Power System Overhaul Proposal

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    Gasboy

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    The new system will be less tedious for function, aesthetics, and for combining them. This is because you don't have solid masses of dissimilar blocks that you have to gut and replace (or visually filter as some have suggested) to change anything. There is absolutely something wrong with all of these ships. You can't see what's going on inside at all. To change anything you just about have to redo everything besides power and weapons.
    That's not an issue with the ships, it's an issue with the game not giving you a way to look inside easy.

    My here makes suggestions for tools that we need. One of them is a way to know what's inside our ship and where it's located, and easy ways for us to change stuff out.
     
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    One way or another the ai for this game is going to get redone, and be used as a fleet. If you want to build massive powerful ships and not be totally helpless against a large fleet of smaller more annoying ships, maybe we should redo power at this point. Starmade has a huge problem with stats defined per entity. I think systems should limit themselves individually that way we don't have this meta of drones swarm rear its ugly head when we get competent AI.
     
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    Power cores should work like this: Smaller cores, lower heat threshold, greater saturation (Faster growth of heat %), but greater rates of heat dissipation. Larger cores have the opposite, slower saturation, higher threshold, slower dissipation. When you get larger, you can use larger weapons without spikes in power draw overheating the reactor, but you need to start attaching cooling mechanisms or it will gradually overheat.

    This reduces the barrier for noobs (Make a small ship, plop down a nice square/cube/inverted equilateral triangular pyramid, whatever, place some systems, ???, profit) but makes it have depth at larger levels (Can I get away with one heavily armored core capable of running everything with a minimum of hassle? Do I need several reactors each running different systems to reduce length of power travel?
     
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    but i think with changing this system too drastically you probably would loose a big chunk of playerbase starmade might not recover from.
    obsolete ships are not fun.
    Don't forget, Starmade is still in Alpha. The goal for Schine right now is not to preserve playerbase, the goal is to create the best damn 1.0 version they can. Remember that... someone, I don't remember who (Criss maybe) said that Starmade has not used any of the advertisement runs each game gets for free on Steam. Schine is not attempting to build a playerbase at this time, we're all just alpha testers. If they scare some of us away with their difficult but necessary decisions, so be it, version 1.0 will be better for it.
     

    Valiant70

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    That's not an issue with the ships, it's an issue with the game not giving you a way to look inside easy.

    My here makes suggestions for tools that we need. One of them is a way to know what's inside our ship and where it's located, and easy ways for us to change stuff out.
    It is also an issue with the ships. If I want to modify my weapons, I have to remove the blocks around them. I can't NOT have those blocks because it makes my ship weaker. The same for power, only more so because my entire ship MUST be riddled with power grids. I can't leave the spaces between my power grids open because it makes my ship weaker.
     
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    This sounds awesome, Its exactly what we needed in a ship and I'm sure all temporary pains from transferring over will be easily mended by the mountain of benefits from this new system.

    So, basically to recap:

    A single reactor core now generates power, when a load is connected to the reactor (thrusters, weapons, lights, anything that uses power) the reactor will work to meet those load demands and in turn generate heat. The larger the load on the reactor the more heat it will generate. The larger the reactor core the more efficiently it will generate power. (So, a single reactor block might generate 1% heat/minute to meet 1 power load unit. A single light might require .25 power load unit to function, a very hefty weapon might require 25 power load while charging, this load would multiply by the efficiency of the core to calculate the heat) A reactor core twice the volume would be twice as efficient (this means diminishing returns on size of reactor as the number of blocks scales exponentially while volume scales linearly aka: if you have a 8 block core, 2x more efficiency would require 8more blocks, or to get 4x more efficiency you would need 16 more blocks) The reactor core will also dissipate heat at a certain rate (either based on volume or surface area)

    You must carefully manage the heat of the reactor core. If the heat goes above 100% the reactor core starts taking damage and going into overheat/meltdown. If it takes too much damage blocks on the core will start becoming destroyed - Thus reducing the efficient and further increasing the heat %. This could quickly snowball until your whole core melts down. When complete meltdown happens you would be without power, or worse, in an exploding ship (If the core completely melts down all chambers connected to it might explode) To fight the overheating core you need to power down systems which are loading it, and to fight the exploding core (if you aren't evacuating) you would have to disconnect chambers before complete meltdown to minimize damage at meltdown time. On the other hand, if heat falls to 0% your reaction stops and you or an engineer has to restart the core.

    To manage the heat of the reactor you can build radiator chambers (chambers are various additions which can be built on your ship and connected via a direct line of conduits.) Radiator chambers will increase the cool down rate of the main reactor core (either based on the volume or surface area) Again this would have diminishing returns so you may want to have multiple radiators of medium size than one radiator of huge size. Other chambers are also available which provide other functions. You might be able to take advantage of spillover chambers which will increase heat dissipation at levels at overheating levels to buy you more time during a meltdown. Other chambers may be necessary for powering certain systems, such as thrusters or shields. Furthermore, you may find advanced chambers for even more advanced configurations down the road.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that building chambers too close together could effect their efficiency, you might also consider heat entering the system from a nearby sun or thrusters of other ships. In addition, your crew might be in danger to heat damage when tending to these new systems, more experienced engineers may take less damage when facing heat dissipation from cores or chambers.
     
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    Gasboy

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    It is also an issue with the ships. If I want to modify my weapons, I have to remove the blocks around them. I can't NOT have those blocks because it makes my ship weaker. The same for power, only more so because my entire ship MUST be riddled with power grids. I can't leave the spaces between my power grids open because it makes my ship weaker.
    And they could make it easier to modify your ships. It's not the ship.

    As for making your ship weaker, sure, if you only do PvP. It could put you at a disadvantage.
     
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    so guys I got an idea for the reactors, why not make it so they produce X power, and Y heat per tick, and your systems create Z heat and consume E power. so for a single shot say from a missle bank, you have an efficiency rating which could be calculated as X/Y:E/Z
    so lets say your reactor makes 100 power per tick and 50 heat per tick and your missle bank uses 25 power and 25 heat, so you would have a
    100/50:25/25 ratio. Now lets add in another factor: cooling. So lets say that it is C. and your missle bank cools at 5 heat per tick
    so your equation becomes X/Y-C/tick: E/Z-C/tick. 100/50=2-5=-3:1-5=4. So you get -3:-4 or a 3/4 ratio. And lets say that you can only fire when your systems are cooled to a certain percentage.
    PS. sorry bout the math don't know if it will be right but lets run with it
     

    Gasboy

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    This sounds awesome, Its exactly what we needed in a ship and I'm sure all temporary pains from transferring over will be easily mended by the mountain of benefits from this new system.
    The biggest issue is that it changes one power system for another for little to no gain. One set of cubes and lines for another set of cubes and lines, no real difference.

    I want to explain this further but I'm waiting on someone specifically to reply to this thread, because they explained their reasoning eloquently (Gasboy with a big word, so precocious. <= insidejoke.jpg).
     

    Valiant70

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    And they could make it easier to modify your ships. It's not the ship.
    With the current system, I need to fill in all the gaps. That can't be changed without a new system.

    As for making your ship weaker, sure, if you only do PvP. It could put you at a disadvantage.
    This kind of garbage should not be required to make PVP viable. There should not and need not be a divide between PVP viable ships and ships with aesthetic value. The new system can do both simultaneously with no drawbacks, and is thus objectively better than the current one.
    [doublepost=1486952106,1486952066][/doublepost]
    for little to no gain.
    This is false.
     
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    I say yes.
    could add a bit of interesting internal ship sabotage if you know what I mean.
     

    Spartan4845

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    I complete Agree! We Must Have Reactor Breaches. cause of the Warp Core Breach :D

    ;D

    Lets make these Star Trek Themed Stuff :D

    I have already started making a Logic Working Lights Warp Cores. With then if this New Feature comes out. I will make a Fusion Reactor inside of the Warp Core. Because the Star Trek Warp Cores use Fusion Power to power the Ships.

    Then I might release the Warp Core to the Public.

    Well they have Fusion reactors for back up and auxiliary power. The warp core generates most power for the ship under normal operations since it's just a matter/antimatter engine for the most part.
     

    Gasboy

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    With the current system, I need to fill in all the gaps. That can't be changed without a new system.
    And the new system will have gaps that need to be filled. What's changed, exactly?

    This kind of garbage should not be required to make PVP viable. There should not and need not be a divide between PVP viable ships and ships with aesthetic value. The new system can do both simultaneously with no drawbacks, and is thus objectively better than the current one.
    But there is a divide between the two kinds of ships. It's no different from any online RPG or dota-like game or sandbox game when it comes to PvP. Sure, iron sword and iron armor is perfectly viable in Minecraft combat. But you're going to be at a disadvantage against the guy with diamond armor and a diamond sword.

    You cannot make the two equal, else there's no point in going past iron armor.

    It's the same thing between RP and PvP ships. They are designed differently, for different purposes. Sure, the RP ship could be used in PvP combat. But a PvP ship has the advantage. AND IT SHOULD.

    This is false.
    Oh? So tell me what is added by changing X number of power blocks for Y number of blocks (a smaller number, admittedly) producing the same power? Nothing new. What's the different between Y number of blocks producing the same power as the old X number, and simply changing the amount of power X blocks gives? Everyone changing every last ship they've ever built vs Oh I have no power problems now.
     
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    It's the same thing between RP and PvP ships. They are designed differently, for different purposes. Sure, the RP ship could be used in PvP combat. But a PvP ship has the advantage. AND IT SHOULD.
    Why should it? I don't see any reason for this. Science fiction films show very nice looking ships with full, complete, even comfortable interiors being effective in battle, shouldn't the developers of our science fiction ship building game strive to produce the same experience?

    Pretty ships being capable of the same combat effectiveness as ugly ships takes nothing from ugly ships in their goal of performing as well as possible.
     
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    This thread has gotten way out of control. Honestly the nature of discussing this here is really inefficient. Due to the linear nature of threads We cannot respond in time to the questions at hand.
     
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    I don't do this often, but.. I guess I'll throw my 2 cents in:



    To me StarMade has always been about one thing, creative choice, and I agree power is most certainly the most restrictive system in the game and really does need a revamp. There are 2 questions here and I’m going to tackle each individually as best I can. This does get a bit ramble-y, sorry.

    1) Miniaturization
    I agree power needs to be less restrictive and take up less space, and the current scaling doesn’t really work well, so I’m 100% on board with changing the power system. Cool that’s out of the way, now we can get to the meat of this.

    2) How it’s done
    I agree that power needs to be revamped, and I will agree that the new system proposed is significantly better in the miniaturization department. However, better and best possible are two different things, and while I don’t think I’ve hit on best possible, I believe there is a better solution than what has been proposed.

    First off, the new system is still restrictive, and seems to me to be little different than changing out the old xyz minigame for a new one, and that can be improved upon. If the goal is simply to reduce the size of the generators, upping the power generation per block would do that. I understand the conversion to heat mechanics, and I will cover that, however, on a purely gameplay basis, changing power generation to heat doesn’t change much, it’s just a different name for essentially the same thing and you try to keep the heat bar as low as you can instead of the power bar as high as you can. For all intents and purposes, this is just a relabeling of the mechanic. Currently, the proposed idea is very much like From the Depths, and while FTD is fun, I play StarMade because it is not restrictive, FTD very much is.

    I’m also not convinced that the switch is necessary. Power is understood, and changing that to heat and getting rid of power seems very arbitrary. I do like the idea of introducing heat as another variable, assuming it adds gameplay value.

    Lastly before I go in depth with my own suggestion, I would say that having heat zones around said generators, again seems somewhat arbitrary and restrictive. From my experience almost all if not all moves in starmade thus far have been to increase player choice and freedom, and this seems like a potential step back as increasing the power generation per block of power regen blocks would create the same effect and not have heat zones that people have to work around.

    3) The idea
    So, after a long discussion on twitch with several viewers, we came up with a rather non-fleshed out idea that integrates existing mechanics and allows for both freedom and creativity, while also allowing for miniaturization, as well as integrates the heat mechanic on top of the power mechanic.

    Currently the main mechanic in StarMade is linking, the good old C+V, Logic systems use it, and when weapon systems were redone it allowed for a large amount of customization and player choice while using existing mechanics that players were familiar with. I believe that a similar system for power would be advantageous. Here is how I think it might work:

    First, there would be an extra block added, essentially a computer for each reactor that allows for that reactor to be controlled (a reactor dedicated to shields for instance). Each computer would be hooked up via the linking system like a weapons array for power generation.


    Second, each of these computers would be able to have effect computers as slave systems, just like weapons, to both increase and augment their capabilities. IE, a power reactor with overdrive slave system might produce 3x as much power but at half the speed, and perhaps increased heat generation. Alternatively, a generator with EMP added might mean less power lost from EMP hits or perhaps less heat generated on a given reactor.

    Third, Heat can be used as a balancing factor for these systems and as the trade off for given advantages. When crew is introduced, we will already need living space and access to these areas, so having an engineering bay with power terminals makes sense.

    Fourth, Heat zones in and of themselves aren’t terrible, and while I don’t have a direct problem with them, I also don’t see the point. I can understand the usefulness of having heat as a tertiary stat to balance if it is used to balance more creative freedom with the system like the master/slave system stated above, but on it’s own heat zones just seem a nuisance with no real gameplay value. As It stands, there would already need to be a coolant tank etc, so adding heat zones seems a little over the top, instead having the area immediately around a generator/reactor be optimal space for said coolant tanks makes more sense, again, this means that there are less restrictions for players and more choice, while still giving an “optimal” set of options to guide players in a particular direction.

    TLDR: Power needs to be miniaturized, but it should be done in a way that maximizes choice, not restricts it. The proposed system restricts choice and adds entirely new mechanics, while a master/slave system like we use for weapons would use existing mechanics that players already understand and would maximize options/choice.
     

    Valiant70

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    And the new system will have gaps that need to be filled. What's changed, exactly?
    The new system has gaps that cannot be stuffed with shield capacitators. You can fill them with interiors, or leave them blank.

    Oh? So tell me what is added by changing X number of power blocks for Y number of blocks (a smaller number, admittedly) producing the same power? Nothing new. What's the different between Y number of blocks producing the same power as the old X number, and simply changing the amount of power X blocks gives? Everyone changing every last ship they've ever built vs Oh I have no power problems now.
    Gains:
    • Room to see what's going on
    • Room to add decorations around systems or even on the systems themselves
    • Don't have to remove other systems' blocks to modify a single system
    But there is a divide between the two kinds of ships. It's no different from any online RPG or dota-like game or sandbox game when it comes to PvP. Sure, iron sword and iron armor is perfectly viable in Minecraft combat. But you're going to be at a disadvantage against the guy with diamond armor and a diamond sword.

    You cannot make the two equal, else there's no point in going past iron armor.

    It's the same thing between RP and PvP ships. They are designed differently, for different purposes. Sure, the RP ship could be used in PvP combat. But a PvP ship has the advantage. AND IT SHOULD.
    The comparison to iron and diamond armor does not work. Iron and diamond are two tiers of gear in one system. They are not aesthetic versus diamond. They are good and better.

    If there is space inside ships that cannot be used for systems, RP and PVP ships may be one and the same because... (highlighting as this is the meat of the matter.)

    Under the new system, the choice is between EMPTY and DECORATION. Under the old system, the choice is between PERFORMANCE and DECORATION. This is why it is an upgrade.
     
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    Gasboy

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    Why should it? I don't see any reason for this. Science fiction films show very nice looking ships with full, complete, even comfortable interiors being effective in battle, shouldn't the developers of our science fiction ship building game strive to produce the same experience?

    Pretty ships being capable of the same combat effectiveness as ugly ships takes nothing from ugly ships in their goal of performing as well as possible.
    I'm talking interiors only.

    Please, take a look at the interior of the QEII. And then take a look at a 1940s destroyer. QEII, luxury, wide open corridors, luxurious bunks for passengers and crew. Because they were designed that way, to be pretty inside and comfortable. Now look at the destroyer, cramped, equipment jammed into places, basically hammocks for the crew to sleep in. Because it's dedicated to being a warship, space is a premium.

    The reason why an RP ship is going to be less capable than a PvP ship, and it should, is simply the nature of the block system in the game. You should get more out of your ship if you have put more blocks into it. That's it, plain and simple.

    If they want to move away from the block system, then RP ships and PvP ships will essentially become the same. And that's fine too.

    But you can't really do both using the block system currently as it stands.
     
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    Judging from what has been added to this discussion, its more about less system blocks on your ship than just the power system, its a whole rebuild of every system in the game.

    Instead of filling your ship with shields at the end, it will be the proxy hull "spacesaver" block
    that's what I gather that this system will be in some way also for shields and thrusters. I'm assuming the discussion shouldn't be power system with the old thruster, shield, and passives...but with all the systems changed. my assumption is it will be balanced to the same ratio of blocks say a frigate that has power cap, and power capacity at 25 million. If I remove them and put this system in. It take the same space. Just with far less physical blocks. Some concerns with over complexity of these "heat" void bounding boxes has merit, if it's a headache fitting your interior into these boxes. With thrust and shields also possibly using such void spaces. Might be a lot, even for RP builders. It be nice that room layouts matter a lot more but I can't imagine the system will be smooth as butter and easy to follow. Stray issues like system blocks as interior decor, having the heat box be to big for the room you already made. Changes in how you design a ship. Hull then systems then interior. Making refitting sound not very fun if you start with hull + interior then systems last. It can work. And it sounds great if it does work. But it sounds like a year of updates to make it work....along with fleet, ai, crew, assets, planet rework, other fun galaxy things...

    If this takes to long. It be the same effect as a announced server reset 2 weeks in. Everyone's going to build shells, move to fun logic, not bother anymore optimizing systems, or just leave and may not come back
     

    Valiant70

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    Fourth, Heat zones in and of themselves aren’t terrible, and while I don’t have a direct problem with them, I also don’t see the point. I can understand the usefulness of having heat as a tertiary stat to balance if it is used to balance more creative freedom with the system like the master/slave system stated above, but on it’s own heat zones just seem a nuisance with no real gameplay value. As It stands, there would already need to be a coolant tank etc, so adding heat zones seems a little over the top, instead having the area immediately around a generator/reactor be optimal space for said coolant tanks makes more sense, again, this means that there are less restrictions for players and more choice, while still giving an “optimal” set of options to guide players in a particular direction.
    The heat zones are useful because they make this transition:
    Under the new system, the choice is between EMPTY and DECORATION. Under the old system, the choice is between PERFORMANCE and DECORATION. This is why it is an upgrade.
     
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