Power System Overhaul Proposal

[petlahk]

I think that this new system would be important for making the game more fun, and more varied for everyone. The Devs have more experience with this game than anyone else, they *made it* for heavens-sake. Currently, as it stands, it is virtually impossible to easily balance aesthetics with pvp, and if you want to make a ship balanced between pvp and aesthetics with the current system there is an *incredibly* high, and obtuse learning curve due to the fact that the knowledge required to do that in the current system is that of particulars in the games coding.

The heat system being proposed here would add far more room for expansion of the game. It would make NPCs useful. This new system would make it far easier to build a ship for new players, and casuals (Such as myself.) But, most importantly, this new system would be actually *fun* and *interesting* for a change.

Starmade is full of creative blocks and ideas that are relatively simple, but give the players a ton of diversity to what the player can do. Three of those things are the logic system, the rail system, and the weapon system. The power system, so far, lacks that important element of starmade. As it stands, the power system is woefully boring, and tedious. It isn't fun to have to grind to make thousands of power blocks in order to make your ship even half-decent against pirates, and this is one of the main reasons that I haven't played starmade much in the past few months.

This new system would remove much of that tediousness from the game, and make it interesting, and fun to experiment with your power systems, and really get into the grittyness of what it means to create a functional ship. The learning curve wouldn't be high, it would be relatively straight-forward, and, the game wouldn't be so absurdly grindy for want of needing to make thousands of the same block for even a half functional ship.

Edit: This new power system would finally provide a base from which the game can expand.

 

[Gasboy]

IF you get through to the dev build with this idea, it's pretty much a sign that it's going in, nothing can be done about that. We should have an earlier prototype build of this, perhaps seperate from the rest of the game and it's updates, doesn't even have to be SM itself, lots of games use Unity to trial new features etc.

This is going to change the most fundemental feature of the game, and have knock on effects through out the game, affecting balance not only for ships, but stations. It's going to require everybody to restart the game fresh pretty much. You really shouldn't do this without an actual prototype in the hands of players who can provide early feedback based on actual gameplay, rather than trying to build theories on how it will work, we all know things are going to change as development continues and you find out what's possible.

I second the idea that we should be able to get our hands on a pre dev-build build.

Some of the anger expressed in this thread stems from the fact that everything we've built in the past will now require a rework in order to continue using it. Stations, drones, ships. This is the biggest change in StarMade yet.

 

[Top 4ce]

I'm really glad you posted this. Now, don't take this the wrong way, I'm not attacking you per se, just your way of thinking that is shared by most of the Dock.

We need to get rid of this "you cannot have a pretty and effective PVP ship" meme. It's not true and it hasn't been true for years. There are innumerable examples of great looking PVP ships, both inside and out. Not making your meta minmaxed PVP ship look good is laziness, not a limitation placed on you by the game.

This line of thinking is what I feel has lead to this not very well thought out idea to replace power. RP builders and, in general, people who have not spent much time looking at systems either because they're newer or haven't been exposed to an environment that forces you to have considered this to be fact.

All of us can agree that we want our ships to work well. It's no fun flying an underpowered ship. This sort of suggestion is, at its core, to allow RPers to make their "powerful" ships - an admirable goal, I suppose. The problem is that the mindset is "I will not change, the game must change to suit me" rather than "how can I solve this problem within the framework of the existing system". All it takes is an hour or two of thought into systems, and most of all, EXPERIMENTING! I can't stress this enough. No player who would be considered good at PVP came into this game and won every fight and had a perfect design. What you see is the result of countless designs and tests, countless lost duels and lessons learned. Don't be risk adverse. There is no such thing as losing unless you let yourself lose, only things to learn from.

I like this way of thinking, my thought is that would this new framework encourage or discourage this sort of testing?

My personal issue (done PvP, but not with any consistency) is the amount of volume that systems take up. Its an opinion, and I lean towards the more RP side of things. I do want an effective ship and do test, but I feel like there's a lot of sacrifices that have to be made in terms internal volume that isn't ever seen unless you're being shot at.

This new idea gives the possibly to use more internal volume, while still giving systems efficiency a lot of thought and work.

I do not want a sacrifice of system design and testing for more RP value, but I do want more RP value. So far I think this idea roughly has this in mind.

 

[Criss]

I think it would be really convenient if build mode had a check box to make that block visible/invisible.

Actually, expanding that idea to everything as it stands would be brilliant. Imagine turning off visuals for every block except power systems? Or thrusters. That could help a lot in every version of the game I think.

I will not change, the game must change to suit me" rather than "how can I solve this problem within the framework of the existing system

I asked in the chat. Maybe this will be more clear. Do you agree or disagree with the following problems. This is where the proposal came from. It's not that we haven't tried suiting our styles to the game, it's that the game could potentially be better. It's not bad, but it's not great either.

Problems with the current power system

According to our own experience and player experiences shared on the forums, we have identified the following problems.

1. Forced design choices
2. Lack of complexity
3. Too many blocks involved (number, not types)
4. Focused on regen

We should have an earlier prototype build of this

Pre branch? Or even more separated than that? Pre branch had a lot of NPC faction stuff before it made it to the dev build.

 

[petlahk]

IF you get through to the dev build with this idea, it's pretty much a sign that it's going in, nothing can be done about that. We should have an earlier prototype build of this, perhaps seperate from the rest of the game and it's updates, doesn't even have to be SM itself, lots of games use Unity to trial new features etc.

This is going to change the most fundemental feature of the game, and have knock on effects through out the game, affecting balance not only for ships, but stations. It's going to require everybody to restart the game fresh pretty much. You really shouldn't do this without an actual prototype in the hands of players who can provide early feedback based on actual gameplay, rather than trying to build theories on how it will work, we all know things are going to change as development continues and you find out what's possible.

Seconded. Agreed.

 

[therimmer96]

Pre branch? Or even more separated than that? Pre branch had a lot of NPC faction stuff before it made it to the dev build.

Pre branch? Are you talking about the old pre-release branch? I dunno, didn't even realise that was still getting updates considering dev builds exist.


Regardless, no. I mean take an arbitrary build, one that's fairly stable, create an entirely new "Power Dev" branch and build the power system into that, and release. Only provide minimal support to fix fundamental errors. Every time a change gets to the point where schine wants to test it, they'll have a build to test it on. Continue to develop the base game separately. This way players will be able to test things in a seperate game, and it won't impact on the actual builds of the game until schine finds a solution they like, or decide to abandon the branch.

 

[Criss]

The Devs have more experience with this game than anyone else, they *made it* for heavens-sake

Well some of us maybe. I am not going to say I am the best PvP'er. But when the biggest pvp'ers dismiss the opinions of others it is a problem. Everyone has to build the same way if they want to be decent. If we came to the conclusion that the current system is good enough, then it is only good enough for everyone, no matter how refined their build process is. It's not great, just good enough. I don't want good enough. I think the initial 4 problems laid out in the OP define what is currently wrong very well.

 

[Top 4ce]

Pre branch? Are you talking about the old pre-release branch? I dunno, didn't even realise that was still getting updates considering dev builds exist.


Regardless, no. I mean take an arbitrary build, one that's fairly stable, create an entirely new "Power Dev" branch and build the power system into that, and release. Only provide minimal support to fix fundamental errors. Every time a change gets to the point where schine wants to test it, they'll have a build to test it on. Continue to develop the base game separately. This way players will be able to test things in a seperate game, and it won't impact on the actual builds of the game until schine finds a solution they like, or decide to abandon the branch.

So like a separate idea sandbox build? To try out ideas that might or might not make it into the game?

I like that idea.

 

[therimmer96]

So like a separate idea sandbox build? To try out ideas that might or might not make it into the game?

I like that idea.

Exactly this. Somewhere to fuck around where it won't impact anything. The code doesn't enter a real build until it's confirmed to work in both code and gameplay.

 

[petlahk]

Well some of us maybe. I am not going to say I am the best PvP'er. But when the biggest pvp'ers dismiss the opinions of others it is a problem. Everyone has to build the same way if they want to be decent. If we came to the conclusion that the current system is good enough, then it is only good enough for everyone, no matter how refined their build process is. It's not great, just good enough. I don't want good enough. I think the initial 4 problems laid out in the OP define what is currently wrong very well.

I agree about not settling for "Good Enough". Thank you for replying.

 

[kupu]

Transcript picked out from Chat by Zyrr

A long time ago there was (admittedly archaic) dimensional bonuses to making 5x5x5, 7x7x7, 9x9x9 and 11x11x11 reactors.

This was fantastic for small ships, they didn't have to worry about length and it was far more compact. There is no reason this shouldn't be re-implemented if it can decrease in generation efficiency the larger # you have.

Heat mechanics are great, but not as the sole arbiter of whether or not you can fire.
Tack that onto power generation. For example, longer lines generate more heat, or lots of power in an area.
This encourages spread out power generation.
Add heat to weapons based on fire rate or approximate power usage/damage per shot.
Add a radiator or something else to combat heat. Viola.
You're done, and you don't have to break every ship in existence.

Worth having in here for the discussion i think.

 

[Philiquaz]

A system to creating more complex power-related behaviours without boxes is what we're getting at. It's been pointing out that the boxed system still forces the box design in there; a system of emergent behaviours based on the smallest element would make each "area" more fluid in shape.

God knows how to do that in practise though.

 

[Lecic]

How will it be more difficult? I don't see what exactly makes it more difficult to do.

Because this heat system encourages the creation of chandelier shaped ships, which would be significantly more difficult to incorporate in a variety of aesthetic choices.

The Devs have more experience with this game than anyone else, they *made it* for heavens-sake.

I appreciate your optimism, but I do not think the devs, who spend most of their time coding or creating art assets, know how PvP and the game in general works.

 

[jontyfreack]

i would like for this idea to be tested by players on an alternate build for feedback. because I think it would be good to find a comparison and to see just how it would effect gamaeplay before any permanent changes are made

 

[kingreol]

How will the heat box handle systems used purely for aesthetics. Activation gates for walls is common(Why give us more colors in that texture Please) this could turn people off who build interiors

 

[Tunk]

Not a fan of removing regen/capacity myself, but as long as the numbers are done in a logical way its basically the same in my mind.
Just you renamed it to heat capacity, heat generation and heat dissipation rather than power, power use and regen.

Can dig the new reactor design, but the whole destructive interference with nearby systems has to go.
Basically its enforcing design choices on the player, and unless it is well documented, with warnings and visual aids it is only going to cause confusion and support issues.

It probably won't effect myself and other experienced systems builders however, in the hour I've been awake I've already formulated several work arounds to the whole heat area issue that range from 50% space efficiency to several hundred.

Which given that systems will be scaled back to 5% of the blocks required, well I see insane ships coming out if it isn't tested properly.
Like completely bonkers ships.

Going to need more time to digest it further, but overall looks like new reactor system, renaming power to heat and adding a annoying heat mechanic.

 

[Gasboy]

Because this heat system encourages the creation of chandelier shaped ships, which would be significantly more difficult to incorporate in a variety of aesthetic choices.

How does it encourage "chandelier" ships? Any hulls you've created so far could accommodate the reactor system they've outlined in the original post of this thread. Some you would have to change the internals or externals, possibly, but I am pretty sure most would fit. Are you suggesting that you'd be forced (in that anyone who does not do so cedes the advantage to the people who do) to make such compartmentalized ships that they resemble chandeliers? 'Cause that sounds pretty far-fetched to me.

I appreciate your optimism, but I do not think the devs, who spend most of their time coding or creating art assets, know how PvP and the game in general works.

See, instead of doing it in a backhanded way, which is insulting, why not simply say that?

Also, what suggestions do you have to improve upon the idea? Remember that the devs are trying to solve the issue with power which has existed since pretty much the beginning. Saying to not implement it is not helpful.

 

[Comradecolonel]

I agree that heat as the sole indicator of power is not a good idea. I think heat should remain as a radius around reactor systems and not an actual player resource. Regen and capacity remain considering heat would work the same way. I'm think large single reactors give you more capacity while smaller numerous reactors will give you more regen. Heat mitigating devices would counter the large heat radius as the reactor size increases.

Just some ideas off the top of my head. I think there are many ways that this system could go. The main thing i like is that power will require more thought to place.

 

[Gasboy]

Can dig the new reactor design, but the whole destructive interference with nearby systems has to go. Basically its enforcing design choices on the player, and unless it is well documented, with warnings and visual aids it is only going to cause confusion and support issues.

That was my thought intially: The devs speak of people being forced to build a certain way, annd they come up with a way which essentially forces us to build a certain way.

But look at it more closely. They are giving us a way to have more power on bigger ships to power the pewpewpew and wooosh wooosh wooosh and ZZZZZZZZZZZT. But they are trying to make smaller and medium sized ships still have some advantages in that you don't have to devote as much space to reactors as the big guys do. It's more power in less space than before.

We need to give it a shot, see it in action, maybe try to kill each other with it first... before we can agree to it. But let's not shoot it down before we have had that chance, right?

 

[worms]

Well ...the change is a real pain in the ass, to refit and all but it's needed .Great ideas overall and if we can have an actual crew aboard (functional crew) god starmade going to be an awesome game !