StarMade Devblog - Endgame Document Pt. 3

    Dr. Whammy

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    The consequences for being a dick is that it turns people against you and you tend to get your shit kicked in. See: Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, the Islamic State, etc etc. We don't need the game to force punishment on dickish players. That's the job of other players.
    Ah... resorting to comparing a video game to real life wars? You're funny:LOL:. Unfortunately, you've missed a few things...
    - Japan (an economically dying country, at the time) attacked Pearl Harbor; part of the US; a heavily funded nation with superior fire power. So the U.S. Retaliated. Had they left the US alone, they might have conquered A good portion of China while everyone sat by and watched.
    - Germany, bit off more than they could chew when they tried to take over all of Europe, then declare war on the U.S. The U.S. was neutral until Pearl Harbor and Germany's war declaration. Had they cooled their jets, we'd probably be addressing the continent of Germany.
    - After all the troops, air strikes and missiles we sent their way, the Islamic State is still running rampant because they don't care about western/American consequences and they won't be stopped because they are essentially an idea now. You cannot defeat an idea. You can kill every last insurgent but the idea still exists; waiting for someone to act on it.

    Meanwhile, this is a game. The "job" of the players is to enjoy their game. While some people (mostly other PVPers) do dispense justice, most players will not reliably police aggressive players if doing so will greatly interrupt their enjoyment of the game.

    Well, for starters, a ISD is a very expensive ship. Possibly even your flagship. If an enemy learns that your flagship is busy being an expensive cargo raider on some random tiny faction, they might seize the opportunity to invade your territory and smash your flagship-less fleet while you're distracted doing stupid shit. Or maybe they intercept you in your ISD while it's lurking around the newb's territory. Or maybe they do both at the same time.
    Or maybe all the trading factions you've been trading with decide to sanction you for your actions against a defenseless newb and because of uneven resource distribution you can't get enough of the materials you need for shields or weapons because your systems only produce materials for thrusters and reactors. That's not a direct loss of resources, sure, but a loss of income of these will cripple you in a war that's draining your resources. And what's to say an enemy empire doesn't take the opportunity to invade you now that the server is turned against you and you can't replace any ships that you lose?
    You're posing a lot of hypothetical scenarios that require elements that do not yet exist and don't do much at the time of the attack. You're also assuming that the attacker doesn't have the rest of his fleet docked at their home base; turtling. Which was the case in the scenarios I saw. You're also basing your position on trading; something that is not required at this stage of the game, and likely will never be mandatory because of the existence of factories and crafting.
     

    The_Owl

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    Ah... resorting to comparing a video game to real life wars? You're funny:LOL:. Unfortunately, you've missed a few things...
    - Japan (an economically dying country, at the time) attacked Pearl Harbor; part of the US; a heavily funded nation with superior fire power. So the U.S. Retaliated. Had they left the US alone, they might have conquered A good portion of China while everyone sat by and watched.
    - Germany, bit off more than they could chew when they tried to take over all of Europe, then declare war on the U.S. The U.S. was neutral until Pearl Harbor and Germany's war declaration. Had they cooled their jets, we'd probably be addressing the continent of Germany.
    - After all the troops, air strikes and missiles we sent their way, the Islamic State is still running rampant because they don't care about western/American consequences and they won't be stopped because they are essentially an idea now. You cannot defeat an idea. You can kill every last insurgent but the idea still exists; waiting for someone to act on it.
    Imperial japan doesn't really refute his point, as they did, per sey, kick the hornets nest and were being a dick, and would have properly had a much better chance to win in the pacific if the american carriers were there at pearl harbor.
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    Imperial japan doesn't really refute his point, as they did, per sey, kick the hornets nest and were being a dick, and would have properly had a much better chance to win in the pacific if the american carriers were there at pearl harbor.
    It should go without saying that if (while in a weakened state) you attack someone stronger than you, then you will probably lose. And while carriers were key in WWII, Japan would never have been able to successfully invade and occupy the US.

    Back on topic; my concern is not when two well armed factions duke it out. It's when a superior force invades a weaker faction. ...Just because they can.

    When attacked as a smaller faction, you cannot count on intervention on your behalf and it is difficult to take such claims seriously after hearing things like "Git Gud!" or "sounds like a personal problem to me." when you dare to ask for some slack.
     

    The_Owl

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    It should go without saying that if (while in a weakened state) you attack someone stronger than you, then you will probably lose. And while carriers were key in WWII, Japan would never have been able to successfully invade and occupy the US.

    Back on topic; my concern is not when two well armed factions duke it out. It's when a superior force invades a weaker faction. ...Just because they can.

    When attacked as a smaller faction, you cannot count on intervention on your behalf and it is difficult to take such claims seriously after hearing things like "Git Gud!" or "sounds like a personal problem to me." when you dare to ask for some slack.
    of course they wouldn't have been able to invade mainland USA, which is why i said in the pacific where if they're navy was able to destroy/majorly cripple the US, they would have had a much better chance at winning the war in the pacific.

    Also, if we go back to real world examples for your second point, there are also example of country's being invaded by much stronger ones, with one Very, very big example of this being Afghanistan. I would not count it out to assume that some of the same tactics, ie hit and run, could also be applied by said weaker faction as a means to defeat the bigger, stronger one.
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    of course they wouldn't h ave been able to invade mainland USA, which is why i said in the pacific where if they're navy was able to destroy/majorly cripple the US, they would have had a much better chance at winning the war in the pacific.

    Also, if we go back to real world examples for your second point, there are also example of country's being invaded by much stronger ones, with one Very, very big example of this being Afghanistan. I would not count it out to assume that some of the same tactics, ie hit and run, could also be applied by said weaker faction as a means to defeat the bigger, stronger one.
    What I've learned about PVP suggests that while hit and run/asymmetrical warfare is possible. I once teamed up with a buddy and boarded an enemy capital that invaded my base. We torched our way into his ship, cut out the faction bock and I shot the piss out of him with a sniper rifle. He committed suicide and we took the ship. That was a really weird day :confused:

    With that having been said, a new un-established 1P faction (who has yet to even visit the advanced shop to buy a torch) is not likely to defeat an invading battleship most other circumstances.
     

    The_Owl

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    What I've learned about PVP suggests that while hit and run/asymmetrical warfare is possible. I once teamed up with a buddy and boarded an enemy capital that invaded my base. We torched our way into his ship, cut out the faction bock and I shot the piss out of him with a sniper rifle. He committed suicide and we took the ship. That was a really weird day :confused:

    With that having been said, a new un-established 1P faction (who has yet to even visit the advanced shop to buy a torch) is not likely to defeat an invading battleship most other circumstances.
    If some sort of fleet mechanics and supply system is put into place somehow, you could do so without needing a torch, along the lines of attacking enemy Fob's, freighters bringing supply's, etc, forcing said faction into a war that while they might win, it could be at a cost that is too great for them to have for just that one, smaller factions stuff.

    Another thing is that a bigger ship doesn't necessarily mean it is stronger, so a smaller faction that has a better, smaller ship could beat the faction with bigger ships, because they're ship is just straight up better.
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    If some sort of fleet mechanics and supply system is put into place somehow, you could do so without needing a torch, along the lines of attacking enemy Fob's, freighters bringing supply's, etc, forcing said faction into a war that while they might win, it could be at a cost that is too great for them to have for just that one, smaller factions stuff.
    I'm waiting for that just like anyone else. For now; patience...

    Another thing is that a bigger ship doesn't necessarily mean it is stronger, so a smaller faction that has a better, smaller ship could beat the faction with bigger ships, because they're ship is just straight up better.
    True, but there's a world of difference between a specialized PVP faction who assasinates capital ships and a guy who spawned in a basic CC build because he sucks at building AND PVP.
     
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    True, but there's a world of difference between a specialized PVP faction who assasinates capital ships and a guy who spawned in a basic CC build because he sucks at building AND PVP.
    Here a solution to that problem.

     
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    Dr. Whammy

    You are cleary not gud, you have demonstrated that on certain threads over the course of a few months.

    Git gud )))))))
     

    Lecic

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    You're posing a lot of hypothetical scenarios that require elements that do not yet exist and don't do much at the time of the attack. You're also assuming that the attacker doesn't have the rest of his fleet docked at their home base; turtling. Which was the case in the scenarios I saw. You're also basing your position on trading; something that is not required at this stage of the game, and likely will never be mandatory because of the existence of factories and crafting.
    They don't exist yet. Why does it matter if they don't exist now when we're discussing what it will be like when they are in?

    Oh yeah, just turtle your whole fleet at your home base. I'm sure that will go well when your enemy will be able to blitzkrieg halfway through your undefended territory before you can deploy your docked fleet to meet them, more so if the enemy would send suicide fleets to hold them up at the base.

    Uneven resource distribution is being added with the universe rework and they want to make trader a viable role for someone to play, so yes, I think sanctions will be able to damage or even cripple faction's economies if they aren't careful. If factions can rely entirely on the resources of a few systems like the current game, then what would be the point of this rework? Again, please stop using the current game's features as an argument for what will happen after they are changed. They are irrelevant in this discussion.
    [doublepost=1502975138,1502975068][/doublepost]
    Tell me something then. What are you good at besides being a dick?
    So is this what your whole argument has degenerated to at this point? "PvPers are big meanie dick heads and I don't like them!"
     
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    Tell me something then. What are you good at besides being a dick?
    Well here is a list of things I am better then you at.

    1. PvP
    2. Understanding PvP
    3. Understanding game mechanics
    4. Admitting I am wrong when I am wrong
    5. Analysing suggestions to the game and what impact they will have on it
    6. Reading the description of games on Steam
    7. Understanding why forcing players of a sandbox game to play the way other players who have no knoweldge of what they are even talking about want to play is a bad idea
    8. Understanding that you can play how you want without forcing every other player to play your way regardless of whenever they want to or not
    9. Not being a brick wall during a debate
    10. Knowing that I should probably not engage in a debate when I have no idea of the subject
     
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    Dr. Whammy

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    Flaming I
    Well here is a list of things I am better then you at.

    1. PvP
    2. Understanding PvP
    3. Understanding game mechanics
    4. Admitting I am wrong when I am wrong
    5. Analysing suggestions to the game and what impact they will have on it
    6. Reading the description of games on Steam
    7. Understanding why forcing players of a sandbox game to play the way other players who have no knoweldge of what they are even talking about want to play is a bad idea
    8. Understanding that you can play how you want without forcing every other player to play your way regardless of whenever they want to or not
    9. Not being a brick wall during a debate
    10. Knowing that I should probably not engage in a debate when I have no idea of the subject
    Sooo... what you're saying is; you're ONLY good at being a dick. How interesting.
     
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    Sooo... what you're saying is; you're ONLY good at being a dick. How interesting.
    So far everything you have proposed as a "solution" impacts on mine and several other players prefered playstyle. You have even gone as far as justifying Open PvP inhibitng mechanics by writing what essentialy amounts to "You are a elitist cockfag dickmunching game killing faggot asshole dickhead no fun retrard mentally ill noob killing shitface salty player and deserve it"
     
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    Suggestion:

    Engaging in civil debate, with the sole intention of the exchange of ideas, devoid of name calling, dick measuring, and character attacks. As fun as they may be.....
     
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    RedAlert_007if you want to argue about that i can do that at the chat.]

    Thanks but no thanks.

    When you debate, you make counter arguments to why your opponent is wrong with his statements.

    You don't dedicate entire responses to simply poiting out "you just commited a logical fallacy waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah"

    You were the brick wall, not me. You were not even presenting counter arguments after awhile, just addressing my responses with "you just commited a logical fallacy waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah"
    [doublepost=1502975749,1502975660][/doublepost]
    Engaging in civil debate, with the sole intention of the exchange of ideas, devoid of name calling, dick measuring, and character attacks. As fun as they may be.....
    Very hard to do when your opponents counter-arguments can be summarised with a simple picture.

     
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    Hrm guys ? Maybe it's time to stop those endless arguments and calm down ? please ?... because it's very embarassing to witness members of this nice community tearing themself appart for (sorry but it's how I see that) pointless stuff.
     

    Lecic

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    Hrm guys ? Maybe it's time to stop those endless arguments and calm down ? please ?... because it's very embarassing to witness members of this nice community tearing themself appart for (sorry but it's how I see that) pointless stuff.
    These kinds of posts are easily the least useful posts on the entire forum. We're debating balance and how we think players will interact. It is necessary for the future of the game.
     
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    These kinds of posts are easily the least useful posts on the entire forum.
    The least useful would be those that regress to little more than character attacks and chest thumping. A polite call for manners is neither and appreciated by those who desire civilized debate.

    We're debating balance and how we think players will interact.
    This is what you began debating, yes, but also what many have strayed from 11 pages later.

    It is necessary for the future of the game.
    Only if you believe Shine is willing to sift through 11+ pages of derogatory fire breathing in order to cherrypick the few kernels of corn buried within the....well....you know. This also relies on the yet to be proven assumption that Shine is unable to ferment these types of ideas on their own and require nonstop input from a militantly vocal group of players, the majority of which have little to no experience with software development.

    Make no mistake about it, I'm an adamant supporter of polite debate and the open exchange of ideas, yet we are moving further and further from these and closer to a group of little girls engaged in a slapfest in the schoolyard.
     
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