StarSide Blood and Steel: Season 2

[Krougal]

It makes starmade into rock paper scissors.
You can either have 1 block of standard armor (0.15), 1.5 blocks of systems like power, thrust or shields (0.1), or 3 blocks of basic hull (0.05 mass), or 15 blocks of miscellaneous items like circuits (0.025 or 0.01 depending)...

So, obviously people are going to stock up on shields for that all around protection and ditch as much armor as they can, with maybe some basic included. That means people will also bring more Ion weapons. Then a few people will bring armor tanks anyways to mix it up a bit, and everyone will pretty much pop once the shields go down, like the old days when you had core drilling and really tiny ships.


People with lots of ion weapons will have advantage over people with primarily shields for defense, and people with more shields than armor will beat armor tanks because they have more blocks overall on their ships, and people who have armor tanks will beat people tailored to kill light shield ships.

Also, this will probably make close range knife fighting more of a thing than you see in normal games, and the fights will be quick and simple.

I have a feeling that we will see some teams with tailored ships that you would never see serverside because they would normally suck.

Thanks for the explanation but the game is what it is, I fail to see how that is any different than regular play since the HP update. Reworking my own ships still I go through the same decisions over armor protection vs the added mass. While no one is setting an arbitrary mass limit on me there is still one since the power, thrusters, etc...all the systems have to be balanced against what I expect the total mass of the ship to be.

Now I understand there are differences because this is more like a joust than "regular" warfare, but you're making it sound like armor is not worth its weight (which is the conclusion I been coming to lately anyway). While I would ditch as many "extras" that make the ship enjoyable but don't add to it's battleworthiness for an event like this, I can't really see myself designing the ship much differently (granted I am of the form follows function camp). I would think much of what is learned in these events influences general community ship design heavily.

 

[Master_Artificer]

Thanks for the explanation but the game is what it is, I fail to see how that is any different than regular play since the HP update. Reworking my own ships still I go through the same decisions over armor protection vs the added mass. While no one is setting an arbitrary mass limit on me there is still one since the power, thrusters, etc...all the systems have to be balanced against what I expect the total mass of the ship to be.

Now I understand there are differences because this is more like a joust than "regular" warfare, but you're making it sound like armor is not worth its weight (which is the conclusion I been coming to lately anyway). While I would ditch as many "extras" that make the ship enjoyable but don't add to it's battleworthiness for an event like this, I can't really see myself designing the ship much differently (granted I am of the form follows function camp). I would think much of what is learned in these events influences general community ship design heavily.

Armor can be nice

 

[Krougal]

Armor can be nice

I'm still trying to figure out all the recent changes. I wasn't as vocal but I felt the same way as GRHayes and Edymion about the HP system when it first dropped, but as I get a little more experience with it I don't think it's such a bad thing, and in retrospect core-drilling really was too easy. Armor was pretty useless before the HP system and it still seems pretty useless with the mass changes. Just wish I understood how it (the HP system) works better. So pvp events like these should shed some light on things.

 

[Lecic]

A quick comparison of all the armor types on a basic small ship.

Heavier armor types are very useful in the new HP system, but they aren't useful enough to sacrifice over 200 mass that could have been 2000 weapon blocks instead when there's a mass limit in place.

 

[Krougal]

A quick comparison of all the armor types on a basic small ship.

Heavier armor types are very useful in the new HP system, but they aren't useful enough to sacrifice over 200 mass that could have been 2000 weapon blocks instead when there's a mass limit in place.

I can't get the images large enough to read, so not sure what you're trying to illustrate.
Again, I'm lacking pvp experience but so far what my own learning has been is that Armor makes sense (in theory at least) where you expect it to take damage and there's something worth protecting under it, whereas hull blocks are fantastic for adding HP (unless space or block count is a consideration, which it rarely is). So I'm leaning towards armor plating in places where it makes sense, but not making the whole outer hull out of adv armor (or even std) anymore. It isn't just the mass of the armor itself, it's also the mass of the extra systems you need so the ship still performs the same with that extra mass, which also could have been extra weapons.

Like I said in theory though since weapon damage outpaces armor protection PDQ, even with the new systems it seems. Doesn't seem to be enough benefit vs being a well-shielded glass cannon.

 

[Lecic]

I can't get the images large enough to read, so not sure what you're trying to illustrate.

Press the gear, view full resolution.

Each armor tier weighs about 100 mass more than the one beneath it.

 

[Krougal]

Press the gear, view full resolution.

Each armor tier weighs about 100 mass more than the one beneath it.

The gear...Derp.
Yeah, I get that. Read what I said, your pictures kinda prove (or at least support it) my point.
Like I said I admit I don't have a good grasp on the HP system still but hull blocks seem the way to go for HP. Actual armor only for the impact resistance, which is only situationally useful. And probably marginally at that.

I can see where I would be more liberal in using armor if block count was my hardlimit as opposed to mass but I still don't think I would go crazy with it. Still need more thrusters, more power for those thrusters, more passive systems, more power for those, more power for radar jammer, etc. The "opportunity cost" of armor is more than just the mass of the armor itself.

Another question, the AI setting, I see 500 for the tourney. What is typical for people? I set mine to 1000 a long time ago and forgot about it (and yes, I'm fully aware of all the implications). The reason I ask is because being how it affects turrets it does make a big difference in ship design effectiveness.

 

[Master_Artificer]

A good example is this: Typically in a fight (of small/medium ships, 5-20k mass against a roughly equal opponent), the first quarter is with shields. The next two quarters is without shields, just blasting away at armor and hull, juking up and down at close range. The last quarter is with system failures, computers with no modules, modules with no computers, and represents your ships twilight hours as the armor bar is completely depleted and holes pocketmark the ship everywhere.

It is a lot of fun, but if you cut out the middle half of the fight, then these will be quick, bloody, and maybe even boring.

 

[Krougal]

A good example is this: Typically in a fight (of small/medium ships, 5-20k mass against a roughly equal opponent), the first quarter is with shields. The next two quarters is without shields, just blasting away at armor and hull, juking up and down at close range. The last quarter is with system failures, computers with no modules, modules with no computers, and represents your ships twilight hours as the armor bar is completely depleted and holes pocketmark the ship everywhere.

It is a lot of fun, but if you cut out the middle half of the fight, then these will be quick, bloody, and maybe even boring.

I like quick and bloody, but then I guess I have a short attention span.
I would hope the devs pay attention to this event, proper game balance for pvp takes a lot of feedback.
So if it turns out to make it suck then maybe they will get some good ideas to make it not suck.
I'm not saying you and Lecic are wrong but I think it's a bigger issue that affects the game as a whole not just tourney fighting.

 

[Master_Artificer]

I like quick and bloody, but then I guess I have a short attention span.
I would hope the devs pay attention to this event, proper game balance for pvp takes a lot of feedback.
So if it turns out to make it suck then maybe they will get some good ideas to make it not suck.
I'm not saying you and Lecic are wrong but I think it's a bigger issue that affects the game as a whole not just tourney fighting.

I dunno, I prefer to have a good experience out of the ships that I spend days designing, not to mention gathering resources. Then again, to each their own.

 

[Krougal]

I dunno, I prefer to have a good experience out of the ships that I spend days designing, not to mention gathering resources. Then again, to each their own.

Forgot I made that comment, you're focusing on that and missing the point.
My point is armor isn't effective enough for it's mass. The fact that everyone would dump it for an event like this pretty much proves it.

 

[Master_Artificer]

Forgot I made that comment, you're focusing on that and missing the point.
My point is armor isn't effective enough for it's mass. The fact that everyone would dump it for an event like this pretty much proves it.

Yes, lecic, others, and I were trying to get the starside team to measure based on block count, rather than mass. Because a few extra thrusters or a slower speed overall is well worth a bunch of 2k+ EHP blocks when shields add less than 1/10th of that in protection on a block by block basis, yet come with the drawback of being effected by explosions, pierce, and no regenerative capabilities. I have seen some awesome and creative uses to compensate, nullify, or ignore weaknesses like those though, and always impress me more than simple hulls. Ablative armor, sliding and refreshing panels, phased armor, armor with regenerative capacity, those are all pretty awesome things.
Also, while most people brag about mass, they also compare ships with other ships of similar block count, not mass.

Sorry for completely missing your point though, I'll try to be more attentive in the future and not skim posts.

 

[Tunk]

I'll be using powered armour.

 

[Yrjosmiel]

wait so do I sign up in this thread or there's another site?

 

[Raisinbat]

If it's like last time you just send them a message with your IGN and blueprint.

 

[Yrjosmiel]

If it's like last time you just send them a message with your IGN and blueprint.

Well, to whom do I sent it to?

 

[Raisinbat]

Huh i was wrong, went digging and what you do is go here:

http://starside.enjin.com/

Register, then sign up via the website.

 

[HerrColonel]

Huh i was wrong, went digging and what you do is go here:

http://starside.enjin.com/

Register, then sign up via the website.

I confirm my participation. Can't wait for this tournament

 

[nightrune]

Yeah my friends and I are in! Building the ship this weekend! Excited! I think we might make quite a few people angry.

 

[Raisinbat]

Building the ship this weekend

How the fuck can you people do this, it takes me weeks to get these things finished 3 weeks worked on ship and i just got my weapon fully functioning this thursday...