Salvage Turrets

    Should we add salvage turrets


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    Yes, this is what it sounds like. The basic idea of a "salvage turret" is a docked entity that fires salvage beams at the nearest sources of minerals. A new option could be added into the Bobby AI as well. When you select the turret option a couple boxes show up to select either a normal turret or a salvage turret and maybe even and option for the turret to aim for only resources, only terrain blocks, or both. This would increase quality and ease of mining as well as allow multitasking while performing this usually dreadful task for most players. Salvage turrets could also increase design choices as with the current system the only way to mine efficiently is to make a thick wall of salvage beams, and that can be really difficult to make look at least decent.
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    Actually, this is already possible. All it takes is a little logic work.

    To build a salvage turret...


    - Build your salvager array and dock it to your turret base.

    - Build a small logic clock (a NOT and a DELAY), link them to each other then start the clock by activating the DELAY. They'll start to flash back and forth.

    - Place a WIRELESS and an AND.

    - Slave the AND to the WIRELESS and the DELAY. The AND should remain off if the WIRELESS is off but will flash on and off when the WIRELESS is on.

    - Slave the Salvager computer to the AND. Now the Salvager should fire when the Wireless causes the AND to light up.

    - On the main ship; place a WIRELESS and a REMOTE. Link them to each other, then link the ship's WIRELESS to the Turret's WIRELESS. Now you can fire your salvager turret from the hotbar.


    To make your turret aim at asteroids.

    - On the salvager array; add a Bobby AI, a cannon computer with one cannon block.

    - Dock a small entity to the array that completely covers the cannon and blocks its fire.

    - On the salvager array; set the AI to "selected target" and it will use the cannon computer to "attack" your target but should be blocked by the extra entity you just connected.

    - Slave the Bobby AI to the WIRELESS you previously installed. Now you can activate the AI and the salvage beams with the same hotbar button.

    You now have an AI controlled (with all the associated pros and cons) salvager turret which will target asteroids, derelict stations and planet plates. Unfortunately, it does not target overheating ships/structures. Then again, no other AI turret does.
    Mining Turret.jpg
     
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    Dr. Whammy, thanks for the knowledge, you are very helpful. However, to most "casual" players this is not at all just a "little" logic. I've been playing for about two months now and this is still a little confusing to me. Adding my suggestion would make an already complicated game a lot simpler for many people.
     
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    Actually, this is already possible.
    Nice. Now if only we could transfer cargo through turret docks... it used to be possible with more logic trickery bordering on the exploity, but AFAIK this has been patched out.
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    Dr. Whammy, thanks for the knowledge, you are very helpful. However, to most "casual" players this is not at all just a "little" logic. I've been playing for about two months now and this is still a little confusing to me. Adding my suggestion would make an already complicated game a lot simpler for many people.
    You are welcome and I agree; there are quite a few things in this game that should be simplified. For whatever reason, the developers haven't gotten around to it yet. Until those guys get the lead out, our only option is to build toward the (true) limitations of their game to add the features we want.

    With that having been said, I do understand that this is easier said than done. In the mean time, there are plenty of builders who will help you if you need it. Just say the word.

    Nice. Now if only we could transfer cargo through turret docks... it used to be possible with more logic trickery bordering on the exploity, but AFAIK this has been patched out.
    Previously, I was using the "personal; cargo" option in the inventory screen as a way of emptying the salvager turret's cargo into the main ship. It worked but limited you to being able to empty only one turret. Now that we have the new load/unload rails, we might have a better option. Although to be fair, I haven't played with those yet.
     
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    Actually i have an idea regarding unloading turrets. Hypothetically you could put a small amount of thrusters on the turret, nothing fancy, just to move it a couple blocks. Then you detach the turret through some logic(if its possible) or manually. Then order the turrets to re-attach at a pickup point a few blocks away. Once its picked up it goes down a rail line until it stops at a unload blocks to be unloaded, and then it resumes its way down the line until it hits the turrets axis block and can continue being a turret. Im not sure if this will work or not just a quick idea from a n00b
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    Actually i have an idea regarding unloading turrets. Hypothetically you could put a small amount of thrusters on the turret, nothing fancy, just to move it a couple blocks. Then you detach the turret through some logic(if its possible) or manually. Then order the turrets to re-attach at a pickup point a few blocks away. Once its picked up it goes down a rail line until it stops at a unload blocks to be unloaded, and then it resumes its way down the line until it hits the turrets axis block and can continue being a turret. Im not sure if this will work or not just a quick idea from a n00b
    Noob or not, it's an interesting idea. The funny thing is, it might actually work... Here is an example of someone who really knows their way around rails. Provided he's using turret axis docks; perhaps his methods could be adopted to suit your needs.

    I've not tried to undock a turret using logic yet but I can tell you that pickup points and rails did work for me when docking them; although the process was very tedious and buggy. I lost a lot of hair doing it. :mad:

    Nowadays, it would be much faster and easier to set your ship's cargo hold as "personal cargo" in the inventory screen, use your middle mouse button to shift between the turrets on your rig, open their cargo and then move all your items to your "personal cargo" using shift-click.
     
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    Noob or not, it's an interesting idea. The funny thing is, it might actually work... Here is an example of someone who really knows their way around rails. Provided he's using turret axis docks; perhaps his methods could be adopted to suit your needs.

    I've not tried to undock a turret using logic yet but I can tell you that pickup points and rails did work for me when docking them; although the process was very tedious and buggy. I lost a lot of hair doing it. :mad:

    Nowadays, it would be much faster and easier to set your ship's cargo hold as "personal cargo" in the inventory screen, use your middle mouse button to shift between the turrets on your rig, open their cargo and then move all your items to your "personal cargo" using shift-click.
    Question: Can't we just use logic to replace a rail with another (rail rotator-cargo unload), even for turrets? And if not, just place a rail next to the turret rail so the turret moves one rail to the side and back after unloading? Might need to activate the turret again, but this can be done by logic too.
     
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    come on, salvage turrets are too easy...rail and ship based drift/strip/blade minning is overall just as good anyway ...
    [doublepost=1510354988,1510354659][/doublepost](anyway with AI the way its, do you really want to sit and watch for 15 mins while a turret consistently misses an asteroid, or aims through the same exactly empty space again, and again, and again, and..... - drones can shift center of mass relative to changing center of mass of asteroid, but turrets can only change fire angle..therefore high chance of holes > once hole is formed (ie no further change in center of mass of asteroid), then turret will keep firing into empty space ...,,,:/ - at that point the pilot has to move the ship, in which case one might as well be using a drift-miner rather than salvage turrets ...)
     
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    come on, salvage turrets are too easy...rail and ship based drift/strip/blade minning is overall just as good anyway ...
    [doublepost=1510354988,1510354659][/doublepost](anyway with AI the way its, do you really want to sit and watch for 15 mins while a turret consistently misses an asteroid, or aims through the same exactly empty space again, and again, and again
    Great point but thats why you have multiple turrets or even a combo ship. The devs could also just fixed the ai for turrets to fit the needs of a salvage turret
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    Question: Can't we just use logic to replace a rail with another (rail rotator-cargo unload), even for turrets? And if not, just place a rail next to the turret rail so the turret moves one rail to the side and back after unloading? Might need to activate the turret again, but this can be done by logic too.
    When I have time, I may give it a whirl; using the new load/unload rails and see if you can actually change a turret axis in the same way as a rotator.
     
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    Question: Can't we just use logic to replace a rail with another (rail rotator-cargo unload), even for turrets? And if not, just place a rail next to the turret rail so the turret moves one rail to the side and back after unloading? Might need to activate the turret again, but this can be done by logic too.
    When I have time, I may give it a whirl; using the new load/unload rails and see if you can actually change a turret axis in the same way as a rotator.
    It used to be possible, but isn't any longer; I think that option has generally been removed with the un-/load rail update, it definitely isn't possible in the dev builds. AFAIK that was the the sole purpose of introducing the un-/load rails in the first place.
    You can't push/pull cargo through anything other than a docker paired with an un-/load rail, and you can't change turret rails into any other rail, or any other rail into turret rails. You can undock from a turret dock via logic and re-dock via a pickup point just as you can from other rail types.

    In my opinion, using "personal cargo" for anything else besides building, and only as long as ship yards can't be fully trusted, has always felt like more of an exploit to me than abusing logic to circumvent what felt more like an oversight. What's the point of restricting inventory size in astronaut mode, just to lift that restriction with an effectively unlimited "personal cargo" at the same time.
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    It used to be possible, but isn't any longer; I think that option has generally been removed with the un-/load rail update, it definitely isn't possible in the dev builds. AFAIK that was the the sole purpose of introducing the un-/load rails in the first place.
    You can't push/pull cargo through anything other than a docker paired with an un-/load rail, and you can't change turret rails into any other rail, or any other rail into turret rails. You can undock from a turret dock via logic and re-dock via a pickup point just as you can from other rail types.
    Thanks for clearing that up. I figured it may have changed but didn't want to assume.

    In my opinion, using "personal cargo" for anything else besides building, and only as long as ship yards can't be fully trusted, has always felt like more of an exploit to me than abusing logic to circumvent what felt more like an oversight. What's the point of restricting inventory size in astronaut mode, just to lift that restriction with an effectively unlimited "personal cargo" at the same time.
    Yeah; it is kind of 'exploity', but this is currently the only way to get cargo from salvage turrets. Given the benign nature of this practice, I can think of far worse things that we can exploit.

    I'd definitely like to see (effective) salvage turrets become a viable option, I only built these units just to see if I could. It was one of many AI related experiments that rapidly spiraled out of control (in a good way).

    I'll definitely keep playing around with them to see what else I can learn but in the mean time, it's back to the basics for me; modular forward facing, logic operated, salvage arrays. Load up, go mining for a while, head back to base, then swap out for a combat module for some pirate hunting.
    salvager-jpg.18440.jpg
     
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    Some good info here, thanks guys!
    I've tried to make salavge turrets before, but the AI have just refused to co-operate :/ Never knew that you needed to put a blindfold on them to make it work XD
    I must say that mining is still pretty boring though :/ And other players on the server start complaining if you strip mine planets :P
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    Some good info here, thanks guys!
    I've tried to make salavge turrets before, but the AI have just refused to co-operate :/ Never knew that you needed to put a blindfold on them to make it work XD
    I must say that mining is still pretty boring though :/ And other players on the server start complaining if you strip mine planets :P
    Regarding strip mining; Is it the lag they complain about? That's what people whined about whenever I was online. People would fly around in oversized rock gobblers, pretending to be Unicron from Transformers (1984); firing thousands of salvage beams at once. Everyone's ping would skyrocket into the stratosphere and the bitch-fest begins. Giantism at its finest.

    I find strip mining excessive and inconsiderate. Some of my most efficient mining involves drifting with small miners like these.
    starting-miner-jpg.28814.jpg Axis mini-miner.jpg
     
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    For the automated mining part, I, personally, liked a concept where a mining ship gets moved in a checkerboard pattern by logic controlled push modules to fully cover the area of a asteroid.

    But listen guys, another workaround to the turret problem:

    Put the mining array on rail rotators, and move them around with logic. Have an iron sight on your ship, that also draws an outline around the maximum mining range of your rail moved mining gear. (So you have an outer border, where the asteroid has to fit in, but the asteroid has to be within a distance of 200m away from the ship.)

    This fully logic controlled mining gear then rotates towards all the areas of the asteroid, and touches all of it once. If it's not placed on a turret axis, the mining gear can then also be emptied via logic. Isn't that a thing? :D
     

    lupoCani

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    Dr. Whammy, thanks for the knowledge, you are very helpful. However, to most "casual" players this is not at all just a "little" logic. I've been playing for about two months now and this is still a little confusing to me. Adding my suggestion would make an already complicated game a lot simpler for many people.
    I'm hoping to collect suggestions like this and weave into a coherent narrative, but for now, I might as well start small with this one example. This is a symptom of a broader phenomenon.

    The ability to build things in the game vastly outpaces the ability to control them.

    This is just one of many, many machines where we have the machinery to build them (salvager beams, swivel joints, power) but not the systems for controlling them into doing what we need them to do. Any new feature in the game adds machine-building possibilities exponentially, but control systems grow incrementally as the devs work on them. So far, only logic is the exponential sort of versatile system we can use to control a variety of machines as we invent them, and that's subject to heavy limitations. For anything that involves ship positions in space, or player identities, or more data than you can fit in logic blocks on a ship, we're stuck with what the devs take the time to put in the GUI. Thus this, and many other potential inventions, are possible only with hacked-together solutions like above, or not possible at all.

    There are a number of potential, more broad solutions to this general problem, but it's a difficult issue. Do it wrong, and balance suffers from the wealth of new things the devs can't account for, or the dream of ships doing things in unloaded sectors goes out the window because the sheer possibility space outgrows anything the game can predict. I hope to someday write on the relation between these three values - versatility, balance and simulability - and how the game might overcome this. Alas, today is not that day. Consider this the first advertisement, if you will.
     
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    Actually, this is already possible. All it takes is a little logic work.

    To build a salvage turret...


    - Build your salvager array and dock it to your turret base.

    - Build a small logic clock (a NOT and a DELAY), link them to each other then start the clock by activating the DELAY. They'll start to flash back and forth.

    - Place a WIRELESS and an AND.

    - Slave the AND to the WIRELESS and the DELAY. The AND should remain off if the WIRELESS is off but will flash on and off when the WIRELESS is on.

    - Slave the Salvager computer to the AND. Now the Salvager should fire when the Wireless causes the AND to light up.

    - On the main ship; place a WIRELESS and a REMOTE. Link them to each other, then link the ship's WIRELESS to the Turret's WIRELESS. Now you can fire your salvager turret from the hotbar.


    To make your turret aim at asteroids.

    - On the salvager array; add a Bobby AI, a cannon computer with one cannon block.

    - Dock a small entity to the array that completely covers the cannon and blocks its fire.

    - On the salvager array; set the AI to "selected target" and it will use the cannon computer to "attack" your target but should be blocked by the extra entity you just connected.

    - Slave the Bobby AI to the WIRELESS you previously installed. Now you can activate the AI and the salvage beams with the same hotbar button.

    You now have an AI controlled (with all the associated pros and cons) salvager turret which will target asteroids, derelict stations and planet plates. Unfortunately, it does not target overheating ships/structures. Then again, no other AI turret does.
    View attachment 46071
    theres other options to prevent the turret from damaging the asteroid while it mines.
    1. you could orient the cannon computer in another direction. The games AI can only see forward but will stupidly attempt to shoot at targets even if all of its weapons are facing other directions.
    2. link the cannon computer to a non damaging effect like Stop, EMP, Ion.
    now the only thing that will be a hassle is transferring the cargo to the main ship.
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    theres other options to prevent the turret from damaging the asteroid while it mines.
    1. you could orient the cannon computer in another direction. The games AI can only see forward but will stupidly attempt to shoot at targets even if all of its weapons are facing other directions.
    2. link the cannon computer to a non damaging effect like Stop, EMP, Ion.
    now the only thing that will be a hassle is transferring the cargo to the main ship.
    It's not about damaging the asteroid. It's about triggering war declarations (and the possible destruction of your ship) because your AI turrets shoot whatever you select or whatever crosses their line of fire.

    1) Regardless of where the cannon aims, there's always a possibility that it will fire stray shots and hit someone. Sure; it won't actually do anything but...

    2) Non-damaging weapons can trigger unwanted war declarations with neutrals and friendlies. I once had a visiting player who tried using a "tractor beam" (damage beam with 100% pull effect) to pull a crashed satellite from my space dock. My turrets immediately turned around and shot the crap out of him with missiles; nearly destroying his ship.

    Adding a "safety" to your salvager array is a small price to pay if you want to avoid an accidental war declaration. Just my .02
     
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