a tactic that gives the full resources that went into building someone's ship instead of blowing up 40-50% of it first? That allows you to take an enemy's blueprint, examine it, and learn how to counter them better?

just to fly it around for yourself?

HAH. Now, I can't speak for most boarders, but... my faction tends to break down the (usually very poorly built) ships we capture for parts for our own ships.

 

[Awdred]

Easy solutions here.

1: Transporters are extremely easily jammed or cannot function when the ship is under a certain power percentage, or something, thus requiring that if you have NPC crew it's a very good idea to have manually walkable access hallways to their stations, lest they be unable to reach their destination otherwise in combat. Make up for this by making crew bonuses noticeably outweigh the space lost in system blocks by making an interior in the first place.

2: Hostile astronauts can use your transporters if they find them, but you can't transport directly into enemy ships from your own ship while your shields are up. If you have an "unboardable" ship that consists of a transporter outside and a tiny core room with a transporter inside, you're giving the enemy player the keys to your core this way.

Hostile astronauts should in no way be able to use your transporters, unless they are set to public, that would ruin the point of the faction permission feature.

 

[Dire Venom]

Hostile astronauts should in no way be able to use your transporters, unless they are set to public, that would ruin the point of the faction permission feature.

If they can't get acess to them then no problem.
Can you think of a realistic scenario where a player can break into your ship???
If your flying it around, no way.
Only case would be if you leave it drifting about, but then it desrvese to get stolen : )

 

[Awdred]

If they can't get acess to them then no problem.
Can you think of a realistic scenario where a player can break into your ship???
If your flying it around, no way.
Only case would be if you leave it drifting about, but then it desrvese to get stolen : )

Once upon a time I built a ship. Then I put a faction module on so you can't steal it.

 

[Dire Venom]

Once upon a time I built a ship. Then I put a faction module on so you can't steal it.

The only way to keep ships safe is to dock them when not in use : )
All you need to do is find the faction modual, torch it then the ship is yours :D

 

[Awdred]

The only way to keep ships safe is to dock them when not in use : )
All you need to do is find the faction modual, torch it then the ship is yours :D

True. Guard it with faction permission doors. Torch through them. Man, the torch is powerful.

 

[Dire Venom]

True. Guard it with faction permission doors. Torch through them. Man, the torch is powerful.

The best way to hide the faction modual is to hide it deep within the ships systems surrounded by blocks.
That way the ONLY way to steal or take over the ship is to blast it to pieces :P
[DOUBLEPOST=1446602897,1446602822][/DOUBLEPOST]Btw there ares ways to teleport between shisp without either one having to drop shields
Just saying'

 

[Keptick]

If these two things were done I'd be happy:
1) The ability to hack enemy transporters to gain acess to their internal ship transporter system. This would obviously not be instantaneous and would require time. Could only be done directly on the terminal, not remotely (leaving the person vulnerable to defenses). It would allow boarders (or tourists, whatever) to use the "hacked" transporter, however, only transporters on the same entity would be available destinations.

2) Charge up and cool down times on transporters, could depend on distance.

Everything needs a pro and con. Right now transporters offer an overwhelming amount of pros and 0 cons. That's the general definition of overpowered. Remember, we got transporters two days ago, so I'm pretty sure that the universe wouldn't explode if their god-like capabilities were toned down a little.

 

[Gunmetalmonk]

You know, what this forum really needs is way to for the author of a post to make a quotation of their own post either all or nothing. Cause this thread is slipping into "out of context" territory.

 

[Keptick]

Nah, it boils down to "I don't want to spend 10 minutes walking across my station just to manufacture a computer block, and then walk 10 minutes back to the ship I wanted to put it on."

You know, same reason we have grav tubes and rail elevators, because there is a difference in having a nice stroll to look at the pretty things, and having to trudge across town every time you want a coke.

Translation:
"I'm lazy and can't build shuttles, rail trains, gravity tubes, elevators, or use a core. And instead want admin level teleportation with zero risk involved that conveniently takes 10 seconds to set up and makes my ship invulnerable to the hardest ship killing method. All hail homebase hugging and down with PvP (aka: griefing)"

See? I can make "interpretations" too

 

[Sha3es]

... Got caught up in reading the thread since I had last seen it... appears that Keptick beat me to the conclusion I have just made... I really agree with his laziness is not an excuse to be handed god powers argument.

 

[Dellexe]

Translation:
"I'm lazy and can't build shuttles, rail trains, gravity tubes, elevators, or use a core. And instead want admin level teleportation with zero risk involved that conveniently takes 10 seconds to set up and makes my ship invulnerable to the hardest ship killing method. All hail homebase hugging and down with PvP (aka: griefing)"

See? I can make "interpretations" too

So according to you, internal transporters are:
-Admin level teleportation (except... you know... restricted between just a few points... that requires you to be outside of your core and vulnerable...)
-Zero risk involved (What exactly do you mean by this? Zero risk for the ship owner moving around their ship, or zero risk of the ship being boarded?)
-Conveniently takes 10 seconds to set up (Oh hey, a legitimate complaint. But it's also very easy to set up gravity tubes, or extremely simple rail elevator systems [though those are less reliable]. A gravity tube can just be a 1x1 tube that takes the player from one side of the ship to the other in seconds. But just as gravity tubes and simple elevators are "legitimate" because they generally have more RP space/detail to them, the same can be done with transporter pads. A 1x1 gravity tube and a 1 pad transporter station are almost exactly the same. Eliminating one would require eliminating the other, so let's get rid of gravity modules on ships, or grievously nerf them.)
-Makes my ship invulnerable to the hardest ship killing method (You mean like timed pulses, filling all your hallways/tubes with blast doors, death laser traps, and gravity traps? Those all are just as tough obstacles as having separate rooms are, and allowing boarders to "hack" or just straight be able to access internal transporter networks would remedy this.)

There's no need to screw over either PvP or RP/Convenience. This issue can be resolved without damaging either side. Keep the discussion sensible and focused on what can be done to resolve the issue. It's devolved into "I don't like your opinion! Your opinion isn't worth the same as mine!"

My ideas for solutions:
Allow boarders to access internal teleportation networks without needing faction access
Internal teleportation has a reasonable energy cost/charge time/cooldown time.
Allow a HUD option to "Show Location of Teleport Pads" when attached to an entity. This would allow people with the cutting tool to know where rooms are inside of ship.

What are the other issues people have with this on BOTH sides of the coin?

 

[Jumper11550]

If these two things were done I'd be happy:
1) The ability to hack enemy transporters to gain acess to their internal ship transporter system. This would obviously not be instantaneous and would require time. Could only be done directly on the terminal, not remotely (leaving the person vulnerable to defenses). It would allow boarders (or tourists, whatever) to use the "hacked" transporter, however, only transporters on the same entity would be available destinations.

2) Charge up and cool down times on transporters, could depend on distance.

Everything needs a pro and con. Right now transporters offer an overwhelming amount of pros and 0 cons. That's the general definition of overpowered. Remember, we got transporters two days ago, so I'm pretty sure that the universe wouldn't explode if their god-like capabilities were toned down a little.

I would totally be happy with these two measures put in place (although much prefer the cool down on the system as compared to the charge up, but really that's just equivalent to a shorter charge up time).

Additionally I'd like to say that an alternative is once quarters are introduced restrict transporters to existing in a section of the ship established as a quarter. Given that being able to get a lock on transporters inside a quarter in order to board through them is a planned thing (at least tentatively) this turns transporters into a boarding neutral (or pro depending on what quarter you happen to get a lock on) vs a con.

 

[Keptick]

So according to you, internal transporters are:

-Admin level teleportation (except... you know... restricted between just a few points... that requires you to be outside of your core and vulnerable...)

-Zero risk involved (What exactly do you mean by this? Zero risk for the ship owner moving around their ship, or zero risk of the ship being boarded?)

-Conveniently takes 10 seconds to set up (Oh hey, a legitimate complaint. But it's also very easy to set up gravity tubes, or extremely simple rail elevator systems [though those are less reliable]. A gravity tube can just be a 1x1 tube that takes the player from one side of the ship to the other in seconds. But just as gravity tubes and simple elevators are "legitimate" because they generally have more RP space/detail to them, the same can be done with transporter pads. A 1x1 gravity tube and a 1 pad transporter station are almost exactly the same. Eliminating one would require eliminating the other, so let's get rid of gravity modules on ships, or grievously nerf them.)

-Makes my ship invulnerable to the hardest ship killing method (You mean like timed pulses, filling all your hallways/tubes with blast doors, death laser traps, and gravity traps? Those all are just as tough obstacles as having separate rooms are, and allowing boarders to "hack" or just straight be able to access internal transporter networks would remedy this.)


There's no need to screw over either PvP or RP/Convenience. This issue can be resolved without damaging either side. Keep the discussion sensible and focused on what can be done to resolve the issue. It's devolved into "I don't like your opinion! Your opinion isn't worth the same as mine!"


My ideas for solutions:

Allow boarders to access internal teleportation networks without needing faction access

Internal teleportation has a reasonable energy cost/charge time/cooldown time.

Allow a HUD option to "Show Location of Teleport Pads" when attached to an entity. This would allow people with the cutting tool to know where rooms are inside of ship.


What are the other issues people have with this on BOTH sides of the coin?

I was exagerating and being sarcastic, basically replicating the sort of mindset Edymnomion has been showing so far to demonstrate, as you said, how stupid that kind of argumentation is.


My honest opinion? I just think that it makes things too easy in it's current state. As you said, a 1x1 grav tube takes no time to instal, but the transporter is still just better (faster) with no downside. A cooldown and short charge up time would fix that tbh.

My only concern is that people will complain about a change after getting accustomed to the easy to use instant teleport, which is why I think they should've been balanced out before release. Too late for that anyways... Just look at the responses to a suggested change, not even two days in after the update, people already can't live without the things :p

Edit: Just talked with the devs, balance is planned. Can't really tell any specifics but most of the concerns in this thread (and OP) will be adressed in due time. And no, it won't make transporters useless.

 

[alterintel]

Here's my two cents:
Is the big concern here making stealing easier by nerfing transporters? (and yes I know I'm biased. Who isn't?)
There's also a lot of talk about risk vs OP
It sounds to me like some people are arguing that since it's difficult and risky to try to steal a ship, that it's a perfectly legitimate strategy.

It's a fair mechanic- if I can manage to take out your ship with the lowest DPS weapon in the game while using the lowest health of any combat-oriented object in the game, I DESERVE your ship.

Lecic I'm not trying to pick on you, it's just that you summed up the idea very well

Well the definition of fair is the opposite of stealing.
But what about the risk vs reward?
If you try to steal somebody's ship, you risk what exactly? a trip to the undeathinator? big whoop.
if you succeed, you've just stolen a lot of time, effort, and resources that some poor guy put into his ship. And the only cost to the thief is time.
and if the blue print isn't available to the public, you've just stolen his secrets as well.

Stealing is not cool, and by definition is not fair or legitimate. There's a reason why it's considered taboo by literally every culture on the planet.
and if transporters can make it a bit more fair for people to keep their own ships, then I'm all for it.

If a player death could be made just as costly as the loss of a ship, then that would go along way towards making boarding parties a little less OP.

I still love you guys, that's just my opinion

 

[Lecic]

If you try to steal somebody's ship, you risk what exactly? a trip to the undeathinator? big whoop.

Depending on if the server has "Drop items on death" enabled, you could be losing quite a lot of stuff. 1-3 grapplers, laser pistol, up to 4 torches, build inhibitor, multiple sniper rifles/rocket launchers, plus 10% of your credits. Boarding gear ain't cheap.

 

[alterintel]

Depending on if the server has "Drop items on death" enabled, you could be losing quite a lot of stuff. 1-3 grapplers, laser pistol, up to 4 torches, build inhibitor, multiple sniper rifles/rocket launchers, plus 10% of your credits. Boarding gear ain't cheap.

Thanks Lecic,
I think maybe the core of this discussion isn't about transporters at all, but at the cost of stealing a ship. Lets make it cost a little more to "try" to steal a ship. Maybe a cost to faction points or political points, or something. I don't know, I just think there should be a little more risk to trying to steal a ship.

But maybe it's not about stealing a ship at all. Maybe people are just looking for that first person shooter experience. Could you still get that same experience if you didn't steal the ship, but instead just blew it up or something?

 

[Master_Artificer]

Oh my god the amount of bitching. Sorry, but I had to skip pages 3-6, I couldn't bear to read it all in one setting.

Personally, I feel like it isn't a substantial issue. HOWEVER, I do see the legitimate concerns from the anti-teleporter camp.

So, without further adieu, some adjustments:

• Teleporter Pads cannot be placed within 100 blocks of each-other. Config adjustable of course, just throwing that number out their as a ballpark figure. "Temporal Interferance" or some other fluff reason would do well to explain it, and would limit teleporters to be more like junction 'gates'. You tp to the front/middle/rear of the ship, and then walk/take the tram to any place in-between. I guess you could get around this by having docked entities to your ship with teleporters...

• Building Jammers could be renamed to just "Jammers" and disable any teleporter in proximity to the player. Or you could "Use" the jammer on the teleporter blocks to disable it for an amount of time (Like 90 seconds) or until the ship is rebooted

And not to mention, having just one Beam+Cannon+Overdrive interior turret will kill any and all boarders if you put any thought into interior design. Or it that is to complicated, having area trigger damage pulses is also fun, easy, and simple.

 

[Awdred]

I was exagerating and being sarcastic, basically replicating the sort of mindset Edymnomion has been showing so far to demonstrate, as you said, how stupid that kind of argumentation is.


My honest opinion? I just think that it makes things too easy in it's current state. As you said, a 1x1 grav tube takes no time to instal, but the transporter is still just better (faster) with no downside. A cooldown and short charge up time would fix that tbh.

My only concern is that people will complain about a change after getting accustomed to the easy to use instant teleport, which is why I think they should've been balanced out before release. Too late for that anyways... Just look at the responses to a suggested change, not even two days in after the update, people already can't live without the things :p

Edit: Just talked with the devs, balance is planned. Can't really tell any specifics but most of the concerns in this thread (and OP) will be adressed in due time. And no, it won't make transporters useless.

A cool down would make total sense, or even make you use a faction-permission module for faction only use, therefore, boarders can torch it. Even if you only use teleporters to move around the ship, torching one computer can isolate the core, rendering the ship useless, unless the owner has a build block on them. I do realize that that's assuming no one is in the core.