[Discussion] Tired of hearing "soon"? Thoughts on the Q&A

[Ithirahad]

Neon, you went from a decent statement in the OP to likening Starmade to a turd... Learn to recognize a decent answer when you see one, and, for that matter, learn when to stop whining... You have some decent points, but as the topic progresses the decent points become more and more drowned out by whining and, as Cyber put it, "I understand that. But I still don't like it."

...Also, the small-team development process and definitive dates and deadlines are usually pretty much mutually-exclusive, it seems... I hate it just as much as you, Neon, but I've come to accept it... It's just the way things work. However, on what I suppose is a lighter note, I do agree that, well, you know it's bad when even the devs are using the "Soon(TM)" joke frequently. :P

 

[Iskandar]

Tomino_sama schema Believers in doing something instead of learning something are left behind in today's world.

Sorry, but I'd have to disagree with this statement. The only people who will be left behind are the ones who just don't try. Some people do better with hands-on experience, some people do better by doing extensive reading and studying, and some people do better by having an instructor guide them through the necessary material. While I'm a huge supporter of having a solid educational foundation, there is no one-size-fits-all approach to obtaining that education and learning those skills.

Spoiler: My personal experience...

For reference, I'm a Digital Graphic Designer by trade. When I was in college, there was no Digital Arts program to enroll in, like there is today -- it was a brand new thing, and everyone was starting from scratch. PageMaker and Photoshop had just had their initial release, and Web Design didn't exist at all -- the Internet was just a few hundred IRC chat channels at that point, and dial-up BBS's with ASCII splash screens were where people went to go "online."

I started as a Graphic Designer by just using the programs. Every project was a learning experience, and by the time I graduated from college (with a disappointingly useless degree in Journalism) I had become proficient enough to seek employment as a Digital Graphic Designer.

Today, I feel quite satisfied with my accomplishments in the field... I've done work for everything from Fortune 5 companies to mom & pop printshops, and received enough local and national recognition to feel very proud of my career. And I've never actually studied Graphic Design -- I just picked up the tools and did it, and not once was I ever "left behind." I looked at what and how others were designing, and tried to do it better myself. Sure, I've considered going back to college for an official degree, but what would be the point when I'm skilled and knowledgeable enough to qualify as a teacher for many of those very same classes?

 

[mindlord0013]

The best PR Starmade can get at the moment is word of mouth, famous youtubers playing the game, and getting on steam (though I think the game runs great without steam, just the publicity of it).

Admittedly, I was a tiny bit frustrated at some of the commentary during the first dev stream. I haven't watched the second dev stream, but I reckon that there needs to be some polishing for the third. My second cousin is a press secretary, so I know the kind of ins and outs of how an interview should go.

 

[MrFURB]

I feel that we could juice some more goodness out of this thread by all tossing our input out there on how we think the Q&As have been now that we have had a few done. Let's get some feedback, folks, and help make the next Mush/Schine Q&A even better.

 

[mindlord0013]

I feel that we could juice some more goodness out of this thread by all tossing our input out there on how we think the Q&As have been now that we have had a few done. Let's get some feedback, folks, and help make the next Mush/Schine Q&A even better.

Honestly: took too long, and though MF meant well, some of the mush commentators just detracted from the q&a. There was too great a focus on each question, some questions could have been solved with a "soon(tm)" and moving on (I believe that is a perfectly reasonable answer - it simply means "we're working on it and we will get it done ASAP". Also having more Schine members as a kind of panel, with only 1 mushroom interviewer/arbitrary timekeeper. Having maybe cal/schema, omni, and a community moderator as the Schine panel would work well.

 

[MrFURB]

So... Instead of having multiple Mushroom Fleet folks and one or two officials, we flip it and have one interviewer with the questions asking a group of people?
I think it'll end up being Cal/Schema giving the answers and whoever else is there with them giving their opinion on it. Might end up being fun to try out, but it's up to Mush/Schine.

 

[mindlord0013]

So... Instead of having multiple Mushroom Fleet folks and one or two officials, we flip it and have one interviewer with the questions asking a group of people?
I think it'll end up being Cal/Schema giving the answers and whoever else is there with them giving their opinion on it. Might end up being fun to try out, but it's up to Mush/Schine.

Right on the money. That way the correct person of each respective field can give a more informed reply, and there are less non-Schine people around to distract from the true purpose of the interview. Plus, the sole interviewer can keep better track of time without others interrupting.

 

[schema]

but in the second q&a it was always just one person asking the questions. There were a lot of people in the channel but they were not intervening in any questions whatsoever.

 

[Websterandy42]

Tomino_sama schema ... Sadly learning by doing is only part of how we learn. There is a reason schools and universities exist. If you don't know what to do, then you cant do it at all. It will take 10 times longer to figure it out than to have it taught to you. Believers in doing something instead of learning something are left behind in today's world. Trust me on this. I have a masters degree in astrophysics and am working on my PhD thesis. I am immersed in education every day and I know its ins and outs very well.

If you actually think the I've ignored the amount of effort you all have put into this, then you need to take a step back and understand your consumers. People DO NOT CARE how much effort you put into something. You might put lots of effort into pushing out a turd, but that doesn't mean I want to see it. Giving praise for effort is something do to children so they don't give up. We are adults. Don't expect a pat on the back every time you try something. That being said, I'm glad you're looking to improve. Keep these things in mind while making your videos. They will take you far.

Azurite ... As i told Firestorm29. Schema is an adult. He can handle some criticism, He gets plenty of praise. I'm here to talk about what can be improved. I'm here to talk about some how some of us feel. Not to praise that which is already worshiped and turn a blind eye to that which can be improved. I already showed my gratitude by purchasing the game. So in essence it is not free, and the end intent is for it not to be free. So this point is moot. This is not grade school where we give gold stars for trying. I critique that which needs improvement, and will praise that which is worthy of it. Its time to grow up and stop asking for gratitude. All in all It's been a good job so far. It really has! I'll be the first in line to admit that schema has done a good job so far, but I do feel that the community has been a bit neglected. I am frustrated, as are others, with the progress made recently. If you read the whole thread this is apparent.

Hey! I'm working on a minor in Astrophysics and a double major in History and Linguistics! I'm sure many a intellectual conversation await us in the future. I have to say, I don't agree with a lot of your points. Mostly your dismissal of the Labour Theory of Value--as a turd could make great fertilizer for someone--and your conception that we are, at this point, consumers. Unless I have misunderstood, Schema has said that paying will not be necessary even in the final stages of the game and Mushroom Fleet do not make their content for money. This means that neither Starmade nor those videos are on a market therefore they are not a product and we are not consumers. But for the sake of argument, or if I'm wrong about Schema's plan for the game, let's say that we are consumers. Firstly, if that is the case Schema owes us absolutely nothing. When you bought the game (which I'm really hoping you have with how frustrated you are) you bought the right to play a game that you know is not complete. As well said in the terms and conditions

When you get a copy of StarMade, we provide it ‘as is‘. Updates and upgrades are also provided ‘as is‘. This means that we are not making any promises to you about the standard or quality of StarMade or that StarMade will be uninterrupted or error free or for any loss or damage that they cause. We only promise to provide StarMade and any services with reasonable skill and care. Please note that StarMade is still uncompleted and so it may (and often will) have bugs.

He doesn’t owe you or me any updates or features in a market system because we bought an uninsured product knowing it will often break and could be left undeveloped like many projects do. Try, as an assumed user of Windows, demanding Microsoft to push for Open GL rather than DirectX and see how well it works out for you. It won’t go well because they are in the market of selling in the most efficient and profitable way, not customizing your personal experience with their product. The community likes Starmade because Schema has done a pretty good job of fitting in our collective wants. If they didn’t we would not have 3000+ registered members on the forums. It might bring on some disillusion to hear, but its both wrong and selfish to demand a personal say in the production of this game.

Finally to the "patting on the back" issue, It's obvious that both Tomino_sama and schema love what they are doing. They aren’t going to follow Incentive Theory of Motivation no mater how much you align yourself with it personally. Its well understood that people do their best work when they have: Autonomy, Mastery, and Purpose.
I linked a great set of papers on the subject and here is a great video about it for the lazy.
So yes, we should be letting Schema know that he what he is doing has purpose, he should use the game to experiment if it makes him happy, and he should feel like he has some control over where his personal creation is headed.


I know it sucks waiting, but I think Schema knows what he is doing. If people are leaving because what the community wants is not what they want, that’s their problem. If people are leaving because the updates are too slow, that’s also their problem. If people are somehow incapable of playing two different space games, that's definitely their problem and they need to get that checked out. If Schema is bent on making tons of money he should be worried about these things, but I don’t think that's his intent.

 

[mindlord0013]

but in the second q&a it was always just one person asking the questions. There were a lot of people in the channel but they were not intervening in any questions whatsoever.

I personally haven't watched the second stream, but will definitely add an additional opinion on it once I get around. The opinions I had where from watching the first dev stream compared to dev streams from other companies producing games that I enjoy just as much (warframe dev streams, star citizen dev streams, etc). Though those companies almost certainly have more press coverage and a higher budget, I feel that does not exempt the starmade dev steams from being just as professionally conducted - even if the production quality is lower. (It would certainly gain a much higher amounts of attention with the press)

Btw schema, just want shout out my unyielding support for you and also my immense gratitude for your current and continued work on this amazing game.

Furthermore, as a preserving teacher, I have studied the benefits of using minecraft in the classroom. I personally this extends to starmade, and that starmade can actually a exceed the benefits of minecraft when used in a classroom environment.

 

[Neon_42]

Wow, I cant possibly respond to all of you at once. This is good though. Lots of discussion which was the point.

First, schema and Ithirahad . I appologize if you though I was comparing SM to a Turd. That was not the intent. Mainly that you can work really hard on something but the end product can be crap, thus devaluing the the process to your clients, but maybe not to the producers. I have teach plenty of students physics who produce sub par work that are proud of it, but they are not going into the world to do physics.

Second, As per developers what about Calibri and at one time Beatlebear?

Third,

Basic rundown of this thread:
Neon_42: I dont like how you're going about this.
Schema: This is why, its really the best way i can do it.
Neon_42: I understand that. But i still dont like it.

I'd add a what are you doing to make it better line somewhere in there. And if you respond with "everything we can" then you didn't understand the question.

Fourth, Websterandy42 ... I've read similar papers to that one before and seen the TED talk. It is a revolutionary idea, one I'm a big fan of, but I don't feel it is quite so applicable to this case as it has been pointed out that the monetary gain is not the point. Something I've misunderstood.

Somebody up above mentioned that we are not consumers. Well what are we then? The answer is that we are consumers. We purchase(sometimes) a product and expect a certain amount of return from that product. The problem is that these expectations are not being met and the community is dying as a result. There is a saying that "the customer is always right". While this is in no sense true the point I think is applicable. If the customers needs are not met. Then there is no reason to ever come back. If the goal is to make a good game. The we best be meeting the customers needs.

Lastly I agree with MrFURB ... I've gotten off track and we've started an online pissing contest. Nobody wins in this case. We should focus on making the Q&As better. That is probably the last bit of use that's gonna come out of this. I'm certain I've made no shortage of 'friends' in the community and would rather not run out of town if you know what I mean. So here are my suggestions.

1) Never answer a question with *soon. It is empty and a boring answer that dodges the actual question. If at all possible give an actual amount of time or a vague amount of time. Something to hold on to is nice even if it is a bit nebulous. The other acceptable answer is a simple I don't know. Less satisfying this one is, but it works.

2) Actually discuss questions that are well formed. Responses from the interviewer that say "that's interesting" or "I agree with that", especially if there is nothing to agree too. It sounds moronic and wastes time.

3) Screen questions better before hand. Things that are expected don't need to be answered. Questions that are "yes or no" questions have no place in a Q&A discussion. Maybe at the end open the forum to the chat or a select members of the community. Then these things can be answered there.

4) explain your answers. Never assume the answers are simple. Always answer with: who, what, when, where, why ,and how. Obviously some of these may not always be applicable.

 

[SmilingDemon]

Uhh .. 3 Pages already .

on the Q&A:
1. far too long: Choose maybe 20-30 questions which can be answered in detail to give a better insight into the development process! Add a sort of free speech part where a staff member explains something (grafics assets plans , creation for example). Target for maybe 1 hour in lenght at maximum.
2. i couldn´t listen very well to Tomino´s twitch stream, because of some airblower like noise ??
3. i do agree that "exellent" "interesting" "insert other repeted phrase here " is very annoying. But i also know that i myself might use phrases all the time without realising it. So i at least understand I guess thats not that much of a problem if it only goes for one hour with 2 nterviewers.

On neglecting the community:
I think the new Page is a big step forward. But i would like to see more small bits thrown to us (like for example that firing weapons with logic gif) that would make it feel more fluent than every month to here something ... People are checking in more often if they can expect to find something new. And it prevents to forget about the game... expecialy if someone can´t spare the time to stay engaged in it at all times!


Somehow this posting looks like real bad english to me ... but i don´t care. I only had 1 cup of coffee until now :P

 

[MossyStone48]

Neon. Let me be the first to invite you to work on a game engine for the better part of a decade; Make a game with it. And then have all of these expectations show up after only one year in development. We'll watch every interview and Q&A you, as the lone coder, are involved in and see how you do. Let's see if you grade with your own expectations.

You have to factor in the fact that not only is the lone dev new to this whole process of journalistic inquiry but the folks setting up these Q&As are also learning on the job. They are doing a better job than some of these vaunted professionals are. Just look to Eidos or EA for examples of butchered interviews. Those end up IN PRINT no less.

It's not as easy to participate and assist in the growth as it is to criticize. I also understand it's not as fun. Well, you may ask, how does one participate?
-Be active
-Be polite
-Be helpful
Because any 'constructive criticism' out of those three contexts will end up being the exact opposite.

In summation: It's ALPHA.
Which accurately describes the state of the game AND the community. Please be patient. And thank you for playing Starmade.

 

[DukeofRealms]

This has been fun, perhaps a poll on the matter would fit, so we don't have prolonged this way is better than that way. It'll be interesting to see what the population thinks. (Not saying the conversation should stop, but a poll will allow the conversation to develop further.)

 

[ToyotaSupra]

Ouch...harsh and cold. I don't think the community is shrinking, maybe stagnant like you said but not quite shrinking. But damn...3 pages of comments. Dare I read or do I ignore in fear of vitriol?

Yes the game is taking quite a long time, but remember that Space Engineers had a kickstarter campaign and a team of devs, this game has (as far as I know) one or two devs. (Correct me if I'm wrong-apologies if I am)

I'd like to add that although I think this game has a lot of problems (And I mean a lot) I feel as if there is an effort being made to fix them, and I really hope this game doesn't die off, the game looks so good and the community here on the forums is great too. All I can say is good luck and godspeed to Schema and the other guys working on this...

 

[kupu]

As per developers what about Calibri and at one time Beatlebear?

No, the game's sole creator and only programmer is Schema.
The content you demand is implemented by one man and always has been.

 

[aceface]

NOW LOOK!

StarMade is more "developed" than space engineers already.

People are going crazy about space engineers because they are "implementing" lots of things every week. Now heres the deal. When I bought the game a few days after early access, there were LOTS of different blocks already there. The thing is, you couldn't use half of them. Now they release small things every week by simply giving these blocks actual functions in game, and people falling in awe because they can finally have a heavy armour block.

And also my main point. They are only releasing blocks. Every week, "New block, new weapon, new factory..." I personally think thats very cool. But then when I actually play the game I'm just like - what am I going to do with this? Shoot asteroids? Fly in an empty, laggy, unpopulated server and try to cooperate. NO. You can't do anything. I am no developer, but what I can see is that it is not hard at all to add in new fancy schizz in StarMade. You guys saw how quick the weapons update was made, and looks already half finished. What the devs are trying to do is make more point in the game. The good multiplayer of StarMade is really good for roleplaying or simply exploring the universe combating pirates with your friends. You can also do that in single player, and it'll be so much more fun when the quest system is there. It is way easier to build what you want in a survival kind of matter. Now with the ships not warping away, combat will be EVEN MORE STABLE :D. Planets will be SO PRETTY! And OH, the weapons, even in the early state they looked so fabulous. Now, with the fact that you can do a lot with your stuff already, StarMade is going to take one GIANT leap forward. StarMade is focusing on playing stuff. Space engineers focuses on realistic stuff. They are similar games but focus on different aspects. But StarMade is atleast the more "stable" game. Starmade's singleplayer is a server. That's why there was warping around. The exact same thing happens in Space engineers multiplayer.

 

[aceface]

Hey! I'm working on a minor in Astrophysics and a double major in History and Linguistics! I'm sure many a intellectual conversation await us in the future. I have to say, I don't agree with a lot of your points. Mostly your dismissal of the Labour Theory of Value--as a turd could make great fertilizer for someone--and your conception that we are, at this point, consumers. Unless I have misunderstood, Schema has said that paying will not be necessary even in the final stages of the game and Mushroom Fleet do not make their content for money. This means that neither Starmade nor those videos are on a market therefore they are not a product and we are not consumers. But for the sake of argument, or if I'm wrong about Schema's plan for the game, let's say that we are consumers. Firstly, if that is the case Schema owes us absolutely nothing. When you bought the game (which I'm really hoping you have with how frustrated you are) you bought the right to play a game that you know is not complete. As well said in the terms and conditions

He doesn’t owe you or me any updates or features in a market system because we bought an uninsured product knowing it will often break and could be left undeveloped like many projects do. Try, as an assumed user of Windows, demanding Microsoft to push for Open GL rather than DirectX and see how well it works out for you. It won’t go well because they are in the market of selling in the most efficient and profitable way, not customizing your personal experience with their product. The community likes Starmade because Schema has done a pretty good job of fitting in our collective wants. If they didn’t we would not have 3000+ registered members on the forums. It might bring on some disillusion to hear, but its both wrong and selfish to demand a personal say in the production of this game.

Finally to the "patting on the back" issue, It's obvious that both Tomino_sama and schema love what they are doing. They aren’t going to follow Incentive Theory of Motivation no mater how much you align yourself with it personally. Its well understood that people do their best work when they have: Autonomy, Mastery, and Purpose.
I linked a great set of papers on the subject and here is a great video about it for the lazy.
So yes, we should be letting Schema know that he what he is doing has purpose, he should use the game to experiment if it makes him happy, and he should feel like he has some control over where his personal creation is headed.


I know it sucks waiting, but I think Schema knows what he is doing. If people are leaving because what the community wants is not what they want, that’s their problem. If people are leaving because the updates are too slow, that’s also their problem. If people are somehow incapable of playing two different space games, that's definitely their problem and they need to get that checked out. If Schema is bent on making tons of money he should be worried about these things, but I don’t think that's his intent.

you really seem to want to prove your point lol

 

[Firestorm29]

kupu brought up a point I was hesitant to bring up till now, was the lack of manpower. Realistically, when you only have one person on a project, it becomes quite a task trying to manage a project to meet the speed of something like Space Engineers, not to mention trying to de-bug a program. I can remember spending an hour trying to work out logic errors on a class file about 100 lines long finding out I forgot to use == rather than = in an if statement, I'd hate to imagine trying something 100x as large.

I can understand being impatient since are thing I'd like to try and get the AI to do myself, but I also understand deadlines with a single programmer isn't entirely feasible. The 50% on planets thing though is, since it kinda gives us an idea of how far things have gone and how much is left, kinda like what was posted in the news feed a few weeks ago. Perhaps something to consider for the next Q&A.

Other things I'd like to touch on because holy crap did this thing explode:

I think the emphasis on going through a college course on coursera is alittle overkill for our needs, which is the reason why I asked what you thought was needed. Being more proactive with response questions like what you want isn't something that can be entirely acquired through coursera. That's more experience taught.

Little confused about where you told me about schema being an adult or what prompted that, neon. o.0

Also starting to wonder if general answers to questions might be warranted, like trying to answer 4 questrions with one answer. Did notice some redundant space whales in the
typed up brief.

 

[Tomino_sama]

The problem is that these expectations are not being met and the community is dying as a result. There is a saying that "the customer is always right". While this is in no sense true the point I think is applicable.

The clearly lack Tact and see this as some kind of Lecture. It is not. You are continually patronizing in your tone which is abrasive to say the least. While i disregard this as an unluckily awkward choice of words your soap box has seemingly grown to a considerable height. I offered to involve you in the process and you ignore and continue to attack my work personally. That is bad etiquette and lacking any kind of real world savvy. You talk about marketing but clearly do not understand that burning bridges in this way does not help your case. My offer still stands.

1) Never answer a question with *soon. It is empty and a boring answer that dodges the actual question.

Dodging the question is saying "Maybe" or "this is may be considered" Also given the Bulk of the questions (you asked for both a shorter Q&A *AND* less vetting/simplifying of questions, contradictory) some thing only need to be confirmed as planned and have no substance to reveal beyond the confirmation "not a no"

2) Actually discuss questions that are well formed. Responses from the interviewer that say "that's interesting" or "I agree with that", especially if there is nothing to agree too. It sounds moronic and wastes time.

In an "interview" the Questions & Answers are set by the "interviewer" and of course are discussed in the normal way.
At a "Q&A with Dev Team" Questions are submitted by a community in a time period and then the "host" read them out verbatum. The "guests" (Dev team) respond with pre-answered questions from that list. The "Host" is then responsible for moving onto the next questions without discussion or deviation. This is done to keep the time down. Anyone with a basic knowledge of Broadcasting can tell you this. Official Announcements are scripted. Any derailing is frowned upon. Frankly if you actually watched any Q&A's it is not advised for a Host to continually ask the dev's random questions like "when will factories work because they just stop" or after a question about planets saying "why not make the Cubed shape that is better" That is just rude and bad form on the part of the Host. Again. You won't be hosting the awards ceremony next year by going off script at an official Event. We host many player discussions in our community, maybe you should stop by and include yourself. Like voting, if you don't vote you can't complain about politics.

3) Screen questions better before hand. Things that are expected don't need to be answered. Questions that are "yes or no" questions have no place in a Q&A discussion. Maybe at the end open the forum to the chat or a select members of the community. Then these things can be answered there.

I screened the Questions with Raiben and also included the Full "unabridged" copy to The Dev Team. You ask for a shorter Q&A but then ask for an open discussion at the end? these two thing conflict. You cannot have all the questions answered, with a shorted Q&A and open questions from chat too, time is finite. It kind of takes away form the people that actually took the time to follow the game, read the news, reply in the correct forum as asked during the allotted time and post a well formed and well thought out question. This was not a suggestions thread, so of course they would not be included. This was not a Q&A to cover the previously answered Questions, so of course they would not be included. You say "Things that are expected don't need to be answered" but not everyone knows everything so if you know something, maybe someone else didn't? These events are for the whole community, so if you picked up the game yesterday, nothing is confirmed is it?

4) explain your answers. Never assume the answers are simple. Always answer with: who, what, when, where, why ,and how. Obviously some of these may not always be applicable.

Actually Interviewers 101 is to pose OPEN QUESTIONS.
These start with "who, what, when, where, why"
All OPEN ANSWERS do is fill air time.

If you actually work it out. in 4 hours there are 240 minutes.
There were around 550 Questions Submitted.
Even if we whittles it down to Half, that is still only allowing under 30 seconds for answers to be answered.
That allows no time for chat dicussion
With you saying no YES/NO/PLANNED/CONFIRMED/SOON answers - we would still be doing the stream now!