Economic Brainstorm

[MacThule]

Spoiler alert: this thread will probably be bumped from time to time to continue the discussion.

Premise: The in-game economy affects gameplay as much as engineering issues affect it, particularly in Multi-Player:

• It affects players' willingness to risk assets in competitions and conflicts, which affects how much player-generated content will be created every day.
  
• It affects factions ability to recruit and retain members who will actually work, for rewards.
• It affects the viability of players taking on roles like 'Miner,' 'Trader,' 'Industrialist,' or 'Engineer' in a profitable, sustaining and fun, rewarding way.

Without a functional economy, every player's best bet is to simply be an all-in-one miner/refiner/manufacturer/engineer/warrior because bringing on other players only involves risk - no reward. When every player means economic increase for the faction without forcing players into labor below market rates, teamwork becomes profitable. With stick shops and NPC shops that trade below cost at the pure value of raw materials, this is impossible and is a major faction in discouraging faction-based play in Multi-Player modes. Players cannot sustainably exist on just the income from mining, trading, engineering, or production, and so factions cannot be built around these activities.

How is this fixed?


We need ALL the ideas.


My idea is scrapping stick shops & old-style tradestations, and making NPC factions the backbone of the early-game economy, but with prices that reflect the cost of maintaining factories, fleets, and other infrastructure - not just the raw material cost. This way players can compete on price in sale of materials and play the market. The economy of a mature MP server should be mostly player-generated. It is very complex though, and I think we should really brainstorm all the relevant economic factors in game to come up with a detailed 'Proposal' for Schine to overhaul their economic model. Galaxy update is a ways off, but this is clearly the time to look at such core issues, and our input can have an impact if it's relevant and able to be implemented within context of the existing code (and expected changes for the pre-beta update).


NOTE: This thread is intended for discussion of how the game engine affects the economy and what changes could or should be made by developers, not a solicitation for in-game work-arounds to get around the troubled economy.

 

[MilitantCollective]

Perhaps you should check out the FOW discord. Ares Initiative has balanced the economy and configs to where specialization have purpose. One cannot simply spam cores anymore

No NPCs, shops, a player run economy.

 

[MacThule]

Sounds good. Are the full details up on that somewhere, in a format to bring into a discussion of default economics?

 

[NeonSturm]

Spoiler: RL and SM comparision

Real life:

Taxes: 16% on sold products + 30% on income + 30% insurances + 90% living costs = low possible gain per year.

Bank / Credit institute: Only state and allowed institutes with enough money-power in their heritage line.

Wealth distribution: Some peoples have so much money that they buy a plane for hundreds of million dollars (billionaires).
Others work and work and work and gain not enough to buy their own home.
Everything is at risk to be taken away by law changes and job loss.
But you get basic insurance in theories until someone decides to put jews into KZ or you are hit by psychopathic diagnosis and go into psychiatric station of not so much better life quality or simply your case isn't covered.

Prices: You can make any price you want, as long as you can sell it under proprietary rights and enough peoples are interested.
But most peoples never find jobs that give more than basic living value without unhealthy work conditions or "exceptional luck".

​

StarMade:

Taxes: Only on stations = exponential grow until you reach some limit like asteroid size + travel time to new one, etc.

Bank / Credit institute: Everyone can make an own one.

Wealth distribution: The longer you play, the more you get.
Everything outside homebase may be taken away.
Everything is at risk to become obsolete by a new code update.
But you can start almost like anew when no faction is chasing you down on that server.

Prices: Everyone demanding a little bit higher price to get paid for labor gets under-bet by stick shops.
You can make nothing others can't do themselves.
If your ship looks good, others still want their own ones and creative mode and real-life copy-able inspirations allows it.​

The way I would implement if I had code-access + social-support:

Every faction has it's own loyalty.
Loyalty has a "timestamp+factionID" which is used as "currency-ID"
Loyalty is divided among "Vouchers".

Vouchers are "Recipient / His-Chosen-Merchant" + "Database-ID" + "Password/Key" + "Value".
Sum of (Faction-Worth * 20%) cannot be exceeded by Sum of (Voucher value).
Else inflation occurs.
Inflation causes an exchange rate to a new "timestamp+factionID" - a new currency.

Faction can thereby control by exchange rates who still owns valid vouchers, claim taxes, reserve some value for vouchers of another currency, etc.

Factions must be selfish by 80% and 20% is community contribution.
Community contribution should ensure balance, reward their bakers when possible or required for survival and put bounty on those damaging the faction.

____
The factions are responsible for being reasonable.
They must back up every action with plausible reasons so that others do not blame them for loss of their voucher value but to blame the reasons that pushed them to lower voucher value.
Helping them charging the cause for repayment.​

 

[nulitor]

Personally all the servers that removes stick shops just ends up having the players doing everything by mining and crafting and did not result into that fabled "economy" because in fact for economy to arise we need the players to have different needs from each other and that does not usually happens because everyone either needs small amounts of some materials that are not really hard to get for their decorations or masses of stuff that is easily craft-able from base materials that are considered to have such value that you will not get them by selling other stuff and so you mine directly for it.
For an economy to arise we need to have stuff that both interests only specific players and that is needed in great amounts(or else either the player will go and mine for it or if he asks for someone to sell him that product the merchant is making itself poorer by spending time doing the transaction instead of mining more)
Okay there is the uncraftable parts that you can drop on pirates like purple dirt but they are so ugly.

 

[Skwidz]

Just add starbucks

 

[NeonSturm]

Personally all the servers that removes stick shops just ends up having the players doing everything by mining and crafting and did not result into that fabled "economy" because in fact for economy to arise we need the players to have different needs from each other and that does not usually happens because everyone either needs small amounts of some materials that are not really hard to get for their decorations or masses of stuff that is easily craft-able from base materials that are considered to have such value that you will not get them by selling other stuff and so you mine directly for it.
For an economy to arise we need to have stuff that both interests only specific players and that is needed in great amounts(or else either the player will go and mine for it or if he asks for someone to sell him that product the merchant is making itself poorer by spending time doing the transaction instead of mining more)
Okay there is the uncraftable parts that you can drop on pirates like purple dirt but they are so ugly.

How about introducing a meta-item for that?

It's an alloy with unique name required for building a certain blueprint.
This alloy is a special type of ore you can only mine in a few sectors from the faction that introduced the blueprint.
Like blockidX would be always same, but it is the only item (like unique logbooks text content) with which you can fill that blueprints hull.

Ofc, when it's constructed, you can salvage it and get base ore, but not reconstruct it until you trade materials in that faction for the specific alloy.

EDIT: It wouldn't be stronger/worse or cheaper than basic/standard/advanced hull. But a special trade commodity. You can always make your own designs.

 

[nulitor]

How about introducing a meta-item for that?

It's an alloy with unique name required for building a certain blueprint.
This alloy is a special type of ore you can only mine in a few sectors from the faction that introduced the blueprint.
Like blockidX would be always same, but it is the only item (like unique logbooks text content) with which you can fill that blueprints hull.

Ofc, when it's constructed, you can salvage it and get base ore, but not reconstruct it until you trade materials in that faction for the specific alloy.

EDIT: It wouldn't be stronger/worse or cheaper than basic/standard/advanced hull. But a special trade commodity. You can always make your own designs.

I was more thinking of having each faction pick one special option in a list and have the right to use a faction specific bloc.
so it could be a list with:
1:Lava reactor(some kind of part done with a lot of lava and which have some useful properties)
2:fusion rudisplork(see lava reactor but it would have different good properties and would need water to be built)
3:cactus potato(see fusion rudisplork but different and needs cactus)
and your faction would pick one and you would not be able to use the others thus making your faction demand more one specific ressource than the other faction does(except for the factions that did the same pick)

 

[JinM]

This thread belongs into suggestions. Please move it. No offense I think the topic is ofcourse important, but thats not an excuse to make disucssions even more mixed up.

I mean what if some players want to discuss how to have working trade networks right now, via roleplay rules? Then he comes into this thread. And suggests to only trade blocks against blocks (hi, that would be me :D). But the others that want to reffer to OPs intention for development related suggestion, then have this confusing talk with other players, that thought this thread is also about other stuff as well, and not purely development related suggestions...

 

[NeonSturm]

We need a section for ideas which are appreciated by at least 3 other peoples.
Then we can also have a brainstorm for ideas section which isn't burrowing the really good ones.

 

[Sachys]

Aside from the end of Stickshops etc, another factor a lot of servers have in the way of player economy is a banking system through chat.

Player pirates used to be prevailant enough due to credit drops, but that practice seems to have dried up entirely now.

Edit: while they could be a pest, grabbing a few allies and taking down a player rat ship was itself a good source of income, comeraderie and also... well those dang pirates were damned handy allies!

 

[MacThule]

This thread belongs into suggestions. Please move it. No offense I think the topic is ofcourse important, but thats not an excuse to make disucssions even more mixed up.

I mean what if some players want to discuss how to have working trade networks right now, via roleplay rules? Then he comes into this thread. And suggests to only trade blocks against blocks (hi, that would be me :D). But the others that want to reffer to OPs intention for development related suggestion, then have this confusing talk with other players, that thought this thread is also about other stuff as well, and not purely development related suggestions...

Good point. Sadly, since there's no actual suggestion being made it wouldn't fit well there either! This is just looking for all the perspectives to get a better idea of how everyone sees the economy; research to inform later suggestions. I will plug a note into the OP about this being related to development, not in-game workarounds though!

 

[Edymnion]

Honestly I think the best way to do this is to use the chamber system to a greater degree.

Give things like factory enhancers diminishing returns, and then use chambers to remove those limitations for specific systems.

That way, you have a base that would be forced to specialize in processing ore, or in manufacturing, etc. Do the same thing for shipbuilding, and cargo storage space. Let any station to a little bit of everything, but make it so that multiple stations are required to do everything to any large scale degree.

So then you've got mining ships bringing raw mats to a refining station. Which would then need cargo ships to transport the refined goods to a long term storage station. And cargo ships to take mats out of long term storage and transport them to manufacturing centers, etc etc etc.

Which would create a supply chain of actual physical trade ships moving goods around. And naturally, homebase immunity applying to only ONE station would mean different factions could focus on being really good at one thing (due to the assurance that massive investments in the station that does that one thing are invincible and therefore not at risk), which would mean inter-faction trade becomes more of a thing (in the "I buy your ore, you buy my engine blocks" kind of way).

 

[nulitor]

Honestly I think the best way to do this is to use the chamber system to a greater degree.

Give things like factory enhancers diminishing returns, and then use chambers to remove those limitations for specific systems.

That way, you have a base that would be forced to specialize in processing ore, or in manufacturing, etc. Do the same thing for shipbuilding, and cargo storage space. Let any station to a little bit of everything, but make it so that multiple stations are required to do everything to any large scale degree.

So then you've got mining ships bringing raw mats to a refining station. Which would then need cargo ships to transport the refined goods to a long term storage station. And cargo ships to take mats out of long term storage and transport them to manufacturing centers, etc etc etc.

Which would create a supply chain of actual physical trade ships moving goods around. And naturally, homebase immunity applying to only ONE station would mean different factions could focus on being really good at one thing (due to the assurance that massive investments in the station that does that one thing are invincible and therefore not at risk), which would mean inter-faction trade becomes more of a thing (in the "I buy your ore, you buy my engine blocks" kind of way).

You would need many changes to the mechanics of the game.
1:Cap the size of bases or else you can just hide the other bases within the homebase.
2:Limit docking to the bases or else you can just hide the other bases within ships docked on the homebase.
3:Make so that players 933 sectors away from the center of the universe far away from their own home base can actually be found without allowing to track and troll players on each of their mining trip until they ragequit.
4:Somehow make bases able to defend themselves because right now any non home base can be killed as long as you are not defending it for one hour in a row and if that is possible people will just not do multiple bases as you except them to because it would be an overall loss of resources against the people who likes to destroy unattended stuff.
5:Prevent the huge factions to decide to arbitrarily split their faction in small factions all under the real command of the same person(but a with many fictional leaders) for having tons of homebases to do the whole product manufacture chain with no vulnerable bases.

 

[NeonSturm]

Disable more than 8 home bases per system.
Force HBs to have 3 empty sectors to the next station and 5 empty sectors to the next HB (stations can make multiple sectors non-empty when you attempt to build freighter-tubes).

Make stations be allowed to have more shielding than ships can have weapons.
Make stations able to be build big enough to be invincible by default, except vs shield-penetrating warheads which take resources to produce.

If desired by the server-admin (I would prefer if it is expected and passively community-enforced on all)
Give every player opportunity to have a basic income which varies only by 40% less than maximum possible depending on what players are willing to do so that not the game-assets but players as individuals count.
(above certain warm-up time as newbie)

 

[MacThule]

You would need many changes to the mechanics of the game.
2:Limit docking to the bases or else you can just hide the other bases within ships docked on the homebase.

Wait... are you saying you're currently able to dock a station to a ship to another station and have both stations be independently powered?
[doublepost=1548364511,1548363989][/doublepost]

Give every player opportunity to have a basic income which varies only by 40% less than maximum possible depending on what players are willing to do

Not sure about variability based on ability (interesting - like professional income - but how would this be evaluated in-game?), but, a basic hourly or daily income (assume players own some kind of planetside business or have capital investments) is not a terrible idea. It wouldn't affect the higher levels of the game, but would definitely ease and lubricate activity at the bottom of the economic ladder, which means primarily noobs.

It would also form a good basis for adding revenue for functional planetary improvements and/or non-HB stations, since you'd just need to add credit revenues to the basic income.

And - along with revenue producing player bases or planetary installations, it would partially solve the issue of galactic credit infusion and insure a constant, steady stream of new liquidity into the market.

 

[Edymnion]

Wait... are you saying you're currently able to dock a station to a ship to another station and have both stations be independently powered?

No, he meant build two stations right next to each other, then dock a "ship" that is nothing but an empty shell on the HB and wrap it around the second station.

 

[NeonSturm]

Not sure about variability based on ability (interesting - like professional income - but how would this be evaluated in-game?), but, a basic hourly or daily income (assume players own some kind of planetside business or have capital investments) is not a terrible idea. It wouldn't affect the higher levels of the game, but would definitely ease and lubricate activity at the bottom of the economic ladder, which means primarily noobs.

Some players can stockpile content of their weekend-game only. Maybe only 5-8 hours per WE or even less.
Other players play over 60 hours a week and maybe even over 100 are possible for some hardcore gamers with no real life.

How to balance that?
The hardcore player should not build a titan that can indefinitely trash one 5-hour player Homebase after the other (or the few outposts newbies managed to build, imprisoning them on HB).

3 hours of play might "unlock the first archivement" - a blueprint a miner (by gaining enough resources).
MrGrey1 has a good example: https://starmadedock.net/content/mrgs-mining-carrier-199.7779/
Not too heavy, but that makes it good as a step-up.
He also utilizes functions which can make newbies creative while not being a total loss if drones bug out.

It would be better that when he loses it, he has another one available within a half hour or 10 minutes and not again 3 hours. Perhaps that can be archived by making the shipyard and factory system on the home-base somewhat expensive, but the miner itself cheap.

We need an insurance for that ship.
He locks the blueprint and when it dies in battle and not by being deconstructed, he gets a new one 10 minutes after ordering one. For ever and ever and ever on.

Only downside on hardcore servers would be losing credits based on what he can give to support this refund (assets, credit hold, poor-people safety threshold), but never so much that he considers making a new account over the penalty in credits.


Next week, he makes a bigger shipyard and unlocks the heavy miner by gaining enough resources for it.
Again, I recommend one of MrGrey1's because it's the heaviest and a good-looking miner available in CC. https://starmadedock.net/content/mrgs-heavy-miner.7717/

If a server choose to respawn asteroids every week and he gets a warning about other players ships which have enough weapons on board to kill him because he set up early-warning-system stations, he can grow from there.


But if the limit is how much a system produces over a hour setup, search and mining time, the 60-hour/week player would get 60 systems worth of resources per week.

The heavy-miner guy evolved during a month of play and now owns the equivalent of 10 heavy miners.
How much should he get per week?

And were should it even out?
One gets maximum 60/1000 systems or 1 quadrillion*billion systems per week, the other one gets 40/600 systems mined down or 1billion asteroid-belts a week?

 

[Scypio]

You brainstorm too much.

 

[MacThule]

You brainstorm too much.

Actually, it's been quite a while.