StarMade v0.199.429 - Combined blocks, new blocks, optimizations and fixes

    Napther

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    factory system first was introduced manufacturing was quite complex and several intermediate steps where needed to construct system blocks like cannons, beams and whatever
    I can tell you that Starmade does NOT want to become IndustialCraft 2.0 Mod for Minecraft levels of ridiculous, and with quite frankly USELESS Intermediaries for crafting. THATS what the Charged and basic circuits, and the different Motherboards came in from, this old manufacturing system.
    Being forced to make something in the same factory for the base materials to make the part for the "Advanced system block" Its only Natural that a factory (In this advanced Sci-Fy setting) will be able to convert a resource like Sertise, Generate the Motherboards from it over the course of the 5 seconds tick, then integrate the charged rammet circuits inside itself to then create a block of shield capacitor. This costs 25 sertise capsules, and 25 rammet capsules which are already a "Non Standard" resource unlike metal mesh/crystal composite. And does not need any player-led crafting of intermediaries to get the advanced block.
    Just because you dont SEE the intermediates, doesnt mean you cant believe they arent still there.

    Adding all these intermediaries is extremely tedious and would otherwise serve no use apart from being really frustrating to deal with. Such as casings in IC2 just being a crafting item to make things more annoying than just using an iron ingot in the same recipe

    If against this simplified hull manufacturing that's introduced now had been a more complex creation of ship (advanced) system blocks I would have applauded this balance shift in manufacturing, but sadly that isn't the case, it all gets dumbed down even further. A missed opportunity if you ask me.
    See above, Its you who are arbitrarily dumbing down the power of the factory system in Sci-Fy setting. We already have to find SPECIFIC resources in order to create blocks, (Of which Fertikeen for armour is arguably the most frustrating comapred with Rammet/sertise for Shields), while basic items critical to a ship existing can be gained from any material.
    [doublepost=1485614392,1485614208][/doublepost]
    to be honest I actually prefer this system over the old one. at least with the this I can customize my hotbar with the blocks that I use the most while my least used ones are still available.
    I can see it being better for speed builders off the mark, (Remove all blocks but basic cube to do work), but We'll have to wait and see on other game impacts, good and bad
     
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    I don´t see anything bad about the crafting changes at all. I can even see that the reduction of crafting products enables them to make the crafting a bit more complex for the remaining blocks without it getting annoying.
     

    Crimson-Artist

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    As a general rule intermediate crafting items are not that bad but they do slow down game play significantly. In a smaller scale game like minecraft where the average house is bout a few 100 to 1000 blocks you can get away with having blocks that are only used to make other blocks since it takes less time to make things.

    Starmade on the other hand is much bigger in scale where your average ship is anywhere from 10,000 blocks to 100,000+. Having to make an intermediate block for every single one of those blocks (even if its automated with logic) slows down the game to an almost unbearable crawl. Having a crafting system with fewer steps on this scale only makes sense.
     
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    Thank you for bringing back the ability to select block shapes with the keyboard. I rarely post anything, but this was the game breaker that made me me log in.
     

    Raisinbat

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    I can tell you that Starmade does NOT want to become IndustialCraft 2.0 Mod for Minecraft levels of ridiculous, and with quite frankly USELESS Intermediaries for crafting. THATS what the Charged and basic circuits, and the different Motherboards came in from, this old manufacturing system.
    Being forced to make something in the same factory for the base materials to make the part for the "Advanced system block" Its only Natural that a factory (In this advanced Sci-Fy setting) will be able to convert a resource like Sertise, Generate the Motherboards from it over the course of the 5 seconds tick, then integrate the charged rammet circuits inside itself to then create a block of shield capacitor. This costs 25 sertise capsules, and 25 rammet capsules which are already a "Non Standard" resource unlike metal mesh/crystal composite. And does not need any player-led crafting of intermediaries to get the advanced block.
    Just because you dont SEE the intermediates, doesnt mean you cant believe they arent still there.
    To me the problem is that the manufacturing process is so completely uninvolved. You don't have any way to specialize your production, or really affect it in any way other than just speed, and creating factories is dirt cheap; you can manufacture faster than you can build in just a couple of hours after starting from scratch with vanilla mining settings, so factories right now are nothing more than a pointless tedium to get over with. I think that's what he's complaining about, it's definitely something i'd like to see change. If intermediate products required their own machines with their own requirements then creating factories and shipyards wouldn't be an irritant to go through; never heard anyone complain about mills or sawmills in any other economy game because the manufacturing wasn't completely awful in every way, and if economy specialization is a thing, like in eve where you might not have a blueprint for intermediate products, they actively help promote trading - something that's currently pointless.

    Adding all these intermediaries is extremely tedious and would otherwise serve no use apart from being really frustrating to deal with. Such as casings in IC2 just being a crafting item to make things more annoying than just using an iron ingot in the same recipe
    This is however completely spot on; complexity for the sake of complexity never made anything better.

    See above, Its you who are arbitrarily dumbing down the power of the factory system in Sci-Fy setting. We already have to find SPECIFIC resources in order to create blocks, (Of which Fertikeen for armour is arguably the most frustrating comapred with Rammet/sertise for Shields), while basic items critical to a ship existing can be gained from any material.
    He's talking about "dumbing down" GAMEPLAY, not the nonexistant lore.

    As a general rule intermediate crafting items are not that bad but they do slow down game play significantly. In a smaller scale game like minecraft where the average house is bout a few 100 to 1000 blocks you can get away with having blocks that are only used to make other blocks since it takes less time to make things.

    Starmade on the other hand is much bigger in scale where your average ship is anywhere from 10,000 blocks to 100,000+. Having to make an intermediate block for every single one of those blocks (even if its automated with logic) slows down the game to an almost unbearable crawl. Having a crafting system with fewer steps on this scale only makes sense.
    Faster isn't always better. See: Factorio

    There's also a difference between production and crafting; production games, which i think starmade fits better into than crafting, requires a time component to them, not to make it slow and tedius, but to bring purpose into creating a factory able to supply the products you need, rather than simply being given it. This is a game about building after all, building factories should be a thing to do in the game.

    Besides you can make millions of blocks in starmade as long as you have enough enhancers, you're limited to 64 at a time in minecraft, so starmade is really many times faster :p
     

    Ithirahad

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    To allow players to create a custom multislot in the hotbar for all block shapes available to the root block.

    LMB to select.
    RMB to assign / unassign from the multi group.


    It's primary purpose is not to select blocks from on the fly, but to set up your hotbar with the shape variants you need.

    Eg: If a player were to only need Dark Grey Hull cubes, wedges, corners and Yellow Hazard Hull cubes and 1/4 slabs, a one time operation to a root block would save them scrolling though 5 unneeded shape variants. It also removes the need to be adjusting a slider within the old slab selection tool in adv build mode whilst making their selections during building.

    Further feedback is always appreciated.
    The problem here is that in most cases, you will need all available shapes, so the current system can become more of a hindrance than added convenience. The factory changes, however, make the entire thing worth it for me, so I won't complain... too much. :P
     

    kupu

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    The problem here is that in most cases, you will need all available shapes, so the current system is more of a hindrance than added convenience.
    Except that a custom multi slot for a large majority of people is just every block...
    If by default all blocks were enabled in the hotbar, and the radial options were still accessible via the "more shapes icon" as it is now to adjust shown shapes, would this alleviate some of the problems you raise?
     

    Ithirahad

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    If the slab bar was reintroduced (and added to the astronaut mode CRTL menu) that would alleviate the issues. Also, if there was some way to scroll between slots without scrolling through all the options that'd be nice...
     

    schema

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    If the slab bar was reintroduced (and added to the astronaut mode CRTL menu) that would alleviate the issues. Also, if there was some way to scroll between slots without scrolling through all the options that'd be nice...
    both things will come.

    As for production, we would rather make a better system instead of having just a ton of blocks to be produced. There is definitely work to be done on the crafting system.
     
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    Raisinbat

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    Okay we need to talk about these new combat changes, specifically the changes and fixes for beam weapons and explosive effect.

    First of all, this is a good change. The game is better now than it was before, beams are easier to make and explosive effect works like it's supposed to.

    But making this change was the wrong decision.

    What does this change in the game? Everyone who made ships with the 10% effect limit now has to redo their ships or at the very least a big chunk of them. For me this is going to be between 8 and 20 hours of changing my current builds because weapon systems are the most obnoxious to fix, and since this involves changing component ratios, its easily the most complicated kind of work.

    But that's fine. Fixes need to be made, and things are going to break from the fixes.

    What isn't fine is that this new weapon balance IS STILL BROKEN. Why on earth would we use cannon weapons now when beams are hitscan versions that don't need any aiming to hit??? Why is the split damage penetration model still in the game, when all it does is make weapon design emphasize crazy amounts of spam and render armor totally useless because most weapons overkill against it anyway and you can just stack all the damage you want on a single block to get infinite penetration that armor cannot deal with, even from a ship <1% of it's size.

    Look at ships like LRSF-1 Orion and RAI Valkyrie that split their beam weapons at 150 damage to avoid hitting the damage split threshold; they can go through thousands of blocks per second and are nearly perfectly efficient at handling advanced armor; this splitting is STUPID because it just makes good weapon designs spam projectiles and beams as hard as you can to beat the system, because anything above 2000 damage loses 50% or more damage, 90%+ at 10.000 when hitting a ships hull. Hell, ideally these ships should split at 25 damage per beam to be the most efficient possible; this system just encourages endless projectile and beam spam instead of letting people use bigger or slower weapons, because those simply cannot be waffled small enough to avoid overkilling. You even made this worse now that the overkill damage is completely erased and doesn't even apply to armor HP anymore. A weapon that does 100.000 damage should do 100.000 damage, not some weird random value between 50 and 10.000 split across 4 different HP values.

    This has been the case for every good balance update you've made i can remember, while things like auxiliary power failed to address what it was intended for, the same effect could've been achieved by just switching reactors to 200e/sec base production without bonus, and ultimately just added a convoluted second power bar and made power systems more complicated. The gameplay changes being implemented are poorly thought out, and fail to address the big issues. Since fixing the big issues will involve overriding the current system, they're just temporary fixes that require rebuilds of our ships every time they're added.

    Constantly adding these small nerfs is also leading to the game becoming needlessly overcomplicated. What started out neat and simple is starting to have so many except clauses and special rules to catch all the little exploits that starmade isn't really accessible at all, and this is only going to get worse.

    Start working out fixes for the big core issues in the game; AI, power and penetration. Making these fixes will require breaking all ships that currently exist, which is why it should be a bloody priority; Not making these changes will doom starmade to never become a real game, so they have to happen, and delaying them while focusing on inconsequential stuff like cosmetics and interface is just delaying the inevitable, and driving people up the wall since everything we're currently building is going to become obsolete. It will also allow you to start fixing the simpler ballance issues with your game, because you can't ballance anything in the game until these systems are properly fixed.

    But once you know what you're going to do, instead of implementing it right away post what you plan to change on the forums. It's painfully obvious that the devs aren't really in tune with their combat system, so please listen to the people who build and play combat ships for this. You'll save yourself, and us, a lot of headaches.
     
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    Is anyone else's game crashing when dragging a block from the creative menu onto the radial selector item? I've managed to replicate it three times in a row so far.
     

    schema

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    The problem is that everytime we change the balance there is going to be complaints.

    The plan for weapon changing is first to fix all the issues that weapons have. It's just the start of a bigger thing. We can't do all at once since we need to test if it's working. The plan is also to add several more components to balance, like beam damage scaling (less or more damage) on distance.

    We also want to make the cannons better by adding indicators to lead smaller ships, as well as rework missiles and missile defense if needed (missile HP).

    The AI is broken, too, I agree. But it's the same thing mentioned above. We can't do all at once, so it's going to be step by step. It now has high priority.
     

    Sachys

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    Not a bad update - like some others im finding the forward scroll / reverse scroll to get the radial menu annoying, but otherwise its not bad.
    Like the new blocks as well - happen to be just what i wanted for my current build.
    Edit: maybe a key for the wheel?

    Is anyone else's game crashing when dragging a block from the creative menu onto the radial selector item? I've managed to replicate it three times in a row so far.
    had crashes dragging items to the hotbar from inventory.
     
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    schema

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    Not a bad update - like some others im finding the forward scroll / reverse scroll to get the radial menu annoying, but otherwise its not bad.
    Like the new blocks as well - happen to be just what i wanted for my current build.
    Edit: maybe a key for the wheel?


    had crashes dragging items to the hotbar from inventory.
    We'll fix that asap
     
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    YES!!! YES IT FUCKING WOULD!!! This is why schine needs to stop following the community, you're a bunch of lemmings running off cliffs.

    No factories = No crafting = no mining = game loses it's management, economy trading and crafting systems. How is that not a huge deal???
    All right, hear me out for one second- imagine a shop that allows you to buy blocks with raw resources. Straight across, no crafting chain required. As the game stands, would that detract from any part of the game other than building factory chains(which I will once again stress I personally enjoy)? The current economy would be basically unchanged, mining would still be the main source of wealth, and if finished products were less storage heavy than resources, you'd still have incentive to trade.

    Now I would prefer that a robust crafting system be part of the game if they can build one that satisfies them, but I would rather have a boring but functional system for getting blocks than a system the devs think of as a boring necessity. It's ok to trim the fat off a game if the end product keeps to the core engagements and does them well.

    That said, there's a reason I called myself out for trolling on my other post, because crafting is kind of a given in the builder genre, so of course it has to be in this one, right? We can't possibly break from the formula, right? I don't even know if I'm being sarcastic right now, because I can see both sides here, but there's a larger point to be made: It's OK to give up on aspects of the game that are both A) unnecessary to the core engagement and B) not fun (or functional) in their own right. Crafting, as it stands, arguably meets that criteria.
     

    Raisinbat

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    The plan for weapon changing is first to fix all the issues that weapons have. It's just the start of a bigger thing. We can't do all at once since we need to test if it's working. The plan is also to add several more components to balance, like beam damage scaling (less or more damage) on distance.
    But you have to fix the penetration model, so what do all these other changes matter when all the weapons will work differently later? You don't have to add the changes to the models, you could have an unstable version like most other early access games where these changes can get tested and get feedback.

    We also want to make the cannons better by adding indicators to lead smaller ships, as well as rework missiles and missile defense if needed (missile HP).
    This is the first time on these forums i've read any concrete changes planned. Both this and beam range damage loss will be good, but again, you need to rework the penetration model later and then how these weapons work and how to design them will need another overhaul, making these current balance changes pointless. If you have a larger plan can't you make that available for discussion? A lot of the changes happening seem careless, and a lot of the old updates that didn't help could've been avoided if they were just announced a bit earlier. (Double power generation anyone?)

    No you can't do everything at once, but changing the core mechanics first which aren't dependant on anything else means you wont have to rework old solutions again. If you end up removing capacitors from the game, you'll have to rework the ai to work with a new power system. According to chiss-chriss the plan is to have more tactical combat for power use where you wont just spam machineguns, but use your weapons at the right time. How can you write an ai for this when a powersystem enabling this style does not exist? If you make larger weapon impacts wider, which you'll need to, how is explosive effect going to work? As long as weapon impacts are just 1 block wide armor will remain totally worthless.

    We know you have limited resources, but these small easy fixes aren't helping, and they aren't appropriate at this time. Splitting them out so we have to rebuild once or twice every month is extremely annoying, especially when they aren't actually helping. As far as i can tell this update just made beam weapons de-facto superior to cannons, made slow weapons worse than they already were, and made advanced armor even more terrible than it was yesterday (truly impressive that one!).
     
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    I was stumped a little with the new blocks menu. Takes some getting used to. I would perhaps have liked the "old" system integrated with the new more seamlessly. Have the old cluster that we could scroll through and the slab bar but have an overall block count rather than counts for individual shapes? Not having to manufacture each one individually is a great idea though!

    Not fully knowing the weapon damage mechanics, I suppose I would like to see it thus... The "hit" would be registered on the first block it hits. Secondary and tertiary effects would be applied and then moved on to the next block in line. Each block would have its own modifier depending on the situation. This chain of calculations would continue until the energy is zero
     

    schema

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    But you have to fix the penetration model, so what do all these other changes matter when all the weapons will work differently later? You don't have to add the changes to the models, you could have an unstable version like most other early access games where these changes can get tested and get feedback.
    We will do everything in our power to make unlimited penetration at least possible, although we do not know yet if it balances. We definitely will try it out if we can: Because the very premise is, that is is at the moment not completely possible due to the immense amount of block calculations it needs. Part of the update makes that part already 20% faster. We will add better systems to transmit the damage done over network in the next few updates, as well as huge optimizations to missile network transmissions which will drastically increase performance of many missiles flying around.

    And this is the main thing we are doing first: Fixing the issues so there is a baseline to even try to balance the systems right. If we would try to fix in the current state, it would just never be right.

    Yes, this update looks like there is just a lot of decorative stuff added, but that's mostly because at least 80% of the work of this update is in the code is ground work to fix issues which is not visible to the player. We try to add decoratives (which doesn't need much work from me as the coder) to at least give the players some new stuff, while I can work on high priority fixing the essential issues as was promised.

    You are right that it's tedious getting the update piecemeal, but the sideeffect of fixing issues is that it would cost more time to have it simulate a broken state (in this case make the beams work exactly the same as before even though the base design completely changed).

    However the difference to previous updates is that we now have fixing these issues on high priority, so it there will be coming a lot at once in the next updates to finally fix the weapon problem, and at the same time get enough work done on the AI to get that fixed immediately after.
    [doublepost=1485627041,1485626962][/doublepost]
    I was stumped a little with the new blocks menu. Takes some getting used to. I would perhaps have liked the "old" system integrated with the new more seamlessly. Have the old cluster that we could scroll through and the slab bar but have an overall block count rather than counts for individual shapes? Not having to manufacture each one individually is a great idea though!
    You can make the system exactly like you used to in the last version by using right click in the radial menu to add the shapes to your hotbar stack to scroll over. When you update there will now also be a new default setting which will do that, so you will immediately find the old system you were used to using.
     

    Ithirahad

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    When you update there will now also be a new default setting which will do that, so you will immediately find the old system you were used to using.
    Excellent! Thanks a lot. \o/