StarMade Devblog - Endgame Document Pt. 3

[Dr. Whammy]

Edymnion and others, without capacity for free pvp the imperialist mode does not make sense, atleast for a Multiplayer server.

I highly doubt that anyone here wants to eliminate free PvP altogether.

What we are asking is that if you meet someone who isn't interested in fighting you, then leave them alone. Adhere to Wheaton's Law and do not assume that they are obligated to entertain you at their own expense.

Look at it this way; how would you feel if your attempts at having a battle were continuously interrupted by MANDATORY and unavoidable PVE courier missions.

 

[Edymnion]

Look at it this way; how would you feel if your attempts at having a battle were continuously interrupted by MANDATORY and unavoidable PVE courier missions.

Yup.

"I'm sorry, but you must complete 5 more trade missions and build a water park for your NPCs before you can declare war."

The PvP'ers would be SCREAMING.

 

[Lecic]

Then I have to say this bluntly:

If running people off the server is an integral part of Imperialist Mode, then is that mode something we should have in the first place?

Either we need to find a way to make it work without wiping each other out, and support that method with gameplay mechanics (which likely won't happen because every time anyone tries to do that, the same people go into hysterics and shout them down for even attempting it), or we need to scrap the idea entirely.

A model that revolves on driving away your customers is *NOT* a good one.

Still waiting on your magic solution for this.

Or for you to comment on all the things I told you a faction could do when they lose a war besides run away from the server.

 

[Edymnion]

Still waiting on your magic solution for this.

Actually, I have a thread for brainstorming ideas on how to fix it right over here: Brainstorming: PvP Ideas that don't include Total War

Some people are contributing, some are just being the "shout down any attempt to change anything!" people I mentioned already.

 

[Lecic]

Same thing.

When it becomes more effort than it is worth to try and rebuild from nothing, people will leave. This is human nature. If they spend days, weeks, months building stuff up only to have it all evaporated overnight while they were sleeping, they're not going to go "Huh, well I need to tuck tail, run away, and rebuild!", they go "Screw this" and leave.

Sorry, YOU would run. You underestimate how much spite motivates some people.

I highly doubt that anyone here wants to eliminate free PvP altogether.

He says, before saying...

What we are asking is that if you meet someone who isn't interested in fighting you, then leave them alone. Adhere to Wheaton's Law and do not assume that they are obligated to entertain you at their own expense.

What do you think free PvP means? I don't think you understand.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

Still waiting on your magic solution for this.

Or for you to comment on all the things I told you a faction could do when they lose a war besides run away from the server.

Let's try a compromise then.

You want solo factions, PVEers, RPer to have a hard time "taking over the known universe"?

That's fair.

Give us this in return. Limit the ability of ALL factions to take over the galaxy. Maximum of 3 systems per player; provided that all are active.
There is no NEED to take over everything and just as solo players need a limit, so do imperialists.
[doublepost=1502892030,1502891848][/doublepost]

Sorry, YOU would run. You underestimate how much spite motivates some people.

He says, before saying...

What do you think free PvP means? I don't think you understand.

When YOU run a PVP server you can kill anyone you want. If you DON'T run the server, you don't get to decide who's obligated to entertain you. It's time you stopped being a hypocrite

 

[Edymnion]

Sorry, YOU would run. You underestimate how much spite motivates some people.

You're right, I would and have run under those scenarios.

On more than one occasion I have been the one to be attacked before I had my home base protected, had everything I owned destroyed, and was left respawning at a shop with no money, no core, no way to do anything, and no one giving a shit that the new guy on the server got jumped.

You bet your ass I left those servers, because I had no other choice, I was literally left incapable of rebuilding.

 

[Zyrr]

Same thing.

When it becomes more effort than it is worth to try and rebuild from nothing, people will leave. This is human nature. If they spend days, weeks, months building stuff up only to have it all evaporated overnight while they were sleeping, they're not going to go "Huh, well I need to tuck tail, run away, and rebuild!", they go "Screw this" and leave.

It's not the same thing even if you don't think it's the same thing. I don't care to hear your excuses for why you think it is. Play on a server that isn't open PVP if the potential to lose everything isn't part of the fun for you. That's just how these kind of games work.

It's more than possible to restart from quite literally zero, even though you never have to restart from literally zero. You can quite comfortably carry out a guerrilla war against whoever you want with near zero resources and just yourself against a horde. It isn't hard. It just takes patience and a little bit of gall.

 

[Edymnion]

It's not the same thing even if you don't think it's the same thing. I don't care to hear your excuses for why you think it is. Play on a server that isn't open PVP if the potential to lose everything isn't part of the fun for you. That's just how these kind of games work.

Or you know, we could have some options so everyone can have fun together on the same server playing the way they each like? Could we try that? Could we even TRY a solution that isn't "My way of play, or GTFO"?

Those of us who don't like constant PvP have no problems at all with you PvP'ing your heart out with others who also enjoy it. PvP'ers do seem to have problems with us just wanting to build in peace, however.

 

[Zyrr]

Or you know, we could have some options so everyone can have fun together on the same server playing the way they each like? Could we try that? Could we even TRY a solution that isn't "My way of play, or GTFO"?

Those of us who don't like constant PvP have no problems at all with you PvP'ing your heart out with others who also enjoy it. PvP'ers do seem to have problems with us just wanting to build in peace, however.

Yes, there is a solution to that. It's called build on a server where you are encouraged to build in peace. No one has any problems with that, it's what like three people have been telling you to do for the last six or seven pages. What we have a problem with is you trying to dictate how PVP ought to be played even though you DON'T do PVP and AREN'T interested in doing PVP.

 

[Lecic]

Let's try a compromise then.

You want solo factions, PVEers, RPer to have a hard time "taking over the known universe"?

That's fair.

Give us this in return. Limit the ability of ALL factions to take over the galaxy. Maximum of 3 systems per player; provided that all are active.
There is no NEED to take over everything and just as solo players need a limit, so do imperialists.

Have you read, like... Any of my posts? Just curious. I have constantly been saying we need to limit the amount of NPC automation to function as a softcap on the maximum size of any empire. This means an extremely skilled and dedicated micromanager can get his "one man empire" larger, but there is a limit on the amount one man can control while still making skill an important factor in how much you can control compared to a hardcap.

When YOU run a PVP server you can kill anyone you want. If you DON'T run the server, you don't get to decide who's obligated to entertain you. It's time you stopped being a hypocrite

I don't have to run my own PvP server. There are plenty of ones that already exist that follow the vanilla order of "PvP can and will happen anywhere but spawn." In what way am I being a hypocrite? I'm not trying to force PvP into PvE servers, but you and Edymnion seem highly interested in forcing PvE hugboxes into PvP servers.

You're right, I would and have run under those scenarios.

On more than one occasion I have been the one to be attacked before I had my home base protected, had everything I owned destroyed, and was left respawning at a shop with no money, no core, no way to do anything, and no one giving a shit that the new guy on the server got jumped.

Sounds like a personal problem. Everyone knows the first thing you should do when you spawn your first station is to homebase it. What if someone was stalking you to blow you up? Maybe try scanning first and trying to lose a follower by making sharp turns around suns or going for a wormhole ride. Or just play on a PvE server and stop trying to break open world PvP because you can't deal with the potential of someone blowing you up.

Also, most server admins will gladly wipe your player file and let you start from scratch or have free thruster stick kit commands so you can float to an asteroid in the spawn system and work your way back into a miner. Again, this sounds like a personal problem and bad choice of server rather than an actual systemic problem with open world PvP. Not to be rude, but git gud?

Those of us who don't like constant PvP have no problems at all with you PvP'ing your heart out with others who also enjoy it. PvP'ers do seem to have problems with us just wanting to build in peace, however

Again, if you are not interested in the open world PvP aspect of an open world PvP game, then maybe you should play on a PvE or RP server?

 

[Edymnion]

Everyone knows the first thing you should do when you spawn your first station is to homebase it. What if someone was stalking you to blow you up? Maybe try scanning first and trying to lose a follower by making sharp turns around suns or going for a wormhole ride. Or just play on a PvE server and stop trying to break open world PvP because you can't deal with the potential of someone blowing you up.

Oh yes, because dodging works so great against a lock on missile attack that can vaporize half a moon, when you're in starter blocks trying to actually get into unclaimed space so you can even START setting up.
Also, most server admins will gladly wipe your player file and let you start from scratch or have free thruster stick kit[/quote]This is the essence of what on the old WotC boards we called the Oberronni Fallacy.

In D&D 3e there was something called Rule 0 that basically said the DM could change any rule at any time. Lot of people would respond any time an exploit was pointed out that it was okay, you could just Rule 0 it. User by the name of Oberronni pointed out "Just because the DM can fix it doesn't mean it wasn't broken in the first place."

The very fact that this happens and the only way to fix it is to have an admin on to use admin commands or wipe your player file out of the database for you to be able to continue playing simply reinforces the point that the problem exists to start with.

Again, if you are not interested in the open world PvP aspect of an open world PvP game, then maybe you should play on a PvE or RP server?

I don't like RP, don't do those. And if there *WAS* a vanilla setting PvE cooperative server, I'll be damned if I've been able to find it.

Seriously, show me ONE server that isn't creative, that doesn't have a bunch of alterations to things like mining rates, that is an actual coop PvE that doesn't allow non-consensual PvP and I'll go there in a heartbeat.

Until then, I'm limited to only single player or putting up with tin pot tyrants that think they're god's gift to gaming and I have to pay tribute to them just for the privilege of existing.

 

[Zyrr]

TSA? You're not even trying. It's one of the top servers. Try again.

 

[Lecic]

Oh yes, because dodging works so great against a lock on missile attack that can vaporize half a moon, when you're in starter blocks trying to actually get into unclaimed space so you can even START setting up.

Why would you leave the safety of spawn if scanning would show you there's someone within range who could intercept you? This is what I am talking about when I say this is a personal problem. Do not ruin PvP because of your own personal failings.

But yes, you generally can dodge missiles with relative ease, and a simple PD turret can easily be afforded with starting credits.

I don't like RP, don't do those. And if there *WAS* a vanilla setting PvE cooperative server

The most populated server for the last month has been a PvE server with agreed upon duels only for PvP though. Are you blind or do you intentionally ignore servers that fill your needs so you have a reason to try and force the vanilla PvP to conform to your ideals?

 

[Edymnion]

TSA? You're not even trying. It's one of the top servers. Try again.

Thanks, I'll give it a try.

 

[Zyrr]

Oh yes, because dodging works so great against a lock on missile attack that can vaporize half a moon, when you're in starter blocks trying to actually get into unclaimed space so you can even START setting up.

Also, you can dodge almost all missiles by travelling at 2.5 TMR. Less, even.

 

[Edymnion]

The most populated server for the last month has been a PvE server with agreed upon duels only for PvP though.

Well goodie for it, I haven't tried looking for a server in the last month because the last times I tried it there was no such thing as a PvE server (which everyone was more than happy to say "See? They don't exist because no one wants that!" about). I'm glad to see somebody finally started one and that it is doing well.

I'm going to give it a try.

 

[Lecic]

Well goodie for it, I haven't tried looking for a server in the last month because the last times I tried it there was no such thing as a PvE server (which everyone was more than happy to say "See? They don't exist because no one wants that!" about). I'm glad to see somebody finally started one and that it is doing well.

I'm going to give it a try.

You must be pretty strong from all those goalposts you move.

PvE servers are rare because Starmade has a consecutive player count of 75. The fact that we have any servers is incredible.

 

[Edymnion]

PvE servers are rare because Starmade has a consecutive player count of 75. The fact that we have any servers is incredible.

I can't imagine why the player count is so low when "I demand the right to blow you up 3 seconds after you log into the server!" is apparently the norm, and everyone screams bloody murder any time someone says "Lets try protecting the newbies".

 

[Zyrr]

I can't imagine why the player count is so low when "I demand the right to blow you up 3 seconds after you log into the server!" is apparently the norm, and everyone screams bloody murder any time someone says "Lets try protecting the newbies".

More like the game lacks any staying power features and is good for building a ship, looking at it, and then building another one.