Planned Faction Points Economy

[ZektorSK]

too much words

Now you are making offtopic replies.. please stick with thema.. what I did, was just making fun of Bogdan..

Thank you and have a nice day

 

[Blaza612]

1) No protection of assets

The problem, is that the community just shits all over something that makes it harder for them. I'd rather not have protection, as it's not how war works, but unfortunately one cannot turn the world the other way, so it's there to keep the community satisfied. If I get enough opinions, I shall remove it, as I'm for a lack of protection.

2) No faction points for attacking

But why? What is the reasoning? You say that FP should only be gained over time, and that's how you harvest it. When you attack, you're TAKING the FP. It wont be that much, but it will still be significant enough to be a proper loss. You get FP for defending as well, as it's simply from destroying another's assets.

My only problem with this, is that lawnmower swarms will no longer be that viable. :p

Now you are making offtopic replies.. please stick with thema.. what I did, was just making fun of Bogdan..

But, ba, wha, uh... You moron! D:

Thank you and have a nice day

What was with the max thing! YOU MADE ME CURIOUS! YOU DID THIS TO ME! GAGH!

 

[ZektorSK]

Another big reply of nonsense



What was with the max thing! YOU MADE ME CURIOUS! YOU DID THIS TO ME! GAGH!

Maximálne
Are you satisfied now ?

 

[Blaza612]

Are you satisfied now ?

According to google, it means up? What? I'm even more confused now. :p

 

[Bogdan]

But why? What is the reasoning? You say that FP should only be gained over time, and that's how you harvest it. When you attack, you're TAKING the FP. It wont be that much, but it will still be significant enough to be a proper loss. You get FP for defending as well, as it's simply from destroying another's assets.

My only problem with this, is that lawnmower swarms will no longer be that viable. :p

That is just it. Lawnmover swarms (looking at you dovan empire) will be perfect for this. They will keep attacking protected base and poor small faction will never have enough points to defend it.

 

[ZektorSK]

According to google, it means up? What? I'm even more confused now. :p

 

[Blaza612]

That is just it. Lawnmover swarms (looking at you dovan empire) will be perfect for this. They will keep attacking protected base and poor small faction will never have enough points to defend it.

This is kind of the reason I don't want the protection. But again, I'd rather NOT lose this suggestion. :/

Seriously, your obsession for yourself is probably the most annoying thing about you. Can you plox explain the up thing? It makes literally -3 sense. :p

 

[ZektorSK]

[QUOTE="Blaza612, post: 281272, member: 315826"] wtf qute not working ? :D



Seriously, your obsession for yourself is probably the most annoying thing about you. Can you plox explain the up thing? It makes literally -3 sense. :p[/QUOTE]

How can I explain it to you when you don't even know Slovakian language huh ?

 

[Blaza612]

[QUOTE="Blaza612, post: 281272, member: 315826"] wtf qute not working ? :D



Seriously, your obsession for yourself is probably the most annoying thing about you. Can you plox explain the up thing? It makes literally -3 sense. :p

How can I explain it to you when you don't even know Slovakian language huh ?[/QUOTE]

Google translate did half the work. :p
[DOUBLEPOST=1460892827,1460892777][/DOUBLEPOST]wtf happened with the quote shit? Have a look at the top of the part that I quoted. :p

 

[Bogdan]

*Will resume discussion after I get back from the gym. Hope by then some sense returns to this thread*

 

[StarWars1981]

Is this just another way of claiming systems? If so, then no. The problem here is that you're limiting players to specific areas, if they wish to actually have control of a system. This idea works from a conquest viewpoint only, to which I give credit, but for a game that is going to be so much more than just war and conquest, it really doesn't work. Forcing players to build in specific areas/regions, will always become an annoyance, and just another chore that player will have to deal with, and ultimately damages the flow of the game.

Again, this works in a conquest only environment, and again, I give credit for it. However, Starmade isn't a conquest/war based game. It's based on a dynamic/living universe. With various factions, some that'll specialize in industry, some that'll specialize in war, and some that'll specialize in trade. Because of this, making FP gain come from primarily security in a system ultimately isn't the best idea. It's always a good idea to have security, but making it a necessity again will become an annoyance to players, and will ultimately ruin the overall flow of the game, especially regarding FP.

No. Just simply no. This is not how an economy works. Economies work via cause and effect, with certain groups affecting it in different ways. By having random distribution, we're not giving any FP reward for attacking, completely removing its influence on the many factions, especially those at war. We're opening up the ability to climb the ranks of the economy to pure luck, which simply does not work. It adds yet another barrier to the overall playing of the game, adding another annoyance, and ultimately damaging the flow that is within the economy.

At the first quoted piece above: It's not another way of claiming systems, it's a way to divide it up so that we have a reliable measure of, say, "50%" of a system, and a way to enforce claiming most of it rather than none of it. It limits no one to nowhere, because if you control 4/8 zones, you own the system. This can be done at a corner of the zones, where 4 meet on 1 border. You just need 4 stations of small size. It's not a terrible challenge. And you can even say planets control 1 zone that is not controlled by anything else, no matter where they are, because of their orbit. Also, perhaps first faction to plant 2 "Colonies" - stations or planets meeting the restrictions I outlined above on claiming systems w/ objects - controls a system. This guarantees that something beyond your immortal HB is in-system. Then, perhaps to claim the system from this first faction, you must A. have more stations than they do, B. wreck all theirs and build 1, and/or C. destroy all armed stations/planets and all designated defending fleets (fleets whose assigned role is to defend a sector in the system, be it on the border or inside the star, we don't care). A and C would have to be accomplished together, whereas B would count for both anyways :p.

Second quoted piece: Eh ... a security rating is still appropriate, but I hear you. If it only counts pirates, it's realistic, because HBs (at least on my LAN server ...) get raided by pirates if they're in-system, so it's a pain in the rear to sit around and go about your mining business with pirates in range anyways, xD. Maybe other things get raided, I've only had experience with my HB getting raided. Stupid nuisances have died to the Tab-F8 many, MANY times. And FP doesn't need to be primarily controlled by security. It's just an interesting measure of how good a job you're doing.

A FP reward for attacking is one thing, a FP reward for taking on a protected station while the user is OBVIOUSLY AFK is just a jerk move on two sides. If, perhaps, you are persistent and shoot at it all night, you can slowly steal the FP defending it and slowly reduce its protection timer to the point where you can take it out. Then you get a lot more FP for destroying a hostile (armed ones only, to encourage allowing other factions to build tradestations and mining stations with minimal defenses i.e. shielding only) asset.

Faction points being redistributed around the galaxy means as factions get bigger, exploration becomes more worthwhile. Also, it means that there's no "I own the galaxy, because I control around the spawn and you can't defend your HB if you escape me" thing happening. Because if there are increasing FP costs for going farther from spawn, and somebody takes over everything around spawn, and gets all those FP, there may be no way to establish a new faction, given FP restrictions on keeping your HB defended from this guy with too much time on his hands.
I see what you mean, however; but I don't like the idea of FP all going to one group for ruling the galaxy and wrecking everything they come across. I do like the idea of increasing exploration opportunities, however; so long as there is a way to prevent the galaxy-controlling faction from just ruling it all with a couple dozen blueprinted war stations.

 

[Madman198237]

What? Now my suggestions have to be quoted by someone else to be added? Man, no respect around here.

So, I think that people are missing the point. The idea behind my suggestion for the ability to protect an asset to allow for someone playing, say, the lone ranger from a faction out in deep space playing hide & seek with enemies to protect his vessel so he doesn't have to traverse half the galaxy in order to gain HB protection. So, no need to be in allied space, either.

By the way...no instantly giving FP to anyone who attacks a protected asset. Please, oh please, NO.

So, yes, FP should, as Star and I are arguing for, spread around the galaxy only once it's consumed. Basically, this protection will CONSUME FP, if nobody hangs around long enough to wear down the protection as in Star's suggestion, and the CONSUMED FP will be redistributed in unexplored/uninhabited systems first. Because this adds REASONS to explore, at a basic level, even though it's not perfect.

There should be other ways to use FP that consume it, but that's the biggest one I can think of.

 

[Bogdan]

A game can not die if it keeps receiving updates.
The community can become small, but it will keep existing.


And my take on the PvP vs PvE debacle is: why not let the faction decide if they want PvP or not?
Let them have the options:
Peaceful: nothing can attack your homebase sector and you can not attack anyone elses.
Survival: Pirates can attack your sector, but no player can. Nor can you attack anyone elses sector.
Challenge: Everyone can attack your homebase sector and you can attack others with the same option selected.

Changing the option takes 24 hours.

So you can set it to peaceful when you start, move up to survival when you get turrets on your base, change to challenge when you have titans and a giant base.

And with "nothing can attack" I mean either do 0 damage on all weapons or can't fire anything inside the faction homebase sector.

I liked this suggestion on another thread. Maybe this can be implemented somehow as the protection we spoke off?

 

[MDJinRoh]

This is a good idea , but will lead people to move further away into Space to avoid battles, exeeding the Serverlaggs.

 

[Blaza612]

I liked this suggestion on another thread. Maybe this can be implemented somehow as the protection we spoke off?

This is actually a great idea. Something that could be a possibility would be having two options that can be changed in the server config. Of course, it will use the three modes suggested, except HB wont become immediately vulnerable on challenge mode, you'd still have to take the system first.

Option A) The faction is moved into the later modes automatically, based on either a military rating (As StarWars1981 suggested) or FP, where if either gets to high enough of a level, then the faction advances into the next mode thing. Once a faction advances into the next mode, it cannot go back a mode, preventing the current problem with war. I would personally prefer this, because I believe that no matter what, ANYTHING can be attacked or killed. It simply makes the world feel more real or "authentic" to me I guess, but regardless, I'd prefer this be the default.

Option B) Factions can choose to advance whenever they feel as though they're ready. The standard 24 hour timer between changing will still be in effect, and factions can play EXACTLY to their hearts content on these servers, which would probably be RP servers.

but will lead people to move further away into Space to avoid battles

How exactly does this discourage PvP?

What? Now my suggestions have to be quoted by someone else to be added? Man, no respect around here.

:p

So, yes, FP should, as Star and I are arguing for, spread around the galaxy only once it's consumed

No. NO! That's not how an economy works! A cause and effect system leaving the gain of FP from actions to complete chance is NEVER a good idea. It doesn't work. In a case where it isn't an economy that has limited FP overall, it could work, but even then it's a bad idea. It's pretty much the YouTube Red fiasco, except rather than having a cause determine where the money goes, THE MONEY GOES IN ANY RANDOM DIRECTION! It just doesn't work, at all. I'm sorry, but it simply doesn't.

 

[Madman198237]

Really? What is the problem with randomly redistributing FP around unexplored systems? Making note of the fact that these FP points have already been consumed, unless we want to make it free to protect assets (By way of refunding "undamaged" FP after the asset is protected) or make it profitable to camp and attack all your enemies' protected assets. Tell me, which one is worse?



An alternative, however, is original (On galaxy generation) FP distribution in each system based on the system's complexity, but also some elements of chance. I'm really trying to get exploration to be beneficial, as opposed to just a way to get away from the center of the galaxy where all the established factions are.


We need a method to introduce true cost into the system, while not handing out benefits and not losing our supply of limited FP. Perhaps, instead of the original faction losing lots of FP when it loses fleets or stations, it loses half the cost paid to the aggressor, and the aggressor gets the other half from this pool of consumed FP?

 

[ZektorSK]

It is kinda weird dicsuss about planned thingie, don't you think ?

 

[Blaza612]

I liked this suggestion on another thread. Maybe this can be implemented somehow as the protection we spoke off?

This is actually a great idea. Something that could be a possibility would be having two options that can be changed in the server config. Of course, it will use the three modes suggested, except HB wont become immediately vulnerable on challenge mode, you'd still have to take the system first.

Option A) The faction is moved into the later modes automatically, based on either a military rating (As StarWars1981 suggested) or FP, where if either gets to high enough of a level, then the faction advances into the next mode thing. Once a faction advances into the next mode, it cannot go back a mode, preventing the current problem with war. I would personally prefer this, because I believe that no matter what, ANYTHING can be attacked or killed. It simply makes the world feel more real or "authentic" to me I guess, but regardless, I'd prefer this be the default.

Option B) Factions can choose to advance whenever they feel as though they're ready. The standard 24 hour timer between changing will still be in effect, and factions can play EXACTLY to their hearts content on these servers, which would probably be RP servers.

Protection is changing, as Bogdan came up with a really good way of doing it. Regardless, I shall still answer to this.

make it profitable to camp and attack all your enemies' protected assets

This is to prevent factions from using it indefinitely. Having something that actively benefits an enemy faction is a GREAT deterrent to using something, even if it is protection. It's all apart of the cause and effect. By making it that a faction setting up protection is a direct cause of another faction gaining FP, it adds the requirement of thought to be put into protection. Is it really worth it? I might lose FP, sure, but they'll get it too. They're my allies, so why don't they attack our protected stuff in secret to help out the war. Do you see where I'm coming at? Removing the pool and randomness simply removes the predictability and strategising that players can achieve.

but also some elements of chance

Removing predictability from an economy is what kills and economy. In this case, it's harder to kill, because there can be no more FP generated or destroyed. It's all left to chance, in a horridly unbalanced and broken system.

I'm really trying to get exploration to be beneficial

How does the FP system have ANYTHING to do with making exploration beneficial? If one wants to make exploration beneficial, then you add actual rewards, such as relics and technologies and lore and such.

pool

Seriously, just stop with the pool idea. It simply doesn't work for an economy. The economy that's been designed here was designed specifically around a cause and effect system, which allows a LOT of strategising and work when it comes to factions, from war to politics. In a different FP system to this, the pool idea could be great! But for this, it isn't. If there's one thing I want to be complicated, it's FP. Why? Because FP is a direct link to the politics of the factions. The FP will have a direct influence on how many different situations will be played out, making the world so much more interesting by adding so many possibilities. And economy system is robust, stable and flexible for maximum enjoyment, and unfortunately, the pool idea simply takes away from it.
[DOUBLEPOST=1460982080,1460981988][/DOUBLEPOST]

It is kinda weird dicsuss about planned thingie, don't you think ?

No, no it isn't. As SkylordLuke said (pls come back, I would like the council's opinion on this) there are parts of this that are new. The general idea is planned, but the devil is in the details. As the details continue to be fleshed out, more and more depth is added to the suggestion, completely justifying the discussion of a planned suggestion. :p

 

[ZektorSK]

This is not even a discussion... this is literally hassle, about who has the truth.

Ryuko is just waiting, when this thread become death, and then, she will pour all life fibers, to capture this thread :D

 

[Blaza612]

This is not even a discussion... this is literally hassle, about who has the truth

:p

Ryuko is just waiting, when this thread become death, and then, she will pour all life fibers, to capture this thread :D

First of all, again, your obsession with yourself and Ryu. Seriously, just bang already. You'd get much more satisfaction. :p

Second of all, I'd rather not piss off the mods, again. So I'll try to keep this from becoming even slightly flamey (Even then I'm overstepping my bounds a bit, pls don't hurt me). :p