Brainstorm This #The Solution to Economy - The Exchange

[Valck]

Fixing shops will not fix the economy nor add play value to the game. Players make the economy, ripping that from the players and giving it to an NPC which can not be haggled takes away from player interaction. It takes away mining corps, logistics corps, traders who buy low and sell high, security contractors who are paid to protect shipments etc.

Fixing the shop will only add reliance on servers not players and resource rarity. It does nothing in the means of creating roleplay and functionality.

I disagree, player-owned shops may very well be the key to all this.

Suppose all player-owned shops, and their goods, were registered centrally. Then suppose the quest system was implemented, and players could request something to the effect of "Buy this much of that there, sell it to me here". Wouldn't this allow for exactly the kind of trading you suggest?

I think you're both right.

Shops are undeniably broken at the moment, however enhancing them to tie into a bazaar system is another thing and not what I'd call simply fixing them. Yet without some enhancement like that, I think it's difficult for any meaningful trade to develop.

The shops as they are designed right now (even if they were working as intended) are too limited in scope to allow a decentralised player-run economy to flourish; currently only the Trading Guild has the grand picture of which of their own shops needs what restock, but players lack the necessary communications and analysis tools for that.

The idea of some kind of a stock exchange absolutely makes sense from my point of view. I don't know whether I'd want it to have global scope, ideally I think there should be some kind of hierarchy involved, allowing to have different price ranges across different regions, but on the other hand that may be a bit too involved.

 

[Rezerian]

Thank you valck you said it better than I could have.

Essentially the only way to know if someone is selling items or has a shop is by spamming chat. Even then this is not an on demand kind of thing.

A player must go all the way to these 6 different shops (if 6 different players are making the item needed in the quantities needed) whereas the exchange you simply...put in the amount of blocks you want to buy for the price you want to buy, the exchange then checks all the sources of that block and buys them until it reaches the amount you needed. Dispersing all those credits to the individual owners of the resource sold.

Rather than flooding chat trying to find the same thing, you have the game work for you to create an economy.

 

[Rezerian]

So have the devs read this yet?

 

[MacThule]

Someone has read it. They won't comment.

I've been nagging them to fix the two tiny, simple-as-hell bugs with shops for like a year now. They never comment on trade/economic issues.

There's a separate setting button for Buy price and Sell price, but they don't stay different if you set them different. How hard is that to fix from a coding perspective? Seems like very straightforward troubleshooting.

Personally, I don't think it's that they don't care about the economy (although letting it languish under a handful of small, crippling bugs FOR OVER A YEAR makes it feel that way sometimes... ). I think it's that they've already got a grand plan in mind, one into which the economy fits, and they're trying to get the game to that point where they can implement their economic vision and it will all make sense (that's how a lot of their improvements seem to be).

Having no form of functional player economy though - not even basic places players can sell their crap without the tedium of shop-crawling every time - is a source of long-term disappointment.

 

[Rezerian]

Still kind of upsetting that such a credible solutiom to strenous gameplay would go unanswered, unread, and unresponsive from the dev team.

I'll never understand...

 

[Rezerian]

Just had a thought that we could use the same system for bounties as well. Creating the necessity for Bounty Hunters

 

[Maxajax]

As someone that has had to fly from shop to shop ever since the method of ship acquisition changed from credits to actual blocks(and hated every fucking moment of it) , I would love to see something like this. If we can:
- Link every shop in the universe together in order to create an ingame auctionhouse, like any MMO has,
- Allow players to list both Buy Requests and Sale Offers,
Then we can effectively make this game less of a fucking pain in the ass.

Hell, ever since blocks became a requirement to spawn ships, most people have been too scared to undock their ships to fight. At this rate we might as well remove all the weapon system blocks.

 

[lupoCani]

Ah, no, that would mean magical transportation of items. That's bad, and would put any willing cargo ship pilots out of a job.

 

[nightrune]

Ah, no, that would mean magical transportation of items. That's bad, and would put any willing cargo ship pilots out of a job.

Yeah I can't and won't support instant transport. The trade guild, and/or players should fulfil actual orders across the universe. Give a reason to build a cargo hauler, and a reason to protect cargo!

Spoiler: Another thread that addresses this.

Don't want to hijack OPs thread, but if you agree with me take a look at this one.
https://starmadedock.net/threads/supply-demand-the-economics-of-starmade.22555/#post-256764

 

[Keptick]

Omfg yes. This would greatly stimulate the economy, a very very very needed feature.

Lore-wise it might make more sense for the network to be managed by the trading guild. It could be available for free at trading guild shops and be available for a small fee at player made shops (like a % of the profits from bought/sold items).

Either way, this needs to be a thing.
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Still kind of upsetting that such a credible solutiom to strenous gameplay would go unanswered, unread, and unresponsive from the dev team.

I'll never understand...

There's no council atm, otherwise you can bet your ass that they'd see it (at least if I was still on it).

 

[WitherFireGaming]

Star Trek Online also has an Exchange, where you can post items at a price of your choice, turning it into a lowest-price-wins scenario. Maybe make them accessible at shops?

 

[Rezerian]

Yeah, shop accessible would be great. On demand orders anytime. It took runescape about a year to develop the system including the fancy artwork. Just coding it into a GUI should make dev time shorter

schema Bench what would be the amount of resources it would take to implement something like this if you chose to add the feature?

Also keptick just try to have the other CIR reps push it.

 

[Bench]

I think it's that they've already got a grand plan in mind, one into which the economy fits, and they're trying to get the game to that point where they can implement their economic vision and it will all make sense.

There's a lot of plans for the economy, with extensive plans regarding everything from shop management to supply and demand etc.

Saying that though this does open up some interesting ideas and I'll be noting them down to discuss with the other team members working on economy stuff.

My mentality is I only want to have to fix things once. Going back and changing things again and again takes time away from working on other stuff that helps put foundations in place for other aspects.

But for me the other thing is making sure whatever we put in is not just for its own, one use. It should be able to be used in a number of ways, and integrate well with the rest of the game in a way that makes sense but is also enjoyable. For example, a lot of people had ideas about how rails should be implemented, but what we ended putting in made so many different things possible. Similarly a lot of people have ideas on missions or bounties or crew or shops or whatever, and while in the current game it might be a good addition; what we instead have in store goes way further and ultimately makes for a more inclusive, engaging, and fulfilling experience that works in the ever changing environment of StarMade.

In relation to this idea, I can already see ways we could implement it and tie it into other plans for the game. Since most of what this could integrate with is in relation to stuff made aware to the community as a whole through our Development Direction news post, here's what I can picture.

In the current plans there's some new stuff that will change regarding factions, but for now we'll include faction stations as part of the example.

So what I can picture is that faction stations with a shop module and an additional block or two (TBC) will be able to connect to the Frontier Marketplace or whatever we call it. Where you can show what you've got up for sale, or see any requests, similar to the Exchange showcased in the OP. This wouldn't be necessarily managed by the Trading Guild however they would obviously have a big presence. On here you may also see any missions that you could accept, such as taking on board a transport mission to deliver items for a commission. All of this could all be driven by your stances with factions however, so I could imagine for example if your faction is allied with the Scavs (currently pirates) then you'd see what they have up for offer and have transport missions for them, but you won't see what the TG has on offer, because you're diplomatic stance with them is that you and the TG are enemies. While you might not see any information around their trade routes etc you might possibly, while flying around in space, encounter another player currently engaged in a TG transport mission, and so you might then be prompted with the opportunity to accept a pillage mission to attack the transport and acquire what's being transported. However the opposite could happen as well, where someone attacks your own transport that you requested or are currently engaged in transporting.

Similarly the marketplace or exchange or whatever you want to call it could be where you view all the open bounties at the moment, again they could be contextual, i.e. a player or faction might put up a bounty only available to them and their allies, or it could be open to anyone, resulting in perhaps a team mate turning to try and take you down to cash in on the bounty on your head.

Mattering what we want to do and balancing, the marketplace could easily extend to let you place ships that you've built, up for credits, or even a design that you've done that another player might like the blueprint or design of. However this easily gets into exploitation if one player purchases a ship blueprint then puts that same blueprint up for sale to compete with the original players' listing.

Who knows, beyond selling and buying blocks, there might even be a market for creatures or items from creatures; or all manner of other items.

The contextual setup that I have in my mind will restrict access to within a certain proximity to a station or planet that's set up to access the marketplace. That setup works best with our other plans, making the marketplace not an instant access sort of thing, while providing a solution to obviously all the logistical aspects of it.
​

So as you can see there's a lot of opportunities to expand what is possible. While none of this is confirmed, mere speculation on the idea on my behalf, there's some interesting ideas that can come out of it.

 

[MacThule]

In the current plans there's some new stuff that will change regarding factions, but for now we'll include faction stations as part of the example.
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I knew factions were getting an overhaul, but "..for now we'll include faction stations..."? Now that is intriguing.

Thanks for responding, Bench. Enjoying the recent improvements immensely.

 

[alterintel]

I want to sell ships at the grand exchange

 

[Rezerian]

Holy Crap, this just made my day 9x better.

That is a perfect implementation of this asset.

Just a quick thought though, could we implement a faction bank connected to the exchange as well to allocate credits for faction use on the exchange?
Also adding tax options per action like in EVE which allows us to put back resources to use on the exchange.

A tax system using the exchange would mean that every guild members action such as transport, bounty, and trade could be taxed at a percentage to save for large conflicts in the future or allocating the funds to more territories.

Perhaps making territories cost credits to claim beyond the 1M credits.

Just trying to add to the playability of capturing systems by giving incentives for faction members to go out and defend systems since they paid for them through tax


We currently have a Mod called ARES where when you capture systems they give you 1M credits every 5 seconds. This time of course could be scaled. So long as you hold that system you will continue to gain profits. Profits that could go into the exchange faction bank for future use.

 

[Bench]

Perhaps making territories cost credits to claim beyond the 1M credits.

Just trying to add to the playability of capturing systems by giving incentives for faction members to go out and defend systems since they paid for them through tax

We have a bunch of other stuff planned.

 

[Rezerian]

Any time frame on when all this would be fleshed out and released bench?

 

[whooplaah]

There is a key different between Runescape and StarMade that needs to be addressed before the OP suggestion can be implemented. The Grand Market in Runescape is for trading items that are not available in NPC shops.

Starmade shops sell every item - if you travel to the shops within a sector you will be able to buy anything and everything. Generally it is only the Spawn stations that run out of credits/goods. This means that the prices on the Grand Market will always be competing with NPC base prices - making it less profitable than just selling to NPCs except in rare circumstances.

To fix this, we would need to make a list of items that cannot be bought from NPCs. They must either be found or made in a factory. This would put a big incentive on using player shops, and would allow the StarMade universe to still have unlimited supplies of the necessary items without disrupting player economy.

A couple of suggestions would be:
Trade Good (item). A box or barrel of spices, dried foods, furs, clothes, or jewelry. These items can only be found from destroyed NPC ships and have no use to the player. They are for selling to NPC shops. If the local stores are out of credits, or are offering a low price, then put them on the player exchange.

Oxygen, Nitrogen, and other atmospheric gases. These resources can be harvested from planets but not be manufactured. They have no direct use to the player, but can be sold to NPC shops. Same as above.

Advanced hull, crystal armor, and faction modules are no longer sold in stores (or are only carried in extremely small quiantities). NPCs carry the mass-produced comodities, which means their goods are cheaper. Players must build their own factories to make the advanced parts - for use, or for sale.

 

[Bench]

Any time frame on when all this would be fleshed out and released bench?

With what's in our current schedule and the requirements that the system would have, it won't be until mid-year at the earliest.

There is a key different between Runescape and StarMade that needs to be addressed before the OP suggestion can be implemented. The Grand Market in Runescape is for trading items that are not available in NPC shops.

Starmade shops sell every item - if you travel to the shops within a sector you will be able to buy anything and everything. Generally it is only the Spawn stations that run out of credits/goods. This means that the prices on the Grand Market will always be competing with NPC base prices - making it less profitable than just selling to NPCs except in rare circumstances.

To fix this, we would need to make a list of items that cannot be bought from NPCs. They must either be found or made in a factory. This would put a big incentive on using player shops, and would allow the StarMade universe to still have unlimited supplies of the necessary items without disrupting player economy.

A couple of suggestions would be:
Trade Good (item). A box or barrel of spices, dried foods, furs, clothes, or jewelry. These items can only be found from destroyed NPC ships and have no use to the player. They are for selling to NPC shops. If the local stores are out of credits, or are offering a low price, then put them on the player exchange.

Oxygen, Nitrogen, and other atmospheric gases. These resources can be harvested from planets but not be manufactured. They have no direct use to the player, but can be sold to NPC shops. Same as above.

Advanced hull, crystal armor, and faction modules are no longer sold in stores (or are only carried in extremely small quiantities). NPCs carry the mass-produced comodities, which means their goods are cheaper. Players must build their own factories to make the advanced parts - for use, or for sale.

We already have a list that contains plenty of planned items that wouldn't be so readily available at shops, so the market would be viable for them. We'll make sure everything is balanced as best as we can.