StarMade Devblog - Endgame Document Pt. 3

[Edymnion]

I brought up PvP war because it's where you will observe both competent, unified factions, and incompetent, ununified factions. If you had actually read my post, you would have noticed that I did not say every faction had a unified aesthetic and goal, just that every GOOD faction did. I have fought with and alongside plenty of terrible factions with no goal and no design.

You are the one in the bubble. You know nothing of how factions operate.

And you keep reading past me.

I'm saying MOST factions aren't that way. I never said if they were good, bad, organized, unorganized, or anything else. Just that by pure numbers of factions, most of them are not that focused.

You can make claims about what you consider a good faction to be all you want, but it doesn't change the simple fact that most factions aren't "good" by your standards. Doesn't mean they don't exist simply because you dismiss them.

 

[Lecic]

And lets face it, the endgame goals we got focus more on enabling 1 man factions than they do encourage multiplayer factions.

AI fleets exist only to replace human pilots.
Automated mining? Don't need lots of faction members to rake in resources.
Automated manufacturing? Again, don't need people spending time making stuff.
Unloaded sector combat? Purely AI vs. AI there, no players involved.

If they were wanting to push people into larger factions, they would be doing away with automation and AI fueled tasks, forcing people to do it manually to encourage them to group up and share the burden. Not make it easier and easier for a single player to do everything.

You're pretty dense if you don't realize that these things are to allow massive factions to wage large scale war more effectively. Or do you think a single player can effectively order about a dozen mining fleets, two dozen patrol fleets, half a dozen bases in foreign allied territory, an occupation of a defeated enemy, and a border standoff with another empire?

 

[Edymnion]

You're pretty dense if you don't realize that these things are to allow massive factions to wage large scale war more effectively. Or do you think a single player can effectively order about a dozen mining fleets, two dozen patrol fleets, half a dozen bases in foreign allied territory, an occupation of a defeated enemy, and a border standoff with another empire?

See, this is the problem.

You again go straight to PvP and "standoffs with other empires". You approach EVERYTHING from a standpoint of how it affects PvP. You ignore trading factions, manufacturing factions, you ignore build factions, for you everything is about combat and war.
[doublepost=1502805393,1502805121][/doublepost]My point is that most of the end game goals listed are NOT about fighting.

Making a working economy is not about war. Setting up trade routes is not fighting. Expanding and managing an empire is not necessarily about fighting. Fighting is something that will happen, but it is not and should not be the primary focus of the game. It should be a big part of it, yes, because it would be boring to play Trade Guild Simulator.

But the entire focus of the game should not be to make voxel call of duty in space.
[doublepost=1502805731][/doublepost]The main problem that Lecic and I have is that we are coming at this from two opposite perspectives. He's clearly PvP oriented, I'm clearly PvE oriented.

He wants a combat game, I want a build game. He wants a game that is entirely about fighting, I want a game where fighting is just one thing you can do off to the side if you want to, or it can be something you can almost ignore completely.

He wants a dogfighter only sim, I want something more like Civilization. He thinks everything in the game is there purely to support PvP warfare, I think fighting in general in the game is only there to give you something else to do with your stuff when you're bored.

 

[Lecic]

And you keep reading past me.

I'm saying MOST factions aren't that way. I never said if they were good, bad, organized, unorganized, or anything else. Just that by pure numbers of factions, most of them are not that focused.

You can make claims about what you consider a good faction to be all you want, but it doesn't change the simple fact that most factions aren't "good" by your standards. Doesn't mean they don't exist simply because you dismiss them.

Wow, most factions are bad? This is obvious to anyone, because only a few are well known. What is your argument? You claimed to not like factions because they are "drama filled and chaotic" with "no single drivingforce shaping the aesthetic," full of "people who are together just to get free resources that simply do not compliment each other in any way." Yet there are many that are not like this. I am telling you that your experience is incomplete and that you are spreading falsehoods and half-truths. You are a stunning example of Dunning-Kruger in regards to factions.

See, this is the problem.

You again go straight to PvP and "standoffs with other empires". You approach EVERYTHING from a standpoint of how it affects PvP. You ignore trading factions, manufacturing factions, you ignore build factions, for you everything is about combat and war.

And you fail to realize two things.

1) Everything I have said applies to these kinds of factions too. An industrial faction needs players to order the mining fleets to mine the resources that are most wanted at the moment, where to build refining and manufacturing stations for most efficient time and trading costs, and ordering their security fleets or hiring mercs for dealing with AI/player cargo raiders. They need players to negotiate trade deals and sanctions.
And builder factions ESPECIALLY need nothing but more players, since their entire goal is to build more and new designs. Almost nothing a build faction does can be automated.

2) Everything these non-combat factions do feeds combat factions. A trading faction hires mercs to defend their trade routes. An industrial faction sells the systems that an expanding empire used to outfit their war fleet. A builder faction produces hulls that mercenaries and raiders and empires purchase for outfitting with combat systems. At the end of the day, somewhere in the circle of industry, there needs to be a sink in the economy, and that sink has and always will be war, because nothing is a more effective resource sink than war. Even the factions that don't directly associate with combat factions trade with someone who does. Starmade is a game with fighting, and whether that is PvP or PvE, it will always play a major role in the game's economy.

 

[Edymnion]

Wow, most factions are bad? This is obvious to anyone, because only a few are well known. What is your argument? You claimed to not like factions because they are "drama filled and chaotic" with "no single driving force shaping the aesthetic," full of "people who are together just to get free resources that simply do not compliment each other in any way." Yet there are many that are not like this. I am telling you that your experience is incomplete and that you are spreading falsehoods and half-truths. You are a stunning example of Dunning-Kruger in regards to factions.

Again, I'm not saying they don't exist. I'm saying that there are more disorganized, chaotic, messed up factions than there are highly disciplined and well run factions. And hence the existence of 1 man factions that totally avoids all of that.

1) Everything I have said applies to these kinds of factions too. An industrial faction needs players to order the mining fleets to mine the resources that are most wanted at the moment, where to build refining and manufacturing stations for most efficient time and trading costs, and ordering their security fleets or hiring mercs for dealing with AI/player cargo raiders. They need players to negotiate trade deals and sanctions.
And builder factions ESPECIALLY need nothing but more players, since their entire goal is to build more and new designs. Almost nothing a build faction does can be automated.

Yes, if you have the people to help that you can trust, this is all true. But this does not change the fact that getting the kind of people you can trust like that is the exception to the rule. If you go out and pick people at random, they are not going to share your views or your goals. They just aren't.

2) Everything these non-combat factions do feeds combat factions. A trading faction hires mercs to defend their trade routes. An industrial faction sells the systems that an expanding empire used to outfit their war fleet. A builder faction produces hulls that mercenaries and raiders and empires purchase for outfitting with combat systems. At the end of the day, somewhere in the circle of industry, there needs to be a sink in the economy, and that sink has and always will be war, because nothing is a more effective resource sink than war. Even the factions that don't directly associate with combat factions trade with someone who does. Starmade is a game with fighting, and whether that is PvP or PvE, it will always play a major role in the game's economy.

Yes, I agree with this. Fighting is a part of the game. Fighting is a NEEDED part of the game. I have already said this. But I do not believe it should be the sole purpose of the game. It is a component of many things, it is there to spice up the game. The entire game and every system, structure, and method in it are not there solely to support the fighting, however.

In it's current state, total war is not possible in this game. In it's current state, total war is not even DESIRABLE in this game. So the focus should not be entirely about war. War should be a side function, it should not be the primary one.
[doublepost=1502806765,1502806530][/doublepost]My point, which I keep needing to bring you back to, is that 1 man factions should be viable. People who do not want to be part of a large faction should not be marginalized or forced out of multiplayer. There are PLENTY of people who do multiplayer SOLELY for the social aspect of it, and have no interest in competing or fighting with anyone.

Their way of play is not wrong, and Starmade is not billed as a fighting game. It is first and foremost a build game, like Minecraft. By default, that is going to attract more of the build minded people. We should be catering to the default audience more than to the hardcore PvP crowd, because they are a (very vocal) minority.

 

[GDPR 302420]

*yawn* Im tired of arguing with brick walls.

*grabs popcorn*

Arkudo, pls go argue with someone else bout fallacies, you are far too dense for me to bother.

 

[Lecic]

Yes, if you have the people to help that you can trust, this is all true. But this does not change the fact that getting the kind of people you can trust like that is the exception to the rule. If you go out and pick people at random, they are not going to share your views

Then don't recruit people who don't share your views or goals? This is basic shit, dude. This is what I am talking about when I say you are basing your opinions off failed public or effectively public factions.

My point, which I keep needing to bring you back to, is that 1 man factions should be viable. People who do not want to be part of a large faction should not be marginalized or forced out of multiplayer. There are PLENTY of people who do multiplayer SOLELY for the social aspect of it, and have no interest in competing or fighting with anyone.

Jesus Christ, can you not read? I AM NOT OPPOSED TO SOLO PLAYERS. I AM OPPOSED TO SOLO EMPIRES. Does the all caps get that through to you? If people are playing solely to mine rocks while talking in pub chat, all the power to them. I have no problem with that. I am opposed to solo empires that clog up the galaxy and the faction list, while being less fun for the player base as a whole. Because if you haven't noticed, a one man empire controlling a 4th of the galaxy is significantly fewer people having fun than a 10-20 man faction doing so. Solo empires should be possible, but they should be incredibly difficult, because it's literally less people enjoying the game.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

Unbiased feedback...

As a player who primarily runs a 1-man faction, I can honestly say that I have no interest in "taking over the galaxy". Logistically speaking; It's simply too much for one player to manage. ...and that's how it should be.

Regardless of your position on this topic, the disagreement stems from two unavoidable issues:

1) 1-man factions and multi-player factions run by one man are at a disadvantage when compared to a typical multi-player PVP faction. While the disadvantage is affected by things like firepower and resources, the real issue is degraded faction management and multi-tasking. In short; you can't build, fight and gather resources at the same time like a multi-player faction.

2) While 1-man factions should not be automatically curb-stomped out of existence, it should be extremely hard (though not impossible) for them to maintain large amounts of territory; with regard to defense and logistics. In short; it should be relatively simple for a small faction to survive and maintain a small area of space but they should not be able to eclipse the combat and multi-tasking and expansive capabilities of a (productive) multi-player faction.

The only fair and balanced solution for this issue is better AI:
- We need the ability issue (better) combat commands on the fly.
- We need the AI to be able to do more than just charge at the enemy then slowly orbit them like a sitting duck.
- AI mining needs some work.
- We need either unloaded combat/mining or a momentary loading and engagement of the opposing fleets/asteroids when they come within a certain distance of each other followed by an unload when mining/combat is complete.
- We should consider increasing the sensor detection range and object load distance extended to match Missile/Damage-Beam and Cannon/Damage-Beam weapon ranges.

With better AI, both single player and multi-player factions run by one man, will become more viable via the ability to effectively command a fleet of ships that actually function as they should (mining, defense, attack, etc). Meanwhile, dedicated PVP factions will have their effectiveness increased even further via multiple fleet commanders.

 

[Edymnion]

Jesus Christ, can you not read? I AM NOT OPPOSED TO SOLO PLAYERS. I AM OPPOSED TO SOLO EMPIRES. Does the all caps get that through to you? If people are playing solely to mine rocks while talking in pub chat, all the power to them. I have no problem with that. I am opposed to solo empires that clog up the galaxy and the faction list, while being less fun for the player base as a whole. Because if you haven't noticed, a one man empire controlling a 4th of the galaxy is significantly fewer people having fun than a 10-20 man faction doing so. Solo empires should be possible, but they should be incredibly difficult, because it's literally less people enjoying the game.

And that just brings us back again to what I said earlier.

The very idea of imperialism in a game with finite resources (both crafting material and space) is itself the driving issue behind the problem.

If someone wants to one man it, they should be able to. I agree with you that it should be easier with multiple people, but I think that a one man single player faction should be the default that things are balanced off of.

Or, we need to just accept that we need instances in the game so that people can expand as much as they want without crowding other players out.

There is a reason why virtually all MMOs either don't give you personal property, or gives you instanced versions of it, because it does fill up the game. Its not fair for single players to take up half the universe, but its also not fair for large factions to crowd out small ones either.

Viable access to the endgame should NOT be gated so that only large factions are allowed to see it. Even WoW realized it couldn't keep raids to being guild only activities and opened them up so that solo players could run them with random groups.

 

[Lecic]

The very idea of imperialism in a game with finite resources (both crafting material and space) is itself the driving issue behind the problem.

Imperialism in a game with finite resources IS the game. If resources are unlimited there is no reason to fight, which is the current situation. No one fights over resources, only for fun.

There is a reason why virtually all MMOs either don't give you personal property, or gives you instanced versions of it, because it does fill up the game. Its not fair for single players to take up half the universe, but its also not fair for large factions to crowd out small ones either.

Starmade is not an MMO RPG. You are supposed to fight over territory. A more apt comparison would be, perhaps, Planetside 2? Is it unfair to the other two factions when one is winning and controls most of the map? No, that's the game.

By the way, there's nothing stopping something like allowing factions to live inside the territory of other factions. This is like how corporations tend to reside inside a larger country rather than controlling their own territory. Why does it matter if Empires A, B, and C each control a third of the galaxy when you, Random Solo Miner #85, are allowed to set up a base next to a rich asteroid belt in their territory, under the protection of their vastly more powerful security forces, for some taxes, and peacefully live out your "mining and chatting" dreams?

 

[Edymnion]

under the protection of their vastly more powerful security forces, for some taxes

Ah, so now not only are one man bands not allowed to take up space, but they have to pay tribute to large factions for the privilege of being allowed to exist? No thank you.

I mean, those large factions are only going to control large sections of space by virtue of being on the server first. Once the available easy space is claimed, there aren't going to be nearly as many people joining the server if they aren't allowed to claim space and build what they want without bribing others to be allowed on the server in the first place.

Which means the server starts a death spiral as only a few big groups are left, and no one new comes in to replace the old ones that leave.

 

[Lecic]

Ah, so now not only are one man bands not allowed to take up space, but they have to pay tribute to large factions for the privilege of being allowed to exist? No thank you.

Hahahah, what? Did you even read? You pay taxes for the privilege of living in protected territory and having access to higher quality mines than you'd ever get running solo.
If you want your own territory your either need to find some lower quality systems on the outer arms that the big factions don't think are worth fighting over because they don't have the manpower to maintain it, steal it from someone else, or buy it from someone else.

I mean, those large factions are only going to be large controlling sections of space by virtue of being on the server first. Once the available easy space is claimed, there aren't going to be nearly as many people joining the server if they aren't allowed to claim space and build what they want without bribing others to be allowed on the server in the first place.

This doesn't even happen on existing reverse FP servers where owning a system is a simple as plopping a faction module on a planet. What makes you think it'll be like this when territory is actually difficult to claim and keep control of?

 

[Edymnion]

Hahahah, what? Did you even read? You pay taxes for the privilege of living in protected territory and having access to higher quality mines than you'd ever get running solo.
If you want your own territory your either need to find some lower quality systems on the outer arms that the big factions don't think are worth fighting over because they don't have the manpower to maintain it, steal it from someone else, or buy it from someone else.

Ah, so now its "new players are only allowed to have the dregs nobody else wanted", gotcha. Because no new player to the server is going to be able to buy or steal space from a large faction.

This is still a death sentence for a server. Just like it is now. If being new on the server means you are only allowed to have the worst systems the server has to offer, then you're never going to be able to grow. Which means you'll never be able to run anything, the best you can do is lick boot.

Not everyone wants to be a servant to whoever got lucky and joined the server first.

This just reeks of "I got mine, screw you"-ism.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

...when you, Random Solo Miner #85, are allowed to set up a base next to a rich asteroid belt in their territory, under the protection of their vastly more powerful security forces, for some taxes, and peacefully live out your "mining and chatting" dreams?

Um... No.

I've tried to remain impartial but I'm siding with Edymnion on this one.

In the past, I've had people try to extort me into joining them. I've also had them try to extort bribes from me in exchange for "protection", "military aid", or simply being left alone. The audacity of such people sickens me.

I don't care if my territory is a small cluster of systems or limited to only one sector; I'll not be paying tribute to anyone who feels entitled to such simply by virtue of (individually or collectively) spending more time in a video game than I do as opposed to having a real life job.

Such expectations will eventually be met with either a large scale revolt of allied smaller factions (each with their own home base) who are tired of that kind of B.S. or a mass exodus from that server.

Either way, the malicious players, who don't know how to leave well enough alone, will inevitably be denied their "prize".

 

[Lecic]

Um... No.

I've tried to remain impartial but I'm siding with Edymnion on this one.

In the past, I've had people try to extort me into joining them. I've also had them try to extort bribes from me in exchange for "protection", "military aid", or simply being left alone. The audacity of such people sickens me.

I don't care if my territory is a small cluster of systems or limited to only one sector; I'll not be paying tribute to anyone who feels entitled to such simply by virtue of (individually or collectively) spending more time in a video game than I do as opposed to having a real life job.

Such expectations will eventually be met with either a large scale revolt of allied smaller factions (each with their own home base) who are tired of that kind of B.S. or a mass exodus from that server.

Either way, the malicious players, who don't know how to leave well enough alone, will inevitably be denied their "prize".

Do none of you people know how to read? I am not talking about smaller factions being annexed by a larger one. I am talking about solo players setting up in the already established territory of an empire.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

Do none of you people know how to read? I am not talking about smaller factions being annexed by a larger one. I am talking about solo players setting up in the already established territory of an empire.

I know what you wrote.

I'm addressing what actually happens outside of your hypothetical corporation scenario. As such, I want neither to be annexed no forced to set up in someone else's territory. Both are unreasonable expectations for a game like this.

You WILL kill off servers with this totalitarian line of thinking.

 

[Edymnion]

Do none of you people know how to read? I am not talking about smaller factions being annexed by a larger one. I am talking about solo players setting up in the already established territory of an empire.

And we're saying what you are describing is so ripe for server killing abuse once a handful of large factions claim all the best territory that it isn't even funny.

It serves only the people that get there first, screws anyone that tries to join in later, and as such kills the server when the older players leave and there is no one to take their place.

For someone who keeps claiming how much "real world experience" they have, you have an EXTREMELY naive view of reality.

 

[Lecic]

I know what you wrote.

I'm addressing what actually happens outside of your hypothetical corporation scenario. As such, I want neither to be annexed no forced to set up in someone else's territory. Both are unreasonable expectations for a game like this.

You WILL kill off servers with this totalitarian line of thinking.

"I know what you wrote and I can't argue against it, so instead I'm going to attack this strawman"

And we're saying what you are describing is so ripe for server killing abuse once a handful of large factions claim all the best territory that it isn't even funny.

It serves only the people that get there first, screws anyone that tries to join in later, and as such kills the server when the older players leave and there is no one to take their place.

For someone who keeps claiming how much "real world experience" they have, you have an EXTREMELY naive view of reality.

Right, so here's you're scenario.
>large faction claims all the best territory right when the server starts
>oh wait they don't have enough members to actually maintain the fleets to hold this territory effectively
>lose territory to a dozen opportunistic empire builders who started in "bad" systems and actually built up their fleets instead of stretching themselves thin

And how about your "big faction leaves and muh server dies" scenario?
>big faction leaves
>suddenly tons of valuable space unclaimed
>massive race to claim and control this as smaller rimsystem factions pour inwards that reinvigorates the server
As opposed to the current situation
>big faction leaves server
>server dies because their enemies no longer have a reason to log in and combined were 50% of the server population
>no one left even tries to take big faction's territory because territory is not important

How do solo empires even fix the "problems" you see with this galaxy rework? Because the problems you're describing don't even come from the idea of limiting solo empires. They come entirely from the universe changes which are being done to encourage conflict, because the current galaxies do nothing to encourage conflict.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

"I know what you wrote and I can't argue against it, so instead I'm going to attack this strawman"

If you think my response was a strawman statement then you really do have an extremely naive view of reality.

Both in StarMade and in many other games, many (though not all) proponents of PVP can't seem to grasp the concept of "Wheaton's Law". If you want to support/engage in that kind of play style, be my guest. Your prize will be a dying or empty server along with the firm knowledge that a growing number of players are going to start avoiding you, your faction and whatever server you're playing on.

Feel free to change to your alt(s) to start the process all over again. The end result will not change.

 

[Edymnion]

Right, so here's you're scenario.

No, that is not my scenario, so let me explain.

>large faction claims all the best territory right when the server starts
>oh wait they don't have enough members to actually maintain the fleets to hold this territory effectively
>lose territory to a dozen opportunistic empire builders who started in "bad" systems and actually built up their fleets instead of stretching themselves thin

Misunderstanding #1.
You think I'm talking a week after the server starts. I'm talking 6 months to a year after the server starts. The big factions with all the space have plenty of people to control that space. They have built stations, defenses, the whole nine yards. In your scenario, they are able to wage total war and take systems those small rival factions claimed early on. Or if you want to say they can't wage total war and wipe the player out, they simply surround them and blockaid them into their own system with no way out until they either agree to join the faction or they leave the server, and then they take the system. Either way, the largest factions will grow until they consume as much territory as they can before running into another equally large faction that they can't bully around. The strong get stronger by taking out the weaker factions in their way until things have stabilized with only a few large factions left.

And how about your "big faction leaves and muh server dies" scenario?
>big faction leaves
>suddenly tons of valuable space unclaimed
>massive race to claim and control this as smaller rimsystem factions pour inwards that reinvigorates the server
As opposed to the current situation
>big faction leaves server
>server dies because their enemies no longer have a reason to log in and combined were 50% of the server population
>no one left even tries to take big faction's territory because territory is not important

Misunderstanding #2, I didn't say the faction leaves. I said the individuals leave. Players will come and go, that is a fact. A server must be able to replenish those players by enticing new ones to join.

Once a faction has reached empire size, that faction is going to be used to controlling that much power. They're not going to just let it go. So when they start having their founding members retire, or just stop logging in and never coming back, they are going to become alarmed that their membership is dwindling. Which means they're going to start "recruiting" by any means necessary. Which means they're going to start coercing the smaller factions to join them. They might not have the people power anymore, but by this point they have some of the most powerful ships and stations on the server, the small guys aren't going to be able to resist them and they know it. So it becomes a "join us or die" scenario.

In the mean time, any new players who log in are going to see massive sprawling empires with no territory available to them thats worth taking, and the decaying empires trying to strong arm the smaller factions, and go "Nope, I can't build my own empire here, everything is already taken" and simply leave to find another server. Or they try to start and the big boys come demanding taxes and tributes, and the new player goes "Screw that noise" and leaves. Which means the server gets a bad reputation. And once a server has a reputation for not being suitable for new players, its only a matter of time until it dies.

How do solo empires even fix the "problems" you see with this galaxy rework? Because the problems you're describing don't even come from the idea of limiting solo empires. They come entirely from the universe changes which are being done to encourage conflict, because the current galaxies do nothing to encourage conflict.

Smaller factions mean less space controlled by any one group, which means more space for everyone to come claim territory and start their own stuff. It also means if one faction is being an ass, there's more than enough force on the server to stop them. Not the case when the asshole faction is a sprawling empire.

You make up imaginary scenarios about a one man faction taking over half the universe, but most one man factions never take more than 2-3 systems because that gets them all the resources they need to build whatever they want.

Its the idea of huge galaxy spawning empires that kills servers. 50 people in 30 different factions makes for a MUCH more interesting game than 50 people in 5 factions. And it means that as the individual players come and go, their territory opens back up and new players have room to move in. Huge factions that control tons of space just for the sake of controlling a ton of space don't do that.