StarMade Devblog - Endgame Document Pt. 3

    Edymnion

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    More like the game lacks any staying power features and is good for building a ship, looking at it, and then building another one.
    Well if we want to get realistic, its because this is an unfinished alpha that is intentionally getting zero advertising because the dev team doesn't want a huge inrush of people that will burn out on it before the actual launch of a polished game, but po-tay-toh poh-tah-toe.
     
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    Dr. Whammy

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    ...if there *WAS* a vanilla setting PvE cooperative server, I'll be damned if I've been able to find it.

    Seriously, show me ONE server that isn't creative, that doesn't have a bunch of alterations to things like mining rates, that is an actual coop PvE that doesn't allow non-consensual PvP and I'll go there in a heartbeat.

    Until then, I'm limited to only single player or putting up with tin pot tyrants that think they're god's gift to gaming and I have to pay tribute to them just for the privilege of existing.
    This...


    This nonsense is enough to make me consider starting my own server. Money sure as hell isn't the problem, since I'd just buy/build my own hardware. But not everyone has the time to administer and maintain a server.

    So instead of coming to an agreement that is fair to everyone, we're stuck with a bunch of people with the emotional maturity of entitled 3rd graders because it's too much trouble to go find someone who actually poses a threat/challenge rather than a new player building on a rock.

    Have you read, like... Any of my posts? Just curious. I have constantly been saying we need to limit the amount of NPC automation to function as a softcap on the maximum size of any empire. This means an extremely skilled and dedicated micromanager can get his "one man empire" larger, but there is a limit on the amount one man can control while still making skill an important factor in how much you can control compared to a hardcap.

    I don't have to run my own PvP server. There are plenty of ones that already exist that follow the vanilla order of "PvP can and will happen anywhere but spawn." In what way am I being a hypocrite? I'm not trying to force PvP into PvE servers, but you and Edymnion seem highly interested in forcing PvE hugboxes into PvP servers.

    Sounds like a personal problem. Everyone knows the first thing you should do when you spawn your first station is to homebase it. What if someone was stalking you to blow you up? Maybe try scanning first and trying to lose a follower by making sharp turns around suns or going for a wormhole ride. Or just play on a PvE server and stop trying to break open world PvP because you can't deal with the potential of someone blowing you up.

    Also, most server admins will gladly wipe your player file and let you start from scratch or have free thruster stick kit commands so you can float to an asteroid in the spawn system and work your way back into a miner. Again, this sounds like a personal problem and bad choice of server rather than an actual systemic problem with open world PvP. Not to be rude, but git gud?

    Again, if you are not interested in the open world PvP aspect of an open world PvP game, then maybe you should play on a PvE or RP server?
    Regarding - your posts: I see nothing in your posts of any constructive value; only hypocrisy. You support a system that eventually forces people off servers because they want to do something other than fight. Yet you accuse us of of trying to upset your preferred method of play when you can simply ignore us and go after a better target instead. You just want an excuse to be a dick. Nothing more.


    Regarding - "sounds like a personal problem"; More evidence of what kind of person you are. Why would we want to play with people who act like this? Better yet, why should we?

    Regarding - A PVE server: Name one. Edit: nevermind. I'll go there then.
     
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    Edymnion

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    Regarding - A PVE server: Name one.
    Actually they did. The Sentinel Alliance. Its apparently sprang up in the past month or two and seems to be doing well from what they say.

    I'm going to give it a try this afternoon.
     
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    I'm not sure WTF is happening here, but I think I actually side with Lecic on this one...

    Here's an idea: just implement and refine Empire mechanics into the game and let players sort it out. If you want a combat heavy playstyle join a faction war PvP server, if you want a more peaceful experience join a PVE server where combat only happens on joint decision. This is not a new concept, it exists for any MP open world game already - You don't typically have creative builders or logic heads playing on a faction war server, and if they joined one thinking they should still be able to play that way without getting constantly destroyed and hassled, they are not in store for a good experience

    As a sandbox game, I don't think that either SP empires or MP Empires should have any artificial limitations or benefits. It seems obvious that if all other variables are equal (individual time played, skill level, etc) having more people investing more time and resources for a shared goal should make MP Empires more powerful than Solo ones.

    Personally I mostly play Single Player because I don't have the time investment required to be competitive on a large scale, but if I were able to play competitively on an already established server I would expect to start as an underdog lone player and slowly build my empire either through AI fleets, or joining other like-minded players. I'd be too small for larger empires to notice until I either amassed a decent stockpile of resources or pissed somebody off, then I'd have to use tactics, alliances, and a good deal of luck to survive until I was big enough to stabilize my position, at which point I would now either be one of the larger empires that new players either had to cooperate with, avoid, or slowly build up to compete with, or allied with one - Or perhaps in a group of smaller empires that work together to keep larger empires in check. If I constantly got beaten down before I could ever even get close to a decent level I'd probably move on to a more balanced server, unless I specifically joined a cut-throat server for the difficulty challenge where dying and losing everything is just part of the fun
     
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    Edymnion

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    If I constantly got beaten down before I could ever even get close to a decent level I'd probably move on to a more balanced server
    Well, our point is that it should not come to that point in the first place. That it is inherently bad for the game and the community at large to have anyone picked on and run off a server at all, because most new players aren't going to just find another server when that happens to them. They're just going to decide the game sucks and play something else.

    And that is it relatively easy to set it up so that doesn't happen.
     

    Lecic

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    So instead of coming to an agreement that is fair to everyone, we're stuck with a bunch of people with the emotional maturity of entitled 3rd graders because it's too much trouble to go find someone who actually poses a threat/challenge rather than a new player building on a rock.
    I'm not sure what servers you've been playing on, but my personal experience for PvP is almost entirely just factions fighting similar strength factions. The most common battles are when an enemy enters your territory and you scramble to intercept them. This is a completely pointless battle that only happens for bragging rights after it ends. The other kind has been over territory on Light Vs Dark with their custom wrappers and settings, which are again only between factions that want to fight each other. Newbstomping is incredibly rare. It's almost always on trespassers. Even factions known as "bullies" and "newbstompers" like Vaygr in reality usually just engage other PvP factions who are just incompetent.

    Regarding - your posts: I see nothing in your posts of any constructive value; only hypocrisy. You support a system that eventually forces people off servers because they want to do something other than fight. Yet you accuse us of of trying to upset your preferred method of play when you can simply ignore us and go after a better target instead. You just want an excuse to be a dick. Nothing more.
    Not exactly. A more realistic scenario would be "I don't want to invade the territory of this builder faction because that would open me up to the possibility of a multi front war, but they control a system heavy in a resource I need that would allow me to outproduce my biggest enemy and finally engage in my invasion plans, but they refuse to trade with me." Faction politics would generally be more complicated than "hurr I wanna kill some shit!" and any faction that starts to invade people for the sake of it will quickly spread themselves too thin and find themselves surrounded by enemies. Hell, the current system encourages the utter destruction of a faction more than mine does, seeing as how "I'm bored and want to annihilate a random faction" is a lot more feasible when territory and resources mean nothing and you can just fill someone's home system with kill systems until they quit.
    Well, our point is that it should not come to that point in the first place. That it is inherently bad for the game and the community at large to have anyone picked on and run off a server at all, because most new players aren't going to just find another server when that happens to them. They're just going to decide the game sucks and play something else.

    And that is it relatively easy to set it up so that doesn't happen.
    Yeah, really easy to set up! Just completely remove the Imperial stage from the game and give everyone a PvE flag they can set so no one can hurt them! It's so simple. xDDD
     
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    When YOU run a PVP server you can kill anyone you want. If you DON'T run the server, you don't get to decide who's obligated to entertain you. It's time you stopped being a hypocrite
    Almost every server that has been popular in the previous year and a half has allowed you to kill anyone you want.

    I do believe the only server that has been relevent at all recently that restricts Open PvP is TSA, but its hard to call TSA popular.
     
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    I've played on 3 or 4 different open PvP servers, played through multiple full resets of each, and never encountered any issues claiming space and beginning my solo or 2 man faction within an hour of popping up at spawn. I'm curious as to what theoretical obstacles others posting here are commonly running into?
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    I'm not sure what servers you've been playing on, but my personal experience for PvP is almost entirely just factions fighting similar strength factions. The most common battles are when an enemy enters your territory and you scramble to intercept them. This is a completely pointless battle that only happens for bragging rights after it ends. The other kind has been over territory on Light Vs Dark with their custom wrappers and settings, which are again only between factions that want to fight each other. Newbstomping is incredibly rare. It's almost always on trespassers. Even factions known as "bullies" and "newbstompers" like Vaygr in reality usually just engage other PvP factions who are just incompetent.
    My earlier multi-player experiences always ended up with some guy in a capital launching missiles at my base while I'm just starting out. Homebase protection and "turtling" was the only way to avoid getting wiped out.

    Regarding LvD. You don't need to tell me about that server. I was there for a decent amount of time. While on there, I did a little fighting and some "aggressive negotiations" but mostly I just helped new players then built a city that became a frequent tourist attraction, and trading hub. That begs the question;"Why did I leave?"

    Simple; the rules of the server changed to prohibit one-man factions and there was a lot of undue pressure placed on me specifically to participate in PVP on a constant basis. They even offered me "something big" in exchange for my agreement. In a way I was flattered that they thought that I'd make a decent adversary, but I didn't want a target on my back 24-7. That is not why I play this game. So I left and so did a few others. Their rules may or may not have changed since then. Who knows; maybe I'll come back one day.


    Not exactly. A more realistic scenario would be "I don't want to invade the territory of this builder faction because that would open me up to the possibility of a multi front war, but they control a system heavy in a resource I need that would allow me to outproduce my biggest enemy and finally engage in my invasion plans, but they refuse to trade with me." Faction politics would generally be more complicated than "hurr I wanna kill some shit!" and any faction that starts to invade people for the sake of it will quickly spread themselves too thin and find themselves surrounded by enemies. Hell, the current system encourages the utter destruction of a faction more than mine does, seeing as how "I'm bored and want to annihilate a random faction" is a lot more feasible when territory and resources mean nothing and you can just fill someone's home system with kill systems until they quit.
    Your response is an answer looking for a question.

    When the game is fleshed out enough to make large scale warfare worthwhile, maybe then we can have this discussion. Right now, malice and validation at the expense of others is the key driving force for PvP and imperialism. When this is no longer the case, war might have a purpose besides being a dick.


    Almost every server that has been popular in the previous year and a half has allowed you to kill anyone you want.

    I do believe the only server that has been relevent at all recently that restricts Open PvP is TSA, but its hard to call TSA popular.
    I'm sorry, Do I strike you as someone who cares about popularity?


    - You don't control the server? You don't get to decide when Ieave.
    - You don't want us to turtle at home base? Don't be a dick.
    - You want more people to accept your "challenge"? Offer us an incentive to do so. ...Without being a dick.

    It's not that hard a concept to grasp.

    [doublepost=1502899404,1502898704][/doublepost]
    I've played on 3 or 4 different open PvP servers, played through multiple full resets of each, and never encountered any issues claiming space and beginning my solo or 2 man faction within an hour of popping up at spawn. I'm curious as to what theoretical obstacles others posting here are commonly running into?
    Not theoretical obstacles; total elimination followed by rage quitting. Most players are cool. Others need their heads examined and they have no problem demonstrating this to you in game.

    In short; It's all fun and games until someone decides to be a dick. As of now, there is no penalty for being a dick and those who act like this want to keep it that way. That is what drives some of us away from PVP.
     

    Lecic

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    Your response is an answer looking for a question.

    When the game is fleshed out enough to make large scale warfare worthwhile, maybe then we can have this discussion. Right now, malice and validation at the expense of others is the key driving force for PvP and imperialism. When this is no longer the case, war might have a purpose besides being a dick.
    Your response is a problem ignoring the solution.

    The proposed universe changes make territory important and make attacking random factions for the hell of it a potentially dangerous drain on your resources. What happens in the current game doesn't matter because we aren't talking about implementing imperialism in the current game where territory and resources mean nothing.
     

    The_Owl

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    Im more wondering how someone's supposed to perform the "imperialist-empire-role-thing if PvP is not open, but consensual.
    the way i see it happening if that happens is that the moment people want to try and conquer the universe, they'll just be a bunch of people who'll be there with no consequences that exist from that happening, therefore said previous faction not really doing anything as nothing is "conquered" per sey, basically making factions just massive blobs of territory who do nothing except sit there and posture with their E-peens while not doing anything.
     
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    I don't have one for Starmade, but I can provide source data for large online games in general, namely WoW:
    US Realm Pop

    Roughly 2/3rds of the entire population is on PvE servers.

    Given how large WoW is (still), I'd say that is a very good general indicator that given the option between playing a game involving combat either with or without mandatory PvP, most players pick PvE.
    Yeah, because PVP in a sandbox or rpg game is too anarchistic and less about classical tactics (like you have in Counter Strike or Dota). To have classical pvp tactics ship size limits and maybe even skill level differentiation would be needed to attract more players to pvp. Grinding before fighting, and then not know knowing if the opponent is equal, is a big turn off for me. I would be glad to grind some materials to participate in pvp. But when I allready know that I _don't_ know who I will fight against in terms of ship size or skill level, I am not so eager to even go out an seek a fight.

    And all that unknown numbers about ship size, skill level, and who I will enqounter are somewhat solved in pve and not that big of a problem.
     
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    Not theoretical obstacles; total elimination followed by rage quitting. Most players are cool. Others need their heads examined and they have no problem demonstrating this to you in game.


    In my not inadequate experience, I've witnessed only two ways for "total elimination" to be accomplished. One, being attacked and destroyed at first spawn which is extremely unlikely as (a) it provides no benefit or amusement to an established attacker and (b) on most servers, combat is restricted in this area and sometimes surrounding areas. Two, would be a small or solo faction being wiped out by a larger faction or dedicated solo pirate. This too is a rare event, as it relies on the victims ships being undocked and/or the homebase protection being removed....both situations are easily preventable and simply never happen to anyone who engages in the bare minimum of forethought.

    In short; It's all fun and games until someone decides to be a dick. As of now, there is no penalty for being a dick and those who act like this want to keep it that way. That is what drives some of us away from PVP.
    There is always a penalty for acquiring the reputation for being a "dick." Our sometimes frequent "visits" to other players systems has often resulted in those players and others paying us not so polite visits. We've even been effectively blockaded for a week *chuckle*.

    At the risk of sounding combative, and please understand I intend no insult, your arguments appear to be tainted by either a lack of actual gameplay experience or willful? negligence pertaining to a few of Starmade's unwritten rules (always dock your ship, keep an eye on your faction points, etc). I only state this, anecdotally to be sure, because I've found no evidence of what you suggest throughout multiple years on multiple servers.
     
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    Dr. Whammy

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    Your response is a problem ignoring the solution.

    The proposed universe changes make territory important and make attacking random factions for the hell of it a potentially dangerous drain on your resources. What happens in the current game doesn't matter because we aren't talking about implementing imperialism in the current game where territory and resources mean nothing.
    What solution are you talking about? Oh wait! Is it the one where imperialism (just like regular PVP) fails address the problem that there is no consequence for being a dick? ...but instead could potentially make it even easier to be a dick by way of system/resource monopoly?

    Also; How exactly does a player flying an Imperial Star Destroyer who chooses to use the Space Shuttle Endeavor (owned by a solo faction) for target practice risk a "potentially dangerous drain on resources?"

    [doublepost=1502900820,1502900240][/doublepost]
    In my not inadequate experience, I've witnessed only two ways for "total elimination" to be accomplished. One, being attacked and destroyed at first spawn which is extremely unlikely as (a) it provides no benefit or amusement to an established attacker and (b) on most servers, combat is restricted in this area and sometimes surrounding areas. Two, would be a small or solo faction being wiped out by a larger faction or dedicated solo pirate. This too is a rare event, as it relies on the victims ships being undocked and/or the homebase protection being removed....both situations are easily preventable and simply never happen to anyone who engages in the bare minimum of forethought.

    There is always a penalty for acquiring the reputation for being a "dick." Our sometimes frequent "visits" to other players systems has often resulted in those players and others paying us not so polite visits. We've even been effectively blockaded for a week *chuckle*.

    At the risk of sounding combative, and please understand I intend no insult, your arguments appear to be tainted by either a lack of actual gameplay experience or willful? negligence pertaining to a few of Starmade's unwritten rules (always dock your ship, keep an eye on your faction points, etc). I only state this, anecdotally to be sure, because I've found no evidence of what you suggest throughout multiple years on multiple servers.
    No insult taken but you should also understand that...
    1) Realistically speaking, a significantly newer, smaller faction is not going to blockade a larger more expanded one.
    2) You don't even know how much multi-player I've played.
    3) The fact that you have not personally experienced or wittnessed something does not automatically invalidate what others have seen or experienced.

    Also, those wipe-outs happened when the players tried migrating to a less hostile area. They were destroyed en route and their cargo seized.
    Another was left stranded with no blocks near a pirate station after his faction recruiter abandoned him in yet another evacuation. I should know; as I was the one who rescued him.
     

    The_Owl

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    Another was left stranded with no blocks near a pirate station after his faction recruiter abandoned him in yet another evacuation. I should know; as I was the one who rescued him.
    Tbh that faction sounds like a dick anyways
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    Tbh that faction sounds like a dick anyways

    He kinda was.

    His faction mates went inactive and someone (friend/ally/former faction member) stole something from him so he became overly paranoid. He attacked a newbie for shits and giggles but a bigger faction noticed this and gave him a piece of his own medicine. A subsequent attack cost him a LOT of hardware so he packed up and left the galaxy. So all in all, he had to rebuild 3 most of his stuff times in the span of a month.

    On our first meeting, he visited my base; a very hospitable looking city on a terran planet. We traded, and I gave him a few freebies to help him rebuild from scratch. Apparently he made other enemies due to his anti-social behavior and I ended up being his only ally.

    He end up holding me at gunpoint (missile turret) while I was helping him build a base near my territory; completely oblivious to the fact that the ship I came there with could kill him and his turret from orbit with its own turrets. Later he came by my planet demanding that I sell him one of my strongest ships and let him use my jump gate network... He never told me why. Maybe he pissed someone off and was trying to prepare.

    He was definitely 'not all there' but I felt bad for him. We parted ways and he went back to the other galaxy, leaving his new recruit behind with no spawn point set. The recruit got shot down and stranded near a pirate base and asked for help via chat. So I grabbed a pathfinder, picked him up and brought him back to my planet. It was the least I could do since someone did that for me once.

    I gave him some supplies then rendezvoused with the Order of Bogatyrs; whom he joined shortly afterward.
     
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    1) Realistically speaking, a significantly newer, smaller faction is not going to blockade a larger more expanded one.

    True, although that was not the example I provided. That particular instance pertained to our tiny 2 man faction being harassed by multiple small factions, many of whom we had never even engaged. We had poked at a few hornets nest, and eventually....inevitably....some hornets poked back. Our "dickish" behavior was rewarded in kind.


    2) You don't even know how much multi-player I've played.
    Absolutely true. I simply made an educated guess based on nothing more than the content of your suggestions.

    3) The fact that you have not personally experienced or wittnessed something does not automatically invalidate what others have seen or experienced.
    Also quite true, as evidenced by my use of this phrase: "anecdotally to be sure". I could argue, however, that personal experience spanning multiple years and multiple servers would provide some contact with the eventualities you provided. Interestingly enough, they have not.

    Also, those wipe-outs happened when the players tried migrating to a less hostile area. They were destroyed en route and their cargo seized.
    I've run into this particular situation one time, and it taught me a few lessons that I carry with me to this day: Scout the route first, do not transport everything you own on a single ship on a single trip, install a large jump drive array to the transport ship, and install a chain-drive to the transport ship. Only the last suggestion avoids the realm of, "that should have been common sense." I was caught for no other reason than my own impatience and misplaced confidence. It was an easily avoidable situation. Game mechanics, in my eyes at least, should not protect me from my own stupidity.

    Another was left stranded with no blocks near a pirate station after his faction recruiter abandoned him in yet another evacuation. I should know; as I was the one who rescued him.
    Could he not simply suicide and respawn at spawn? Where were all of the blocks he had previously acquired? Where was his ship(s)? And would this not be a direct result of lack of morals by the recruiter and not gameplay mechanics?

    He attacked a newbie for shits and giggles but a bigger faction noticed this and gave him a piece of his own medicine.
    In other words....there was a penalty for him acting like a "dick" to a new player? *wink*
     
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    Dr. Whammy

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    True, although that was not the example I provided. That particular instance pertained to our tiny 2 man faction being harassed by multiple small factions, many of whom we had never even engaged. We had poked at a few hornets nest, and eventually....inevitably....some hornets poked back. Our "dickish" behavior was rewarded in kind.

    Absolutely true. I simply made an educated guess based on nothing more than the content of your suggestions.

    Also quite true, as evidenced by my use of this phrase: "anecdotally to be sure". I could argue, however, that personal experience spanning multiple years and multiple servers would provide some contact with the eventualities you provided. Interestingly enough, they have not.
    I understand now. Two viewpoints; both of them correct in their own line of context and personal experience but unprovable to the other. One of the things I enjoy about this community is that there is always something new to learn. I think this is one of those times.

    I've run into this particular situation one time, and it taught me a few lessons that I carry with me to this day: Scout the route first, do not transport everything you own on a single ship on a single trip, install a large jump drive array to the transport ship, and install a chain-drive to the transport ship. Only the last suggestion avoids the realm of, "that should have been common sense." I was caught for no other reason than my own impatience and misplaced confidence. It was an easily avoidable situation. Game mechanics, in my eyes at least, should not protect me from my own stupidity.
    We all have lapses in judgment. That's life. On the other hand, I have a saying; If you're smart, you'll learn from your mistakes. If your REALLY smart, you'll learn from other people's mistakes. With that having been said, I've never had these thing happen to me personally. That success is the direct result of the horror stories I've heard or witnessed. I'm hoping it stays that way.


    Could he not simply suicide and respawn at spawn? Where were all of the blocks he had previously acquired? Where was his ship(s)? And would this not be a direct result of lack of morals by the recruiter and not gameplay mechanics?
    I forget the specifics but he either left his inventory somewhere else or gave it to the faction while he was in transit. I think he could have respawned but he would have ended up begging for a ride to the nearest shop and/or asteroid belt. I like to "rough it" building a small mining rig on an asteroid and building up from there. This guy seemed new. He might have felt he was in over his head.
     
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    I like to "rough it" building a small mining rig on an asteroid and building up from there. This guy seemed new. He might have felt he was in over his head.
    Aye, I behave similarly upon spawning the first time. (a) create a small jump ship with whatever cash/blocks I'm provided with (b) scout a few empty systems for a suitable planet (c) set up a small square house on that planet (d) hand mine or use a smaller miner to acquire a few base resources (e) create my first station. Rinse and repeat (c) through (e) increasing the scope of each stage regarding block count, lol
     

    Lecic

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    What solution are you talking about? Oh wait! Is it the one where imperialism (just like regular PVP) fails address the problem that there is no consequence for being a dick?
    The consequences for being a dick is that it turns people against you and you tend to get your shit kicked in. See: Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, the Islamic State, etc etc. We don't need the game to force punishment on dickish players. That's the job of other players.

    Also; How exactly does a player flying an Imperial Star Destroyer who chooses to use the Space Shuttle Endeavor (owned by a solo faction) for target practice risk a "potentially dangerous drain on resources?"
    Well, for starters, a ISD is a very expensive ship. Possibly even your flagship. If an enemy learns that your flagship is busy being an expensive cargo raider on some random tiny faction, they might seize the opportunity to invade your territory and smash your flagship-less fleet while you're distracted doing stupid shit. Or maybe they intercept you in your ISD while it's lurking around the newb's territory. Or maybe they do both at the same time.
    Or maybe all the trading factions you've been trading with decide to sanction you for your actions against a defenseless newb and because of uneven resource distribution you can't get enough of the materials you need for shields or weapons because your systems only produce materials for thrusters and reactors. That's not a direct loss of resources, sure, but a loss of income of these will cripple you in a war that's draining your resources. And what's to say an enemy empire doesn't take the opportunity to invade you now that the server is turned against you and you can't replace any ships that you lose?