Regarding the blueprint revamp...

[Malacodor]

And those that DO still use hull and whatnot will have to stick to one or two colors, and eliminate or reduce unique details, to make the crafting tolerable.

Do you even know how crafting works? Standard and advanced armor require ores to craft, so people are actually encouraged to use different colors. If you only use one color you'll need large amounts of one specific ore (2 for grey, 3 for brown) and none of the other types.

... who would still want to accept a massive amount of credits if they couldn't make use of them anyways?

Pay with resources instead?

The devs purposefully made weapons more expensive so that players would focus on defense instead, such as armoring a ship instead of shielding it.

Advanced armor requires more ores than weapon blocks.

 

[Mered4]

That's the point, really. No economy is currently working without stable flush of credits, mostly by voting rewards. Actual resources play little to no role. If you would take those awards away, natural volume of credits will go extinct, and gameplay will collapse. Blocks are what meant to be the primary value, and credits are meant to be a universal value substitute for player interactions. That's why in generic Starmade environment they are relatively scarce.

This is just flat out not true.

In mushroomfleet, everyone starts with enough credits to buy (essentially) a decent sized homebase and a salvager. There are no voting rewards. The admins don't inject the economy with influxes of cash. IT JUST WORKS.

The Imperium, currently the largest (and most tyrannical) faction on MFleet, controls the central hub of an entire galaxy, all with stuff they salvaged. Everyone else has done the same (not the galaxy part, just the salvaging part).

We've earned it with the sweat of our brow.

Blocks aren't scarce - I still keep caches of them in the homebase because I have to repair my ships all the time after battles, and I do it manually. You just aren't using them correctly. Mind, the only thing I use for money-making is the Warp gate computer, of which we have a few hundred thousand of.

It's difficult to build up to the point where you can spawn in something BESIDES a doomcube.

 

[der_scheme]

Ah; I get what you're saying now. However, why release it so early, then? Why not leave it in the dev branch until more of the side features are added and Schema knows that the release will be an all-around improvement to the game, rather than what comes across to the players as a half-completed feature? Especially since (thankfully) the dev builds ARE still open to the public...

Well, as I believe this system is default now, you can also view this change as a more direct announcement as how it's going to be. Apart from that, schema simply likes pushing out updates—and people seem to love small updates.

...Furthermore, my main issue (contrary to how it may look) isn't actually the lack of the buy-partially-with-credits feature in the current build. It's how, when asked about it, most people 'in the know' seem to answer that it won't be added. I may be responding prematurely, though.

My last information still is that the vast majority of players are not playing on dev versions. If any, they get jolted by threads like this, assuming that this is in fact final.

 

[MrFURB]

I'm all for being able to substitute a few missing blocks for a credit premium. Or everything for a rather hefty price. It seems like a nice bit of convenience.

I do get the problem of being able to poof blocks out of thin air, but I don't think it's as ominous as people make it out to be. Ultimately the only source of unlimited credits and materials (unless servers are set up to reward people) is the trading guild shops and NPC ships, both of which can be considered rewards for PvE content/exploration. The biggest reason that buy with credits seems so cheaty is because you can gain massive amounts of credits by taking advantage of the truly randomized (Oh, so this pirate dropped 1 shrub and 1,012 blast doors. There's another 15 million credits.) NPC loot. Nothing a true value based loot system couldn't solve.

I also understand why some people feel that buy-with-blocks may cause some trouble, but I do not believe that this is anything more than inconvenience either. I haven't been able to pinpoint any reasons for economies to falter and divebomb, or players to leave the game en masse, or for there to be an 'age of doomcube' either. It just seems a little bit inconvenient. Nothing a robust crafting system couldn't solve.

 

[Keptick]

Because you are discussing a matter you know nothing about. You take the new blueprint item and take it literally, whithout the consideration that there might be other changes upcoming.


An improvement that is moot at this point of development, see above.


Which you knew when you started bragging in private messages, and when you opened up this thread, right?


It still is. Just because schema decided to push a feature, which basically doesn't change anything, out into the wild that doesn't mean that you know anything more than you know before, nor that anything about that is final. The GUI could be removed or changed again. The actual data is independent from the presentation.


Yes, how in the world is it less important than the actual mechanics in which context it's going to be used? That is a real riddle to me.

So, we're basically not aloud to discuss things because we're not "official testers"? Had you actually read the thread you'd see that we actually welcome the feature, WHICH YOU'D KNOW IS PRETTY GAME CHANGING IF YOU ACTUALLY PLAYED THE GAME!!! See how I just assumed something that might be false? You shouldn't either. Yes, I know that things are most likely going to change. That's exactly why I want to see them change in the proper direction.

I also strongly suggest that you reread that post you quoted, cause your response makes absolutely no sense. It's like I'm telling you the sky is blue and you blindly respond "NO, THE SKY IS BLUE, YOU'RE THE REASON WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS". You wot m9?

Tl;dr Please don't.

 

[Majorfatboy]

For the folks saying those of us who are voicing concerns about the new system are "over reacting", no, We're not. We're giving feedback on a proposed system. And giving feedback on proposed systems, both positive and negative is the point of letting the masses play a game under development.
And to whoever it was above that feels that We shouldn't have access to dev builds or information, then why is the public even allowed to play this "Alpha build"? Why are We allowed to interact on the forums? The agreement here is that in exchange for letting us play this new game soon, and for the time being free, We put up with bugged / missing features, changes, and give feedback based on our own thoughts, opinions, and experiences. In other words; The devs invited us in and asked us of our opinions, deal with it.

The internet suffers from this problem that negative = ERMAGERDIMSOFLIPPINGANGRY!!! This simply isn't true.
Some of us didn't like the proposed idea, and spoke up. We gave feedback, and some folks even proposed compromises, adjustments, or alternate systems.

And look what happened:
We've just received word from the Cat Himself on how the system is to work, confirmation the He knows some of us are unhappy, and has revealed that there will be an option to revert to the old system for those of us that prefer it.
Because We spoke up.

Now both sides can be happy.

TL;DR: Complaints are not over reacting, they're complaints.

 

[Keptick]

For the folks saying those of us who are voicing concerns about the new system are "over reacting", no, We're not. We're giving feedback on a proposed system. And giving feedback on proposed systems, both positive and negative is the point of letting the masses play a game under development.
And to whoever it was above that feels that We shouldn't have access to dev builds or information, then why is the public even allowed to play this "Alpha build"? Why are We allowed to interact on the forums? The agreement here is that in exchange for letting us play this new game soon, and for the time being free, We put up with bugged / missing features, changes, and give feedback based on our own thoughts, opinions, and experiences. In other words; The devs invited us in and asked us of our opinions, deal with it.

The internet suffers from this problem that negative = ERMAGERDIMSOFLIPPINGANGRY!!! This simply isn't true.
Some of us didn't like the proposed idea, and spoke up. We gave feedback, and some folks even proposed compromises, adjustments, or alternate systems.

And look what happened:
We've just received word from the Cat Himself on how the system is to work, confirmation the He knows some of us are unhappy, and has revealed that there will be an option to revert to the old system for those of us that prefer it.
Because We spoke up.

Now both sides can be happy.

TL;DR: Complaints are not over reacting, they're complaints.

THIS!!!
The only complaints I've seen in this thread were against the constructive arguments made towards the new features. It's pretty apparent that the authors of most of these complaints didn't take the time to read because they argue different unrelated stuff...

 

[der_scheme]

So, we're basically not aloud to discuss things because we're not "official testers"?

LOL.

Had you actually read the thread you'd see that we actually welcome the feature,

Had you actually read one of my posts you would have understood what I'm talking about, which you obviously haven't.

WHICH YOU'D KNOW IS PRETTY GAME CHANGING IF YOU ACTUALLY PLAYED THE GAME!!!

So, what exactly is totally game changing about the default of an option changing from default to true and having a shiny UI for an old feature? Obviously, more servers might incorporate it, but its significance on the rest is rather low, isn't it?

I also strongly suggest that you reread that post you quoted, cause your response makes absolutely no sense. It's like I'm telling you the sky is blue and you blindly respond "NO, THE SKY IS BLUE, YOU'RE THE REASON WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS". You wot m9?

I have the feeling that you are the one lacking reading skills.

 

[Keptick]

LOL.


Had you actually read one of my posts you would have understood what I'm talking about, which you obviously haven't.


So, what exactly is totally game changing about the default of an option changing from default to true and having a shiny UI for an old feature? Obviously, more servers might incorporate it, but its significance on the rest is rather low, isn't it?


I have the feeling that you are the one lacking reading skills.

I actually laughed at this, sorry.[DOUBLEPOST=1417479966,1417479273][/DOUBLEPOST]der_scheme let me explain: We're just here discussing the new feature (I don't give a fuck that buy with blocks was already possible, the UI is new and it makes a good difference) and possible enhancements to it, along with how nice it is. And then you barge in telling us that we're bashing a useless feature and that dev builds should not be available to the public for that reason. Hence, my "uh... what?" reaction. We know that buy with blocks already existed, and we're not saying that it's not nice (it's actually better than buy with credits imo)


At least that's how I perceived your posts so far, maybe that's not what you meant but it's the message they convey.

 

[Criss]

God sometimes I think we are all really freaking dumb. Like the things we say to each other, or how arrogant everyone is about everything is just really really dumb. There is a toxicity that is building up in this community.

We need to get over our own selves and realize that the developers have put a lot of thought into the things they want to accomplish. Schema has released changes to the game (aside from the first crafting update) that really have only made the game better. We still do not have all the pieces, we have hardly tested a feature. No we aren't bashing on the one that was released today, but I think we should all calm down.

Everyone on this thread is "I think I'm right, here is a logical argument. Oh you have a different view? LOL"

Frankly, and we shall see what happens, but I think regardless of the current community, steam will decide the fate for this game. How important will you be when hundreds of thousands of players pick up this game?

 

[der_scheme]

I actually laughed at this, sorry.

Okay, then let me, only for you, formulate an analogy.

Imagine you were, back in the 200*s, the first company worldwide to release a mobile phone without keys. As soon as a rumor is leaked, people start sending you emails "I really want to buy your phone, but it needs keys, I can't use it without them!" and the like. Since you already have the total concept in front of you, you already thought of how people were going to use the phone without keys. Were those complaints helpful to you?

Or, a more current example: You probably have heard of Cyanogenmod. Did you know that they don't push out everything they do as soon they did it? The reason is that they don't want users complaining about obviously missing features.
They don't even accept bug reports at early stages, because they are already aware and those reports would waste everyone's time.

A final question, going back to my first post in this thread: Why didn't you guys open a thread in the early stages of the FTL update? Gates were a nice feature after all, but having only one pair of them was a little limiting, wasn't it?

 

[Mr.Steam]

I really think blocks need to come from SOMEWHERE, they shouldn't just pop into existence. I am sure this is the intent of this change. I do also think a mechanism needs to be in place so credits CAN be used to get the needed blocks and it is not up to the builder alone to find all the blocks themselves.

Perhaps a personal SHOP could broadcast its needs. Maybe an exclamation point over the shop symbol in the map and a list of needs could appear when the shop is clicked on. That way people would KNOW who needs what.

You have now opened up a whole new role for a Merchant player who goes from shop to shop delivering needed goods.

 

[El_Poulpy]

It's maybe too soon for a thread like this it may be wiser to wait until the feature is more developed. schema explained it was an half done feature and that he wanted to intensively test this part of it. That's why he pushed it in the release in order
for us to do our job of alpha testers.

When this feature will be complete I'd like to be able to buy a blueprint with credits in a shipyard. Like Mr.Steam explained in his first post. The trade guild has the blocks it just have to gather them (transport quests) or make generous tender if they don't have them. I want to believe that is like the mighty cat sees it.
And of course I would like to be able to repair my ship in a shipyard.

Ithirahad I think your concern (totally logical) is only justified with the feature half done like it is right now while this part of the feature is heavily tested and would be addressed in the finished feature.

der_scheme you say people shouldn't criticize a half done feature (very approximative reword) and better focus on the big picture (I mostly agree with you) but they hardly can if they don't see the goal. Maybe you should try to describe it, or push someone who can to do it, if you want to calm the worries.
I think the main problem is a lack of communication from schema. In my opinion, he should have add a paragraph where he clearly exposed what he wanted the shipyard to be when finished (adding of course it was a goal and that he maybe couldn't implement it exactly like that)

Thalanor maybe credit would be needed in order to regenerate asteroid belt, in that case a mining faction would have a use for it. It may be used to get protection from the trading guild or to hire and pay your NPC crew.

 

[Keptick]

Okay, then let me, only for you, formulate an analogy.

Imagine you were, back in the 200*s, the first company worldwide to release a mobile phone without keys. As soon as a rumor is leaked, people start sending you emails "I really want to buy your phone, but it needs keys, I can't use it without them!" and the like. Since you already have the total concept in front of you, you already thought of how people were going to use the phone without keys. Were those complaints helpful to you?

Or, a more current example: You probably have heard of Cyanogenmod. Did you know that they don't push out everything they do as soon they did it? The reason is that they don't want users complaining about obviously missing features.
They don't even accept bug reports at early stages, because they are already aware and those reports would waste everyone's time.

A final question, going back to my first post in this thread: Why didn't you guys open a thread in the early stages of the FTL update? Gates were a nice feature after all, but having only one pair of them was a little limiting, wasn't it?

let me explain: We're just here discussing the new feature (I don't give a fuck that buy with blocks was already possible, the UI is new and it makes a good difference) and possible enhancements to it, along with how nice it is. And then you barge in telling us that we're bashing a useless feature and that dev builds should not be available to the public for that reason. Hence, my "uh... what?" reaction. We know that buy with blocks already existed, and we're not saying that it's not nice (it's actually better than buy with credits imo)

The forums are already dead, so please let us discuss. OR EVEN BETTER! Let us know what is planned since we're apparently "so ignorant".

 

[Ithirahad]

let me explain: We're just here discussing the new feature (I don't give a fuck that buy with blocks was already possible, the UI is new and it makes a good difference) and possible enhancements to it, along with how nice it is. And then you barge in telling us that we're bashing a useless feature and that dev builds should not be available to the public for that reason. Hence, my "uh... what?" reaction. We know that buy with blocks already existed, and we're not saying that it's not nice (it's actually better than buy with credits imo)

The forums are already dead, so please let us discuss. OR EVEN BETTER! Let us know what is planned since we're apparently "so ignorant".

This kind of sums up my thoughts too, even as a bug reporter.

 

[Lecic]

Guys. der_scheme 's entire point is that the feature isn't complete yet, and we should let it sit for a bit while schema completes it, instead of shouting about something that is, with almost complete certainty, already planned.

Personally, I'll have no issue with buying things on the ship you don't have with credits if it costs the max price, plus a little something tacked on. It'll make it less annoying to include something like 3 medical cabinets on your ships.

This entire thread atm is both sides going "We need X!" and "No, you're wrong! What we need is X!"

 

[Ithirahad]

This entire thread atm is both sides going "We need X!" and "No, you're wrong! What we need is X!"

Eh, not really; it's devolved into that but originally there were two actual sides to the issue... It just got derailed by me, Keptick, and Scheme.

 

[der_scheme]

Guys. der_scheme 's entire point is that the feature isn't complete yet, and we should let it sit for a bit while schema completes it, instead of shouting about something that is, with almost complete certainty, already planned.

Personally, I'll have no issue with buying things on the ship you don't have with credits if it costs the max price, plus a little something tacked on. It'll make it less annoying to include something like 3 medical cabinets on your ships.

This entire thread atm is both sides going "We need X!" and "No, you're wrong! What we need is X!"

Thank you. Also, I can't tell you anything because I'm under an NDA.*

* Kidding, I'm not, but I wanted to use that joke. I have no idea what the big picture is (not even AndyP seems to, and he's Schine). I'm being patient and not judging from a one day old proof-of-concept. There sometimes are several development versions a day, there's simply no point in discussing every change, as all discussion is potentially void hours later. Don't expect schema to read all this—he wouldn't get to code otherwise.
As I also tried to point out earlier, discussions at this point might even be damaging. Other players not as involved as you are—and you are—people that don't know what a dev build is or how to get them, for instance, might misunderstand the entire discussion.

Also the reason, why schema seems excited about that feature: The small GUI is just an abstraction layer for something bigger, because the backend work is much more complex. When the feature is more complete, the UI might be removed again (I am not saying it will be), because the real usage might be intended differently. However, extinguishing bugs early is important, and that GUI allows testing which would only be possible with more features complete.

 

[Keptick]

guys.... I'll be able to outright spawn my titan in without needing to fill in any systems after purchase.

hue hue hue hue >: D

Edit: before anyone complains, keep in mind that it would still be a titanical investment (see what I did there?)

 

[MossyStone48]

I want to laugh but some part of me says it's wrong..

But yeah, the veterans on the servers do have a massive jumpstart. That puts you in the ideal position to enlist newbies and offer them some nice, proven, ship designs and your knowledge.