StarMade Ship Systems 2.0

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    I consider revamping the energy system in a universe, that lacks economic drains and entropy, but making it not needing any fuel, to be utterly reckless. In one year, when it comes to revamping the economy, you'll remember my words.
     
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    I consider revamping the energy system in a universe, that lacks economic drains and entropy, but making it not needing any fuel, to be utterly reckless. In one year, when it comes to revamping the economy, you'll remember my words.
    Eve Online would like to have a word with you.
     
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    This can only be a good thing, and the minor differences in optimization from killing self-powered turrets would be negligible except on ships that were overly reliant on turrets instead of primaries & pilot skill to achieve victory.
    This reflects no turret in real life or any science fiction ever. How many combustion cylinders does a 20" main gun on a battleship have? Does the .50 cal on top of a nuclear submarine have its own reactor as well?

    Taken outside of Starmade, the notion of putting a reactor on a gun is absurd.

    talks about :eek:ver reliance" on turrets then argues for realism trying to validate his point. real life ships use almost exclusively turrets and missiles. main guns are impractical. even most sci fi ships use huge amounts of turret dps and the "main guns" are generally rserved for gimmick weapons.

    also youre terribly wrong about self powered turrets, many newer modular turrets can operate on self contained battery power...

    but guess what, in real life "power" isnt really the big bottleneck for most weaponsfire, so from a realism viewpoint this is irrelevant.

    why bother arguing realism in your fantasy game anyway? if you think self powered turrets are a bad idea because they break the game just say so. if you think the game would be more fun and skill based by forcing main guns on ships then say so. but your opinion of "the right balance" isnt objective or realistic.
     
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    ACtually..now that i think about it a bit, this may not be to bad, i have a number of ships with odd shaped hulls that i never finished before because they just couldnt match up to a ship like my titan. Now they might be able to...Hmmmmm
     
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    talks about :eek:ver reliance" on turrets then argues for realism trying to validate his point. real life ships use almost exclusively turrets and missiles. main guns are impractical. even most sci fi ships use huge amounts of turret dps and the "main guns" are generally rserved for gimmick weapons.

    also youre terribly wrong about self powered turrets, many newer modular turrets can operate on self contained battery power...

    but guess what, in real life "power" isnt really the big bottleneck for most weaponsfire, so from a realism viewpoint this is irrelevant.

    why bother arguing realism in your fantasy game anyway? if you think self powered turrets are a bad idea because they break the game just say so. if you think the game would be more fun and skill based by forcing main guns on ships then say so. but your opinion of "the right balance" isnt objective or realistic.
    Batteries are not reactors, not by a far sight. They equate to capacitors in Starmade. You'll note that I explicitly acknowledge batteries in real turrets later. Capacitors on turrets do not make me "terribly wrong" about Reactors on turrets. I'm exactly right - reality doesn't support the feature.

    My position isn't "based on" an argument for realism. Or fantasy canon. Though I'm sure it would be easier to attack if it were.

    My position is based purely on the reality of players IN GAME using docked power dynamics & OP AI turrets to systematically exploit lag in multiplayer, then coming to the forums argue for extending their favorite exploit window based on all manner of outrageously false assertions like the one earlier that "most fantasy settings and reality" reflect having reactors (not batteries, those are merely capacitors) inside of shipbourne guns.

    Even if talking about batteries somehow did refute my statement that IRL guns don't have reactors (which it does not) or someone came and cited a dozen fictional works with reactors inside guns (and we've yet to see EVEN ONE), it would still not justify the way reactor turrets are being deliberately exploited to ruin multiplayer in this game.

    But this has been an ongoing discussion around here since long before this new power proposal, so I've seen both the "realism" and "fiction" arguments long ago. Neither hold up to examination and even if they did they would not change the fact that reactor turrets negatively impact gameplay.

    There are no reactors inside guns anywhere except in Starmade where they make what would be a minor lag exploit into something that constitutes a major factor inhibiting fun & inclusive multiplayer gameplay.

    I'm extremely happy that for now the developers team have ruled to suspend docked power under the new reactor system until/unless it can be made safely workable (at which point I would have no serious objection).

    If people want to argue for them to reinstate it that's fine - just say you like it and wish they would keep it. I'm not going to attack anyone personally over the issue. I don't plan to let a bunch of false or misleading arguments about things IRL or fantasy that don't actually support the feature stand unchallenged creating popular support for a damaging absurdity though, so good luck going that route.
     
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    My position isn't "based on" an argument for realism. Or fantasy canon. Though I'm sure it would be easier to attack if it were.
    you made literal comparisons to real life as part of your argument. saying it isnt so doesnt change it.

    My position is based purely on the reality of players IN GAME using docked power dynamics & OP AI turrets to systematically exploit lag in multiplayer, then coming to the forums argue for extending their favorite exploit window based on all manner of outrageously false assertions like the one earlier that "most fantasy settings and reality" reflect having reactors (not batteries, those are merely capacitors) inside of shipbourne guns.
    players arent "systematically exploiting lag through docked power dynamics." its an unfortunate side effect of their efforts to make their ships do more damage. the people who "exploit lag" do it in a number of other ways with a LOT less blocks.

    real life turrets often self power with batteries. this means they have no need for a reactor because the battery is adequate. the point was that turrets requiring significant power draw from a ship is already unrealistic and doesnt need to be compared to real life, if a machine gun can be powered by a 9 volt. theyre still "self powered."

    If people want to argue for them to reinstate it that's fine - just say you like it and wish they would keep it. I'm not going to attack anyone personally over the issue. I don't plan to let a bunch of false or misleading arguments about things IRL or fantasy that don't actually support the feature stand unchallenged creating popular support for a damaging absurdity though, so good luck going that route.
    again, you literally said those things. im not claiming you want the game to be realistic, i can see from your other posts you dont want realism at all... the point was that youre cherry picking realism for your argument when it doesnt apply.

    youll notice i havent commented on the mechanic youre preemptively defending lol
     

    Spoolooni

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    If this power proposal is anything like I think it is, it would actually make titanic dreadnoughts a lot more powerful than before, because getting rid of powercap blocks means you can stuff the empty space between reactors and stabilizers with that many more shieldcaps.

    This is an old, unfinished dreadnought I was working on, compared side-by-side with a picture of the PoA from Halo:



    It was a good 13-million-plus blocks. Nowhere near practical for actual combat. It had 1,230,000,000 power cap and like 60 million regen, 100+ million shield cap, a few million shield regen, etc.

    Before the nerf, the 900,000-block punch-through cannon array would punch through many kilometers of solid armor. The nacelles were completely full of blocks. Now, if it had reactors in the middle and stabilizers at the ends, and everything in-between filled up with shielding, it would probably be near-invulnerable. Getting rid of powercap blocks and giving each weapon and device its own dedicated buffer gets rid of the need for millions of blocks in this design, allowing for more to be allocated to defense.
    I personally think I like the new system if you put it that way C:
     
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    I think that turrets having their own power supply is going to be a problem no matter what power system is used, so I don't see why turret power couldn't be changed in the future after this proposed power system is implemented.
    [doublepost=1495396253,1495395914][/doublepost]Also to everyone complaining that this system forces empty space; the current system punishes organic and generally non cubicle design, which I find far more egregious.
     
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    I think that turrets having their own power supply is going to be a problem no matter what power system is used, so I don't see why turret power couldn't be changed in the future after this proposed power system is implemented.
    [doublepost=1495396253,1495395914][/doublepost]Also to everyone complaining that this system forces empty space; the current system punishes organic and generally non cubicle design, which I find far more egregious.
    Ya know, for me personally, the one ship i was worried about was the Avelos, and now i dont see much of a problem.

    A.) none of its turrets are self powered.
    B.) its big enough, and has enough space, that with all the blocks(im assuming) removed under the current system, retrofitting it shouldnt be a problem.
    C.) Its shape is perfect for just...throwing down blocks onto, on the inside. s0...
     

    TheOmega

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    Guys, guys, guys. The "forced empty space" isn't actually empty. It just reduces efficiency for just reactors and stabilizers. Having the majority of a ship empty is a horrible concept, and not what is intended by this system.
     

    Spoolooni

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    Well let's be quite frank here. I'm tempted to make a return after yet another long hiatus but this system isn't really leaning well for me. Not because the initial proposal is bad but because I'd like to know when It comes out. I don't want to begin any big projects only to find out it never really mattered anyway. We need to see some sort of milestone graph, the work process or a time table and I like to see the developer team stick to it. When it comes down to a co-creative product like Starmade, you guys really need to respect our time. This game has been alpha for way too long, i'm sure such a request isn't "unreasonable" at this point.
     
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    I like it. Much better than solid masses of reactor blocks after the soft cap.

    Don't mind any complaints about time spent in alpha, or respecting the players' time. You're providing a great time-wasting service (as all games are), and it takes a special kind of self-entitlement to complain about it.
     
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    I just wanna say couldn't this affect fan creations of Star Wars and Star Trek ships due to having to put humongous reactors on ships.
     

    mrsinister

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    I want to see this in action, but from looking at it, and without knowing numbers on power production to size, I think I might actually have more available space in some of my smaller fighters. The power blocks to other systems ratio inside of the armor is pretty high inside some of my smaller ones, and this would probably give me a better arrangement to place more of the other blocks because of the way I do power in them now.
    Hmm, if we can get more space for the smaller ships, ie: my Starfury sized then that would be great, and I agree , I would like to see this in action.
     
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    I just wanna say couldn't this affect fan creations of Star Wars and Star Trek ships due to having to put humongous reactors on ships.
    Actually, wouldn't this make things like the nacelles serve a real purpose, separating the parts from the reactor in the bottom of the hull on Star Trek ships?

    And most Star Wars ships have plenty of space to accommodate reactors and such.
     

    Raisinbat

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    Also to everyone complaining that this system forces empty space; the current system punishes organic and generally non cubicle design, which I find far more egregious.
    Current system punishes empty space by <3% efficiency.

    New system punishes full systems by 80%+

    There is literally no performance difference between having empty space inside your ship or having it outside. It doesn't matter if you have some empty space unless its like 80% of a small ship, whining about it just shows that you have no clue what you're talking about.

    Besides, the penalty from suboptimal builds comes mostly from the increased mass cost of passive effects; solving THAT is the much more sensible solution.

    Guys, guys, guys. The "forced empty space" isn't actually empty. It just reduces efficiency for just reactors and stabilizers. Having the majority of a ship empty is a horrible concept, and not what is intended by this system.
    How is a ship with 1% of it's mass in power generation going to function? Power generation needs to be spread further and further away but needs to stay the same % of mass for the ship to be functional; this wont work because the space between the ships grow faster than the space the reactor takes up = you're forced to have empty space on your ship.

    Or you can welcome the new meta ships that's going to be two seperate hulls floating a few hundred meters apart and able to have as much power generation as they like.