Disintegrators (un-nerfing)

[Keptick]

I can agree BUT with one condition: only after the hull regen system has been implemented (as in the ship rebuilds itself). The reason being that I don't want to see some random neutral suicide-ganking my ship and leaving a gaping hole in it, while AI fighters or turrets didn't know that he was a threat (because of neutrality).

It could just be abused way too easily otherwise.

 

[NeonSturm]

Just make everything containing dis-integrators hostile to everything in the direction it is heading to.

I made a 7*7*6 dis-integrator launcher ship (dis-core-dis) which can fire 5*4 in 2 waves or each one solo by activating an activator (push-cannon)

Only reasons for two dis-integrators are that they will have a 100% chance of hitting. Only reason for 4/6 are hardened hulls.​

Dis-integrators only damage the entity which activated them and the entity they are build on.
Dis-integrators explode multiple times if their speed allows them to dig into a target structure.

Current issues which makes balance impossible. Please tell me if it is fixed already.​

I would like to see dis-integrator mines which activate with a safety-button

• button1 & button2 & all delays -> armed
• armed -> not -> reset trigger button
  
• armed & trigger button -> explode

And maybe even password protected

• and(buttons which have to be 1) & nor(buttons which have to be 0) -> password ok
• password ok + activate/deactivate submit-button -> activate/deactivate
  
• password _not_ ok + activate/deactivate submit-button ->
  1. either reset activate/deactivate to equal status and decrease trial-counter
     
  2. or explode

But to make them viable, dis-integrators have to do a lot more damage.

I would like 100% efficiency if 20% are made of dis-integrators and count the whole ship as one bomb if efficiency = 100%.
That would give you a margin big enough for decorations, logic and some shields/thrusters and encourage you to use that margin.

 

[Incap]

Your ideas are bad, and you should feel bad.

Just have dis-intergrators do more damage, but good lord, don't make them just pass through shields.

 

[Unnamed25]

That would only work if disintegrators dealt WAY more damage than currently, plus any disintegrator torpedo can be avoided/shot down if it has an AI easily.

 

[Mariux]

Grouping for more power? yes. Ignore shields? hell no.

 

[NeonSturm]

You are sending blocks into suicide with no 100% chance of actually archiving something.

True, stealth/clock ships should not be able to jam-clock with dis-integrators while moving.

But we need at least a few things that bypass shields. Even if there will be another type of shield blocking these types of damage (one thing against anything is bad, because it cause itself getting nerfed and produces a boring game-play).

 

[Incap]

No. Just have them do more damage. Bring down shields the old fashioned way.

 

[Mariux]

No. Just have them do more damage. Bring down shields the old fashioned way.

I agree, because it would allow serious griefing...

 

[NeonSturm]

I agree, because it would allow serious griefing...

Against grieving you have self-destruction once some blocks in a logic chain are destroyed.

Against trolling you have turrets.

Did you not see the part of my post where I said: "Even if there will be another type of shield blocking these types of damage" (meant collision+dis-integrators)



Having 1 shield type for anti-everything is bad. having 2 can make this game interesting (or different damage types which you can individually harden).

Anyway I think there should be an option to "spend [5]*300 credits to kill someone else's [3]*300 credits" because it would allow players to punish their superior enemy for attacking them.
-> discouraging peoples engaging every fight and make them start thinking about whether they should attack
-> allow peoples to make a more expensive ship which actively discourages pirates from attacking it (as they usually want to win, not waste more than they gain)

Do you understand the advantage of punishing another for greater cost at your side or are you going to give me another dislike for using thinking too complex for you? :p

"Don't hurt others to don't get hurt. Only hurt others if you really need it to survive/grow. Engage only these fights you can win without getting hurt more than it's worth".

Many animals can kill or seriously harm humans, but it would be very stupid to take open wounds in exchange, thus they do not attack as long as you don't leave them no other choice (if they are able to recognize you as dangerous rather than their primary choice of meal)

 

[Incap]

'Complex' isn't the word I'd use to describe your thinking.

I have no clue what you're talking about when you say logic chains. How the hell do logic chains factor into people using them to grief? This is how it'll play out. Place Core > add power and thrusters> ADD DISINTEGRATORS > point at enemy > hit top speed > exit core while in motion > free kill

Do you see the issue? That's a very simple and cheap way to grief.

And turrets only work if it's an enemy. If the thing doesn't have a faction block then the turret won't recognize if the player isn't in it. I just blew a bigger hole in your logic than a dis-integrator blast in a ship without shields.

Now you're saying we should have 2 types of shields? You mean physical armour right? That'd make sense for collisions and such, and maybe if the armour was effective at protecting against damage, then yeah, maybe disintegrators would be okay. But then you should nerf the damage so they can't be abused. You can't have it both ways.

 

[NeonSturm]

'Complex' isn't the word I'd use to describe your thinking.

I have no clue what you're talking about when you say logic chains. How the hell do logic chains factor into people using them to grief? This is how it'll play out. Place Core > add power and thrusters> ADD DISINTEGRATORS > point at enemy > hit top speed > exit core while in motion > free kill

Do you see the issue? That's a very simple and cheap way to grief.

And turrets only work if it's an enemy. If the thing doesn't have a faction block then the turret won't recognize if the player isn't in it. I just blew a bigger hole in your logic than a dis-integrator blast in a ship without shields.

Now you're saying we should have 2 types of shields? You mean physical armour right? That'd make sense for collisions and such, and maybe if the armour was effective at protecting against damage, then yeah, maybe disintegrators would be okay. But then you should nerf the damage so they can't be abused. You can't have it both ways.

True, thus I suggested once to make everything with dis-integrators which flies toward you enemy (maybe except it has a faction module set to same owner)

Logic chains are against stealing/grievers (area triggers kill players (pulse), broken logic chains deny the loot)

There is no way to prevent trolling, except to punish trolls for trolling (damage their blocks aswell, but deny loot)

I am not against shielding this kind of damage, but there should be some interesting choice whether you want to sacrifice strength against another weapon choice for more resilience to this one.

Also you should be able to sacrifice 5x of your own to kill 2-3x for the other. It should be something that discourages attacking you for loot (pirates, bounty-hunters which are not in a 100 times bigger ship) while not encouraging you to use it exclusively, not even in most cases.

 

[AtraUnam]

Either Disintegrators do enough damage (one way or another) that they would be considered overpowered by most people, or remove them completely because their difficulty to use effectively means no one would ever use them.

 

[NeonSturm]

Or cap max damage. Distributed over which block would receive damage by common AOE (block.damage *(maxDamage/totalDamage)).

And balance them vs hull elements and the average hp / density of interior.

 

[BDLS]

Logic chains are against grieving (area triggers kill players (pulse), broken logic chains deny the loot)

What. I don't quite understand how logic systems can stop the griefing potential here.

Are you gonna have a bunch of free floating area triggers around all your ships, (extending your ship dimensions and crippling rotation speed) in the hope that they'll trigger a system that reacts fast enough to stop a suicide bomber from doing damage? I don't quite follow how that would stop people from ramming into others with suicide cloak sticks at max speed.

---

Jesus....this suggestion is so bad, and the fact that so many people support it hurts my soul.

 

[NeonSturm]

grieving = stealing ship blueprint or ship for blocks or both.
trolling = flying suicide ships into a valuable (for owner) ship.

AFAIK. One of us got it wrong.

I think I used it right while writing it because I remember peoples saying something along "faction-grievers un-faction everything and abduct it".

 

[BDLS]

It is griefing. Grieving = crying/being sad over something.

Griefing can be any form of tormenting/trolling someone in an MP game.

 

[Lecic]

After reading a lot of reasons against disintegrators ignoring shields, I've changed my mind. Disintegrators should not ignore shields. They really just need a damage buff, and have explosions scaling based on the number of disintegrators.

I'm thinking something along the lines of each disintegrator doing 3x the damage of a single dumbfire missile block, with the explosion radius increasing with smaller and smaller increments as you add more blocks.

 

[NeonSturm]

'm thinking something along the lines of each disintegrator doing 3x the damage of a single dumbfire missile block

But you can use missiles more than three times! It is also a lot easier to get missiles to hit their intended target...

I now want to hear some pro-argument again... Can we not have a pro-contra list in the OP?

 

[MrFURB]

Disintegrators are tough to work out.

You're essentially dumping a sum of cash into one strike. It doesn't matter if that one strike does anything or even makes it to the enemy in the first place. Money spent on disintegrators gone. Poof. No more moniez. The risk in using disintegrators as a weapon over missiles or even pulse weaponry is very high, and the reward is almost always unjustifiably low. Overheating a capital ship that has decent core placement or is radar jammed requires quite a fair bit of explosives, and they all need to be delivered successfully and on target.
Using disintegrators as a viable way of 'winning a battle' is an absurdly risky move that requires a specific strategy; one can't just fit any old frigate with a bunch of explosives and expect to get past turrets, heavy missiles, and the like.

That said, I'm fully against the idea of disintegrators having any sort of shield bleed-through right now... Not because it would make them overpowered in combat (they'd still have trouble actually getting into the ship core with their current damage ratings) but because it would open up damaging an enemy's vessel just for the sake of damaging it, with no care for actually winning a battle or your own safety. Current game mechanics do not allow for any non-manual restoration of a vessel's blocks.

If there was a more reliable layer of defense or countermeasure built against disintegrators and other shield phasing weaponry, I could see them adding some cool variance to combat. Perhaps the fabled defense/HP system remake that was hinted at would suffice. We'll see!

 

[NeonSturm]

[Edited by me (NeonSturm): added numbers]

1. You're essentially dumping a sum of cash into one strike. It doesn't matter if that one strike does anything or even makes it to the enemy in the first place. Money spent on disintegrators gone. Poof. No more moniez.

2. The risk in using disintegrators as a weapon over missiles or even pulse weaponry is very high, and the reward is almost always unjustifiably low.

3. Overheating a capital ship that has decent core placement or is radar jammed requires quite a fair bit of explosives, and they all need to be delivered successfully and on target.

4.Using disintegrators as a viable way of 'winning a battle' is an absurdly risky move that requires a specific strategy; one can't just fit any old frigate with a bunch of explosives and expect to get past turrets, heavy missiles, and the like.

1. True, fully agree with this part

2.
You can make (dis-core-dis ships (format: 1xz, 3y) ) and dock them in a very tight or a spaced out array (each second xy block).

You can undock dis-integrators with at least 3 blocks in-between horizontally, vertically or 1 block in-between diagonally and trigger a push-cannon/pulse thing by the undocked-event (not the undocking-trigger)

If they are fast enough to physic-glitch partially inside the enemy ship they do damage multiple times (bug?).
My test 7*7*6 test-battle-cube ship could take out 2 times a 50^2 * 25m high battle-pyramid with roughly 1/3 space filled with vitals (including weapons) in a few seconds (perfectly placed 0.5s delay bursts) while remaining jammed and only sacrificing 10 cores + 20 dis-integrators per pyramid.

3.

1. If you spam dis-core-dis "projectiles", the turrets may let most through as many may target the same target ( 1 projectile per 4x4 surface each of 2 waves is possible, see 2.My test )
   
2. You may use them to take out turrets and create a blind spot for attacks afterward
   
3. Dis-integrators which are positioned in a "large dotted sphere" are mostly not hit. Turrets stop firing when the core overheats.

4.
I think the main problem is that the front dis-integrators let your ship bounce off, thus the rear can't hit.

I tried non-physical (block-config) but they won't explode.
I tried area triggers, but then dis-integrators only damage the ship they are on, not the enemy ship (they damage own ship and the ship they got in contact with)


Joke BTW: Why does firefox try to auto-correct "undocking-trigger" with "rocking-horse"? :D