StarMade Devblog - Endgame Document Pt. 3

    Discussion in 'Game News' started by schema, Aug 9, 2017.

    1. Valiant70

      Valiant70 Cyborg Ninjaneer

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      On the topic of one-man factions: The difference between single player and multiplayer is that in single player, the server only runs when you're online. In multiplayer, stuff continues to happen while you're offline, so you may need other people to help keep an eye on things. In single player, you're on 24/7 as far as your game universe is concerned.

      Make sense? If factions require frequent attention, but are not impossible for a single person to manage, single player can still work even if it's very hard to manage a faction alone in multiplayer.
      --- Updated post (merge), Aug 12, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 12, 2017 ---
      Nonsense. No one had any idea what the finished product might look like before. Now we do, so we can provide more accurate feedback. Unfortunately the Dock is kind of a mess so we get a lot of arguments. Nonetheless, there is some good information getting thrown around here.
       
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    2. ObiShawnKenobi

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      Isn't the game too far away for endgame to be considered a thought?
       
    3. EricBlank

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      in game development, as in writing or creating something yourself, you should always have an endgame you're working towards, to define just what the heck you're doing and so you know it when you get there. So in that way, no, its best to lay that out first and foremost, everything in between is meant to accomplish that goal.
       
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    4. Lecic

      Lecic Convicted Lancake Abuser

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      "B-but what about muh single player???"

      Gee, I don't know, besides the fact that the universe pauses when you aren't playing, maybe there could be SEPARATE FACTION BALANCING for single player????? Use your brain, this should be obvious.

      I don't think being a solo faction should be impossible. I said it should be extremely difficult. Why? Because solo factions are boring. They often do not have any members online to interact with, they are boring to interact with even if their person is online because they are just one person, they clog the faction menu, they take up territory that you cannot take back because of homebases, and they usually overcompensate for their soloness with soft/medium exploits, extreme drone spam, or excessive gigantism, making them incredibly unfun to fight.

      A system has a surface area of 1,536 sectors. A player loads a 3^3 box around them. To keep an entire system's border loaded to prevent unloaded fleets from sneaking in, you would need 171 people to keep the borders of your ONE SYSTEM loaded at all times. (EDITED by alterintel) Thanks.

      (This post has been reported and has been dealt with. Keeping post as it is constructive and part of discussion. ~Thingie~)
       
      #64 Lecic, Aug 13, 2017 at 4:12 AM
      Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2017 at 5:14 PM
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    5. Equilibrium21

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      You should look into your anger management issues, just saying.
       
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    6. Arkudo

      Arkudo Somtaaw

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      Are you kidding us? you want 2 games inside the same game? [Yeah i know you are aganist the single man factions over servers since some years ago, some of the points you defend on that subject are logical, others not.]


      At the current game state PLAYING ALONE IS HARD. [You need to invest more time to do the same as if you played with people.]


      AND YOU REALLY, REALLY, REALLY THINK THAT STUFF IS NOT HAPPENING ON FACTIONS OF MORE THAN 1 PERSON? REALLY?
       
      #66 Arkudo, Aug 13, 2017 at 10:04 AM
      Last edited: Aug 13, 2017 at 10:20 AM
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    7. apelsinsaft

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      Thanks for the perspective.

      There are ways schine could go about it even if they don't want to do unloaded combat. In From The Depths (at least how i remember it), any fleet that is in "combat range" of an enemy fleet is "blockaded", and can't move around or do anything until a player appears on the scene to resolve the battle. It would be very simple to implement something similar in starmade until schine decides whether they want unloaded combat or not: whenever a fleet occupies a sector that is within one sector of an enemy fleet (or however far the visual range in starmade is) it gets blockaded. This way an enemy fleet can't sneak past your "border sphere" and there would be a tangible way to protect your territory (although you'd need a terrifying amount of ships to patrol a territory of several systems, but that is probably fine).
      Do you have to be rude my man?
       
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    8. Black_Sun

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      You seem to be a little bit simple minded. Mocking people that want to play the full game and are raising concerns to your so called solution. Than telling us that you do not now how to fix these problems and saying that we should use our brain for a problem that you have created is a little bit idiotic to be honest. If everything you propose is done the same way you are handling these kind of problems, I hope that the developers are not listening to any of your proposales without deeper thoughts.

      It is also really funny when you decided to calculate something with absolutely no sense and than told people to shut the fuck up because they have no idea what they are talking about.
       
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    9. Lecic

      Lecic Convicted Lancake Abuser

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      Classic mods, giving you points because you said some mean words to the Schine Defense Squad. Loving the hugbox.

      Uh, yes? You say that like it's a problem. It's already pretty obvious in the current game that SP and MP need different faction balancing, because MP has significantly less need for large NPC factions. I don't see why this wouldn't apply to solo factions.

      Not really. Sure, you've only got one person mining, but you also only need to supply resources for one person. It's not like territory means anything either.

      Yes. Shout-out to whoever cried and reported me about that btw, terribly sorry I hurt your delicate sensibilities.

      To be entirely honest, I'm not sure what your argument here even is. You're mad I said to think outside the box and realize you can balance SP and MP differently?

      Well, if you'd read my post, you'd know it was a continuation of the argument over a faction having "too much territory" for its member count to defend, which I was countering by showing that even one system is impossible for a faction to defend from unloaded fleets. It actually made perfect sense if you're capable of reading more than one post at a time.

      So I can blockade all of my enemy's fleets by sending thruster sticks to lock them up?

      All this is really doing is showing me that we need unloaded combat (which, I will remind you, is already implemented and just not well optimized) and that we can't half-ass it.
       
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    10. Zyrr

      Zyrr Chronic Troublemaker

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      sounds like something you'd see at the bottom of a north korean propaganda poster lol
       
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    11. Arkudo

      Arkudo Somtaaw

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      Are you sure about that?[The Bold thing] The only way that is true is because a MP server have enough players to fill the galaxy and over around 5 years playing this game I've only seen it a couple of times.

      As example of a "normal" big faction: Vaygr peeps: 1 system, 1 homebase and if we remove the atacks they perform there is nothing more about those guys at the server.[And those peeps are not the only ones that play on that way]. Unless they need it, the players are not going to get more than 1 or 2 sectors.[Same as 1 man faction.]

      Correct me if i am wrong please: Are you trying to defend a "death match" style of gameplay with your point?


      [​IMG]

      Are you doing something that escapes me? This game is more than mining:

      - Have you ever tried to split "selling time" with another player?
      - Have you ever tried to "farming pirates" with another player?
      - Have you ever tried to "atack" other player with another player?
      - Have you ever tried to build something with another player?
      - Have you ever tried to get intel from someone with another player?
      - Etc etc etc.[Most probably I will not have written all the possibilities]

      Do you know what all these things have in common?[The more people the less time is required to finish]

      EDIT: I forget to ask LecicLecic if playing alone at the current stage is not hard, what are its advantages?
       
      #71 Arkudo, Aug 13, 2017 at 5:31 PM
      Last edited: Aug 13, 2017 at 6:35 PM
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    12. Equilibrium21

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      Schine Defense Squad... They don't have the same opinion as me therefore they are fanboys. You're a bad joke.
       
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    13. Lecic

      Lecic Convicted Lancake Abuser

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      You seem to be forgetting that the amount of useful territory is getting reduced to encourage conflict, and that controlling multiple systems will become a necessity.
      However, even in the current game, servers with reversed FP have a need for lots of territory and NPCs are just pointless bloat on the map.

      Playing alone in the current game is not hard. It is easy to mine enough to have ships and fleets at the max size a server allows, and it grants you numerous advantages like "no spies," "no internal conflicts," "nothing can happen to your faction while you are offline," etc.
       
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    14. apelsinsaft

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      If schine decide to go through with not having any form of unloaded combat and went with something like what FTD did, yes that's what would eventually happen to somebody. There are numerous ways to make it less viable:

      1. It's already somewhat mitigated by the fact that making fleets and sending them out takes time and requires scouting
      2. Anyone that loads their fleet can easily waltz right past the blockade sticks and/or blow them up, potentially with much less effort required than for the guy who is sending them
      3. Admins can moderate the use of blockade sticks
      4. Some system for a maximum amount of fleets for a faction can be put in place, discouraging the use of gorillions of tiny fleets to disrupt unloaded movement since it would be more valuable to use those fleets for your own defense. (What such a metric would scale with is a topic for another discussion)

      But of course, like you said, unloaded combat would be great. I suggested some posts up a way to do it in a way that both masks the imbalance and discourages minmaxers by using some randomness in the equation.
       
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    15. Arkudo

      Arkudo Somtaaw

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      Unless i understood totally wrong the idea is "allow" only 1 galaxy and not "reduce the amount of useful territory" as you are affirming.[If you know a server where more than 50% of the main galaxy systems are taked by players please type it, i never seen one of those. Same with some big chunks of npc factions.]

      Now is time to use my magic crystal ball:

      - Big factions are going to be THE SAME AS NOW, the big diference is they claim the "extra" systems only while they are mining.[LAME peeps are lame in other words].

      - With the retarded higher mining bonus of some server have the system claimed to get the max bonus is not going to be a problem too, only needs to be claimed by other player.


      Yeah is pointless trade with the npcs.
      Is pointless too try to pirate one of those "trade time" of the npcs.[Trading network stuff]
      Is pointless atack other stuff that is not a player.
      Is pointless all the stuff away from a "death match".

      I asked you about this:

      Correct me if i am wrong please: Are you trying to defend a "death match" style of gameplay with your point?

      Since you have not answered I ask again.


      Another facepalm moment.

      Please do not use "the minig time" as example of 1 man faction are not hard. [Remember high retarded mining bonus of the servers.]

      Lets to piece it:

      > Nothing can happen to your faction while you are offline. FALSE [We are talking about Multiplayer server correct? If not you are correct. If you can not get this point i can explain it better. ]

      > No internal conflicts. TRUE [But is easy to get an extenal conflict, which is worse than those.]

      > No spies. HALF TRUTH [Espionage stuff is more than check where is "X" player over the faction menu, being alone not make you are inmune of that stuff.]

      And those amazing advantages come with the cost of needing more time for everything else. [Check my other post from above to a better explanation. I think you missed to read it or directly avoid it.]
       
    16. Lecic

      Lecic Convicted Lancake Abuser

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      Well, what TunkTunk has told me is that the existing "unloaded combat" system just loads the sector for AI to fight in. Without players requesting tons of data from the server for this battle and because certain things don't need to be loaded, it's actually pretty low load on any halfway decent box, up to the simultaneous AI max.
      There's not even really a need for a separate loaded/unloaded balance when it's literally just simplified loaded combat. Hell, if this turns out to be too much load on large scales or if AI max is too low, it would always be possible for a setting for server owners to set unloaded combat to 5/10/25/100/etc of regular loaded sim speed to cut load down.

      Wrong, it's both. Galaxies will be cut down to one and the number of important systems in that one galaxy will also be cut down.

      I don't know what you mean by "defending a 'death match' style of gameplay." Can you elaborate?

      No, even with vanilla mining bonus, you can get a multi-million block ship in a few days.

      How can something happen to your one man faction while you're offline in MP? You can't be attacked, you don't have to worry about your members being ambushed or undocking for a fight they will lose, and even if you're on a reversed FP config you can survive off reserves and home system FP generation for literal months. The only threat is a blockade, but those can always be dealt with with big enough missile turrets on your base or some Torch&Warhead sabotage, and they can't actually hurt you, just be annoying.
       
    17. RedAlert_007

      RedAlert_007 [Insert generic custom title here]

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      Schine Defence Force has been deployed on thread!



      In regards to the discussion seperate balancing for SP and Multiplayer, LecicLecic has basicly hit the nail on the head. SP and Multiplayer for multiple reasons are two different games, they are already different in several aspects. Seperate balancing for factions and empires are needed.

      The best analogy I can think off would be you playing an FPS game's campaign, you get your hands on weapons that would be blatantly overpowered in multiplayer at almost every stage of the singleplayer campaign. To prevent said weapon from being overpowered in MP, they change the firerate to be a 4 round burst as opposed to fully automatic for example.

       
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    18. Arkudo

      Arkudo Somtaaw

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      Seriusly or you have a direct connection with Schine and those guys are lying to us or you need to clean your "crystal ball".

      From the first post:


      With the interactions that we have had in this thread it seems that you are not able to see beyond mining and interacting with other players. What you can and can not do with npcs does not seem to be important to you.

      And usually the "death macht" games are based on "resources"[Weapon, money, other not combat oriented stuff] + interaction with other players[Tactics, camaraderie, butchers].


      Errr what? you are confusing me, i said: Please do not use "the minig time" as example of 1 man faction are not hard. [Remember high retarded mining bonus of the servers.]

      And you answer to me that? If you were so kind to tell me where I said that mining is difficult or something like that you will do me a favor to understand your point.

      That depends on which player stage of knowledge is that one man faction or if you need to get some extra sector to do not lose the homebase protection at negative faction points server.[Is not the same a newie that do not dock the ships than a paranoid player that dock everythings, i suposse the second example do not need an explanation about what can be happened when you log off.]


      That sounds totally dramatic, surprisingly that can also happen while you're connected, and I do not understand how you're going to worry about something that you do not know if it happened while you're offline


      That depends on the configuration of that server and the time you take accumulating points, but remember if you get enough times killed on one of those servers and the atackers do not let rebuild the lost sectors, sooner or later you are going to lose the Homebase protection.


      Another facepalm moment.

      A Blockade? Hahahhahha managed with humans or the AI?[Seriusly a blockade? is that a Roleplay stuff?]

      The human one if the Homebase is prepared[Nice dps and invulnerability] are going to jump away.[If not there are other alternatives.]
      The AI is only trowing blocks to another player unless a human operator is nearly to give some orders.



      And Singleplayer and Multiplayer are diferents because? [Let me guess: you are not playing alone!]

      Can you type these differences in different aspects? please enlight me.[That sounds like as an empty speech whithout an explanation.]

      Let to be seriuos RedAlert_007RedAlert_007 the only thing you want that separation is because when the need of getting more than 1 territory you do not want some loners with enough time start eating your pie. I am correct?

      PD: What is that stuff about Schine defense force?[Are you from Schine?]
       
      #78 Arkudo, Aug 14, 2017 at 10:28 AM
      Last edited: Aug 14, 2017 at 10:34 AM
    19. RedAlert_007

      RedAlert_007 [Insert generic custom title here]

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      In singleplayer, the minute you decide to quit playing for the night, the world stops, nothing happens while you are away. In addition, you have much more control of the universe you inhabit, you are not limited by static config options set by the server admins, not restricted by rules and for all intents and purposes, you are the mad god that can shape the galaxy and all events that occur in it at your will.

      In multiplayer however, you are given a set of rules, a config and a universe shared by several other players, each with their own goals and what not in mind. When you log off for the night, the universe keeps going, things can happen to you while you are not playing, people who are playing alongside you can loose your factions flagship and you won't find out until you log back on or he/she tells your beforehand. In multiplayer, you are less worried about NPCs and more about players.

      Actually, I am interested in seperate balancing for singleplayer and multiplayer because they are different and need different things in development to accomidate for them.

      I am not supporting the idea because I have some kind of hidden agenda or some dumb conspiracy that you made up in your head to try and give your argument more weight, the faction I was once apart of had no need for expansion with the specific exception of reverse FP servers, Vaygr was, and still is more than capable of becoming the dominant political power of an entire server while controlling a single system on a permanent basis. Worth nothing that I left Vaygr as of yesterday, so I have no reason to be promoting some kind of hidden agenda.


      This can also happen to factions with several members, 1 man factions have it no worse then multi-man factions in that scenario.

      A leader of a multi-man faction can log on after he goes to sleep to find an uninformed newbie who did not know of a diplomatic agreement with a faction has caused a war to break out that would bring on the destruction of his faction.

      One man factions do not have to worry about this.

      Its almost impossible to prevent defenders from reclaiming lost sectors unless you want to be running 24/7 patrols.

      Also, you cleary have not player on reverse FP servers, as someone who has, the reverse FP servers that have come and go throughout StarMades development are either too generous to the point where someone can gain enough FP reserves in less than a weak to not have to worry about replacing lost claims for months if they come under siege (Elwyn Infinity, Stars of Arcadia) or too unforgiving to where its extremely difficult to survive your first 24 hours whenever you are a 1 man faction or not. (Elwyn Returnity)


      That fact that you do not understand the dangers that a blockade can present in both reverse FP and normal FP servers is a testemony to your knoweldge on multiplayer PvP.

      If you want to participate in conversations on multiplayer balance and PvP, you need to have at least some idea of what you are talking about. You cannot argue against string theory when you don't know anything about physics.
       
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    20. Arkudo

      Arkudo Somtaaw

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      RedAlert_007RedAlert_007

      Thx for the definitions about Singleplayer and Multiplayer, if you understood what you typed you must understood that a one man faction playing on multiplayer needs to manage much better the time that uses over a server that can not pause.[As i said play alone is HARD Because you need to invest more time than if you were not alone. A MP server is not going to close for that Loner. ]

      Hidden agenda? Seriusly check again what i type.


      Yeah totally true, a player can lose a ship if he do not do stuff propperly, if a faction have 2 or more players can lose 2 or more ships.


      If the leader of that faction gave enough rank to the newie so that can be happen is the leader fault not the newie.


      Thank you for helping me defend my point of view. Do you think that it is easier to perform when alone or with more players in the same faction?


      I think you have another crystal ball that needs to be cleaned, My main server at this current date post is The Australian one that have reversed faction points, the previous to that was the Minimade server, on both server when you get killed you lose more than the normal FPs lost.

      Nobody can play this game 24/7 since that is true 1 man faction that are at war with a faction that has users in different time slots, sooner or later is going to lose the Homebase invulnarebility for not having enough factions points, the only stuff we can discuss about that is the time that is required for that. [Congrats for the first open logic fallacy if you need an explanation about why only ask.]


      Dangers of blockades? JAJAHHAHAHJAHA [Seriously please stop with that stuff, if is some Roleplay stuff please say it.]

      I have been seen "blockades" over other players since 2014, and those VS a "prepared" [Really you want i explain better what is a preapred HB?] homebase are totally useless, the only thing that make it usefull [Atleast in the past] Is that they do not allow log in the user who is suffering them. [But that depends on the server.]


      An another logic fallacy buddi [You can not claim that I am excluded from participating in this thread because you say that I have no idea what I am talking about, based on the example of someone does not know of string theory without being physical]

      Remember the topic of the discussion:

      Some users do not want "One man faction" players stay at Imperial Stage, In changes others are in favor.

      Some users want a "balance" with that when they are enough blind to not understood that the "one man faction" has the handicap of being alone.[The Loner needs to invest more time to get similar results as if he was not alone]
       
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