StarMade Devblog - Endgame Document Pt. 3

[Lecic]

Well, that's different, then. That sort of system does not scale well. While it might work for demonstration purposes, that'd drag down anything short of a NASA supercomputer at the scale Schine seems to be picturing for the finished game, even if the game actually separated physics/other threads for disconnected areas of loaded sectors as it probably should. (And it doesn't, as that is complicated to get working properly.)

Well, it currently handles up to the simultaneous AI limit (around 250 iirc) just fine. Most of the load on servers from battles seems to come from players requesting data. When the server does everything internally it isn't even remotely as laggy. And that's with no optimization to the system.

 

[Edymnion]

"B-but what about muh single player???"

Gee, I don't know, besides the fact that the universe pauses when you aren't playing, maybe there could be SEPARATE FACTION BALANCING for single player????? Use your brain, this should be obvious.

Except then you run into scenarios like WoW where they had essentially two totally separate games (PvP and PvE) where any attempt to make a change in one ended up hurting the other because the two systems were essentially diametrically opposed to each other.

IMO, the game should be balanced looking at it as a whole, it should work the SAME for single player and for servers.

Because solo factions are boring. They often do not have any members online to interact with, they are boring to interact with even if their person is online because they are just one person, they clog the faction menu, they take up territory that you cannot take back because of homebases, and they usually overcompensate for their soloness with soft/medium exploits, extreme drone spam, or excessive gigantism, making them incredibly unfun to fight.

On the flip side, I find multi-person factions to be drama filled and chaotic. There is no single driving force shaping the aesthetic, and often times you just get a loose affiliation of people who are together just to get free resources that simply do not compliment each other in any way.

So you just get random messes of ships, a random mess of a station, etc.

Or if you control things enough that random player drama and craptastic building ability don't ruin everything, you're basically running a 1 man faction with some human piloted drones.

I don't find that to be fun either.

 

[Amadeus]

I personally think that a lot of the issues concerning single versus multi-person factions will be resolved when server sizes become much larger towards the very end of development. Sure, you will still have the option to go it alone, but in a heavily populated server it will be much more difficult for that to be a viable option.

 

[Edymnion]

Honestly, I think the main problem between multi-person factions and 1 man factions is tied to one of the stated end-game goals. Imperialism.

The multi-man factions conflict with the 1 mans because players are being told that they can expand and conquer the galaxy. The way the game works at this point is NOT set up to be beneficial for conflict. Resource gathering takes time, combat expends hard fought resources, and in the end expansion in an established server means if you're going to expand, you have to drive another player off the server.

That is not conducive to a multiplayer game like this. Other games do GREAT with total destruction victories, because the game resets and puts everyone back to square 1 when the game is over. Winning or losing, you both go back to 0 at the end. In a persistent state system, total eradication of another human player on the server CANNOT be an endgame objective.

Otherwise, you get these problems.

Where the 1 man faction has to have an invulnerable home system to keep the larger factions from forcing them off the server, and the larger factions hate the fact the 1 man factions are claiming prime real-estate.

 

[Zyrr]

Honestly, I think the main problem between multi-person factions and 1 man factions is tied to one of the stated end-game goals. Imperialism.

The multi-man factions conflict with the 1 mans because players are being told that they can expand and conquer the galaxy. The way the game works at this point is NOT set up to be beneficial for conflict. Resource gathering takes time, combat expends hard fought resources, and in the end expansion in an established server means if you're going to expand, you have to drive another player off the server.

That is not conducive to a multiplayer game like this. Other games do GREAT with total destruction victories, because the game resets and puts everyone back to square 1 when the game is over. Winning or losing, you both go back to 0 at the end. In a persistent state system, total eradication of another human player on the server CANNOT be an endgame objective.

Otherwise, you get these problems.

Where the 1 man faction has to have an invulnerable home system to keep the larger factions from forcing them off the server, and the larger factions hate the fact the 1 man factions are claiming prime real-estate.

Picture perfect, textbook example of someone who seriously struggles with the concept of PVP. If I didn't already know you I'd think this was really advanced satire

 

[Lecic]

Except then you run into scenarios like WoW where they had essentially two totally separate games (PvP and PvE) where any attempt to make a change in one ended up hurting the other because the two systems were essentially diametrically opposed to each other.

IMO, the game should be balanced looking at it as a whole, it should work the SAME for single player and for servers.

Completely incomparable. PvP and PvE WoW were still both multiplayer on the same world. Single player is drastically different from MP because the only player is you. Separate balance is necessary.

On the flip side, I find multi-person factions to be drama filled and chaotic. There is no single driving force shaping the aesthetic, and often times you just get a loose affiliation of people who are together just to get free resources that simply do not compliment each other in any way.

Said the man who has not once been a part of a remotely competent PvP faction. Take a look at any half way decent faction and you'll see they have a unified aesthetic. Please stop basing your entire concept of factions off a few failed public factions on PvE servers.

 

[Shaker]

larger factions hate the fact the 1 man factions are claiming prime real-estate.

Maybe when the faction overhaul updates comes out we might see proper alliances, the ability to surrender or capitulate instead of flat out getting wreaked.
I do see where your coming from, alot of games have this same problem.

Apart from that, your in a multiplayer game, you have to expect the larger factions to be more powerful. If your flying solo, there is nothing stopping you from calling out the other solo players or another faction for help.

 

[GDPR 302420]

I personally think that a lot of the issues concerning single versus multi-person factions will be resolved when server sizes become much larger towards the very end of development. Sure, you will still have the option to go it alone, but in a heavily populated server it will be much more difficult for that to be a viable option.

Solo players should be viable.

But a single player should not be able to carve out an entire empire on his own with no assistance. Its unrealistic and has no place in this game.

Gonna take an example from EVE Online:

Goonswarm, leader of Imperium and one of the major empires in the game. The Mittani is essentialy the "Emperor" yet he has a whole bunch of leaders, diplomats, advisors and what not under him. His "leadership" is several people even though he is still the Emperor who has ultimate authority.

I can guarantee you that there is no player in EVE Online who can create an empire of the same size, power and wealth entirely on his own.


I think a similar concept can be applied to solo factions, there is no need for every individual player to be a massive empire that has their own economy, resources and soveringty. Its not realisitc.

I do however think solo players should be viable, imagine this.

You start up StarMade and join a server, you are greeted by the trading guild, the spawn station is massive. A lot of posters advertising recruitment can be seen, you go to the counter to get a starting ship. After awhile, you mine yourself up into a basic combat vessel, its not perfect but it does the job.

You go to a local Scav station, you had paid a toll to gain access to the normaly closed borders, you are an untrustworthy guess.

You see a distress signal from a scav mining colony, you warp there to find it under attack by pirates. You elimate them with your ship, barley getting scratched yourself. As a thanks, the scav mining fleet offers you some credits and docking access to their station.

You have been basing out of the Scav colony for sometime now, you are earning some credits by doing some missions for the scavs, they have come to trust you.

Sooner or later, you decide its time to move on, you lift off your ship from the docks and take a warpgate to a trading guild station.

You spend a few minutes looking at recruitment posters placed by other players, you see one that catches your eye.

"The Blarg Imperium Wants YOU!

Fight for us! Contact Steve112 for more info"

You are interested, you take what you have and eventualy you are now among several other players are a line member in a powerfull wawr machine. You fight alongside them several times, eventually you gain rank and become an officer.

The Blarg Imperium started out as a small time vassal of a larger empire, was originaly a group of friends that were eventually able to band together to become their own identity, now they are a dominant force with many dozens of players.

You went from a noob with a miner to the commander of one of the many fleets owned by one of the dozens of empires on this server.

That is how I think solo players should be working.

Not this one man faction cancer.

 

[GDPR 302420]

I want you to understand this about logical fallacies Arkudo.

Logical fallacies are not a counter argument, they are not a magic "I win this argument" card.

Logical fallacies are ways an argument is made out poorly, they do not break an argument. Logical fallacies do not nessicarily mean an argument or portion of one is invalid.


Now repeat after me: Logical fallacies are not a counter argument.

 

[Calhoun]

RedAlert_007
Arkudo

As much as I'm enjoying the popcorn, you're both being irrational nongs, quit it.

 

[GDPR 302420]

RedAlert_007
Arkudo

As much as I'm enjoying the popcorn, you're both being irrational nongs, quit it.

Calhoon pls

=Remember you are only the one who invalidates your own points

Repeat after me: Logical fallacies do not nessicarily invalidate arguments or portions of them.

 

[GDPR 302420]

A fallacy is the use of invalid or otherwise faulty reasoning, or "wrong moves"[1] in the construction of an argument.[2][3] A fallacious argument may be deceptive by appearing to be better than it really is. Some fallacies are committed intentionally to manipulate or persuade by deception, while others are committed unintentionally due to carelessness or ignorance.

Fallacy - Wikipedia

Your definition doesnt say anything about arguments with fallacies being invalid.

Why? Becauses fallacies do not nessicarily break an argument, sometimes they do in very specific cases but in reality all a fallacy actually does is just defines different ways an argument can be consrtucted with less quality then it could have been.

Now, repeat after me: Logical fallacies do not nessicarily invalidate arguments or portions of them.

 

[Mortiferum]

sounds like something you'd see at the bottom of a north korean propaganda poster lol

The true leader will finish the game with the speed of a thousand Chollima, Schema is nothing ))))

 

[Lecic]

Can you expand it a little more?

SP and MP require different balancing due to player counts. SP requires larger and more powerful NPC factions to accommodate for the lack of player factions, and cannot use any player-count related balance that would normally be present in MP to prevent the mass proliferation of one man factions. The fact that the world does not run while you are not playing also means SP would possibly need faster collecting mining fleets and the like.

Furthermore, on your other point on "NPC helpers filling player roles" is absolutely ridiculous. NPCs within your faction are a supplement to players, not a replacement. They need orders to follow from a player. A player can take their own initiative.

 

[Edymnion]

Please stop basing your entire concept of factions off a few failed public factions on PvE servers.

I like how he says "Stop basing your entire concept on just one half of the game" and then turns around and does nothing but spout about... only half of the game.

Or that my experience across multiple servers and seeing the same thing over and over again is somehow less important than his experience on what sounds like the same faction in the same pvp server?

 

[Lecic]

Arkudo
RedAlert_007
Can you chucklecucks stop arguing about who is committing more logical fallacies? Christ.

 

[Edymnion]

Furthermore, on your other point on "NPC helpers filling player roles" is absolutely ridiculous. NPCs within your faction are a supplement to players, not a replacement. They need orders to follow from a player. A player can take their own initiative.

Um, and what initiatives are there to take?

About the only thing a player can do that an AI NPC can't is design new ships. AI can mine, it can fight, and it can build existing ships. Literally the only thing an NPC faction member can't do that a human can is design something new.
[doublepost=1502803995,1502803912][/doublepost]

Completely incomparable. PvP and PvE WoW were still both multiplayer on the same world.

You... clearly never played organized PvP in WoW. It had it's own gear, its own abilities, it's own regions, and any balance change to any ability either hurt or helped either PvE or PvP. The only crossover was people taking their PvP builds out for some open world PvP, which there was drastically little of compared to actual organized Arena play.

 

[Lecic]

I like how he says "Stop basing your entire concept on just one half of the game" and then turns around and does nothing but spout about... only half of the game.

Or that my experience across multiple servers and seeing the same thing over and over again is somehow less important than his experience on what sounds like the same faction in the same pvp server?

Bruh are you serious

I've played in 4 different factions across a dozen servers over the past 4 years. I've fought with or alongside dozens of different factions. I am telling you from my vast experience, WHICH YOU LACK, that any halfway decent faction has a unified aesthetic and a collective goal. You are the one basing your opinions on half the game. I have seen it all. You don't know what you're talking about and I do. When's the last time you played in a PvP war?

 

[Edymnion]

When's the last time you played in a PvP war?

And what does a PvP war have to do with 1 man vs. multi-man factions and their relative balance to the universe as a whole? I've seen just as many factions as you, and most of them were nowhere near as organized as what you're talking about.

You seem to be the one living in a PvP bubble where everybody is ultra-focused. Most players aren't like that. But you were probably too busy blowing them up to stop and notice things like that.
[doublepost=1502804636,1502804266][/doublepost]And lets face it, the endgame goals we got focus more on enabling 1 man factions than they do encourage multiplayer factions.

AI fleets exist only to replace human pilots.
Automated mining? Don't need lots of faction members to rake in resources.
Automated manufacturing? Again, don't need people spending time making stuff.
Unloaded sector combat? Purely AI vs. AI there, no players involved.

If they were wanting to push people into larger factions, they would be doing away with automation and AI fueled tasks, forcing people to do it manually to encourage them to group up and share the burden. Not make it easier and easier for a single player to do everything.

 

[Lecic]

Um, and what initiatives are there to take?

About the only thing a player can do that an AI NPC can't is design new ships. AI can mine, it can fight, and it can build existing ships. Literally the only thing an NPC faction member can't do that a human can is design something new.

How about doing any of those things in a way the leaders of the faction actually want? Where they want? NPCs cannot be relied on to do things effectively without player guidance, and this is a good thing. Player factions should not just be NPC factions with a player designing their fleet live instead of having a fixed one.

And what does a PvP war have to do with 1 man vs. multi-man factions and their relative balance to the universe as a whole? I've seen just as many factions as you, and most of them were nowhere near as organized as what you're talking about.

You love talking about things you know absolutely nothing about, huh?

I brought up PvP war because it's where you will observe both competent, unified factions, and incompetent, ununified factions. If you had actually read my post, you would have noticed that I did not say every faction had a unified aesthetic and goal, just that every GOOD faction did. I have fought with and alongside plenty of terrible factions with no goal and no design.

You are the one in the bubble. You know nothing of how factions operate.