FTL is here! It's a StarGate!

[der_scheme]

nope, that is the worst way to escape a battle quickly as you need time and A LOT of energy and I hope Schema will make it almost impossible to escape battle quickly using jumpdrive without implying big risks, except for little spaceship (like raptors in battlestar galactica)

I don't want to be able to jump whenever I want with my big ship during a battle because that's not fair and will ruin the gameplay :/

On word: interdiction.

 

[ToyotaSupra]

This game seems to be entering the what I like to call 'YouTube Update Stage', where frequent changes happen but NOONE is happy about it...happens with any game that is in 'permanent development' such as Minecraft.

I'm sure that the FTL system and new thrust mechanics will be improved and refined over time as with most things in this game.

And on escaping battles quickly, Elite : Dangerous has a small timer of 5 seconds to prevent this.

Personally the only question I want to ask is: What else could this be used for? I'm sure Bench might do something cool with this.

 

[NeonSturm]

This game seems to be entering the what I like to call 'YouTube Update Stage', where frequent changes happen but NOONE is happy about it...happens with any game that is in 'permanent development' such as Minecraft.

I'm sure that the FTL system and new thrust mechanics will be improved and refined over time as with most things in this game.

And on escaping battles quickly, Elite : Dangerous has a small timer of 5 seconds to prevent this.

Personally the only question I want to ask is: What else could this be used for? I'm sure Bench might do something cool with this.

I am very happy about the updates, just pointing out balance issues before peoples start building their ships upon bad balance.

Thrust + FTL need to be non-redundant (long charge time ...)
Would like charge being reduced by interdiction stuff, or it would be partially redundant with cool-down.

You can do other things during cool-down which is nice but you can travel about 2 sectors in that time 1/4 jump which looks odd.

 

[FourFire]

nope, that is the worst way to escape a battle quickly as you need time and A LOT of energy and I hope Schema will make it almost impossible to escape battle quickly using jumpdrive without implying big risks, except for little spaceship (like raptors in battlestar galactica)

I don't want to be able to jump whenever I want with my big ship during a battle because that's not fair and will ruin the gameplay :/

No, I would argue that it would make battle more awesome, with further mechanics to use strategically, and the potential for a jumpdrive blocking projector block will make things more about preperation, ship design and fleet support instead of "who haz teh most blocks winz".

 

[WaffulMann]

I wouldn't call it stargate as much as a mass relay... Anyone built (or imported) one of these yet?

 

[takethispie]

I think exactly like NeoSturm said , I'm really really happy too , just pointing out balance issue
FTL isn't just a new weapon or a new decorative block , it's a whole new functionnality
we are just giving our opinion and debating on what has to be done with it before it's released and people complain about a few things ^^
I just want to help the dev Team of the best game I've ever played in 10 years of gaming

 

[NeonSturm]

Anyone checked already if (StarMade/data/blockConfig.xml -> Warp Gate Module set to non-physical (=walk-through) ) still let them work as intended?

What happens if you make the Warp Gate computer activatable?

 

[Keptick]

We need interdiction bubbles or something, maybe just making that the effect of slaving a normal pulse with beams? (with way better range).

I'd rather escape my dying ship in a stealth escape pod than being cowardly and jumping away.

 

[takethispie]

@NeonSturm sturm I think it doesn't change anything xD

@keptick FTL interdiction are planned if I remember right

 

[FunnyBunny14]

Well, it just is a better way to get out of battle before actually dying. You just have to survive while the warp drives charges, and your ship will have to be built specifically.
Also, the range of the warp drive is 8 sectors. Standard speed limit is 75. 8 10,000 sectors is 80 000 meters. 80,000/75= 1066 seconds, or 17 minutes and 47 seconds, and with overdrive it would be 8 minutes and 54 seconds.

Conclusion: it isn't too underpowered.
But: it is a bit too much for standard sectors. So it has to be configurable, and it has to be easy, so it would have to be in the server config.
But on the other hand: it only takes 105 seconds with 20 000 (!!!!!) mass, or 200 000 blocks (!!!!!!!!!!!!!), so really, it isn't that underpowered.

 

[Aridhol]

We need interdiction bubbles or something, maybe just making that the effect of slaving a normal pulse with beams? (with way better range).

I'd rather escape my dying ship in a stealth escape pod than being cowardly and jumping away.

Interdiction effect modules! Change your weapons to cause warp interruption but reduced damage and cost a bit more power

EDIT: Naturally the defensive effect would be to resist interdiction, so if your ship was really well powered you could activate the defensive effect and your jump drives and get away still, maybe.. the power generation for such a thing, yikes. But that's how it should be.

EDIT2: Would then anti power generation be a more effective interdiction method? Should EMP weapons also reduce generation by a percentage for a few seconds after being hit by it?

 

[NeonSturm]

Anyone checked already if (StarMade/data/blockConfig.xml -> Warp Gate Module set to non-physical (=walk-through) ) still let them work as intended?

What happens if you make the Warp Gate computer activatable?

@takethispie your right

I think they should be non-physical by default and only have activation texture (like area trigger modules).
Anybody noticed the change to 128 sectors for a gate? (a dev I downloaded between this and last post)

        <JumpDrive>
                <BasicValues>
                       <RatioNeededToTotalBlockCount>0.05</RatioNeededToTotalBlockCount>
            <ChargeNeededForJump>230000</ChargeNeededForJump>
            <ChargeNeededForJumpPerBlock>1200</ChargeNeededForJumpPerBlock> <!-- (in drive module blocks) added to <chargeNeededForJump> -->
            <ChargeNeededForJumpPerBlockAfterRatioMet>1</ChargeNeededForJumpPerBlockAfterRatioMet> <!-- (in drive module blocks for every block after ratio is met -->
            <ReloadMsAfterUseMs>10</ReloadMsAfterUseMs>
            <ChargeAddedPerSecond>10000</ChargeAddedPerSecond>
            <ChargeAddedPerSecondPerBlock>50</ChargeAddedPerSecondPerBlock> <!-- (in drive module blocks) -->
            <DistanceInSectors>8</DistanceInSectors>
                </BasicValues>
        </JumpDrive>
        <WarpGate>
                <BasicValues>
                        <PowerNeededPerGateBlock>400</PowerNeededPerGateBlock> <!-- constant power consumption to keep the gate active -->
                        <PowerNeededPerMass>1000</PowerNeededPerMass> <!-- to Jump, the One Time Power Expense is shipMass * PowerNeededPerMass at the time of jumping-->
                        <DistanceInSectors>128</DistanceInSectors> <!-- default: 8 systems -->
                </BasicValues>
        </WarpGate>

With this stats:

23 seconds to charge up with no modules (theoretical)
24 seconds per block
(seconds) charge time = f(x = 0 + module-count above 5%) = (23 + 24 * x) / (x+1)

As fair as I understand it only counts modules above 5% for x.



I think StarGates should drain more power the longer the distance to their destination.

        <WarpGate>
                <BasicValues>
                        <PowerNeededPerGateBlock[PerSector]>400[= 4 - it's per sector]</PowerNeededPerGateBlock> <!-- constant power consumption to keep the gate active -->
                        <PowerNeededPerMass[PerSector]>1000[=10 - it's per sector]</PowerNeededPerMass> <!-- to Jump, the One Time Power Expense is shipMass * PowerNeededPerMass [*sectors] at the time of jumping-->
                        <[Max]DistanceInSectors>128</DistanceInSectors> <!-- default: 8 systems -->
                </BasicValues>
        </WarpGate>

[Added] stuff I would like to see.

 

[Mered4]

@takethispie your right

I think they should be non-physical by default and only have activation texture (like area trigger modules).
Anybody noticed the change to 128 sectors for a gate? (a dev I downloaded between this and last post)

        <JumpDrive>
                <BasicValues>
                       <RatioNeededToTotalBlockCount>0.05</RatioNeededToTotalBlockCount>
            <ChargeNeededForJump>230000</ChargeNeededForJump>
            <ChargeNeededForJumpPerBlock>1200</ChargeNeededForJumpPerBlock> <!-- (in drive module blocks) added to <chargeNeededForJump> -->
            <ChargeNeededForJumpPerBlockAfterRatioMet>1</ChargeNeededForJumpPerBlockAfterRatioMet> <!-- (in drive module blocks for every block after ratio is met -->
            <ReloadMsAfterUseMs>10</ReloadMsAfterUseMs>
            <ChargeAddedPerSecond>10000</ChargeAddedPerSecond>
            <ChargeAddedPerSecondPerBlock>50</ChargeAddedPerSecondPerBlock> <!-- (in drive module blocks) -->
            <DistanceInSectors>8</DistanceInSectors>
                </BasicValues>
        </JumpDrive>
        <WarpGate>
                <BasicValues>
                        <PowerNeededPerGateBlock>400</PowerNeededPerGateBlock> <!-- constant power consumption to keep the gate active -->
                        <PowerNeededPerMass>1000</PowerNeededPerMass> <!-- to Jump, the One Time Power Expense is shipMass * PowerNeededPerMass at the time of jumping-->
                        <DistanceInSectors>128</DistanceInSectors> <!-- default: 8 systems -->
                </BasicValues>
        </WarpGate>

With this stats:

23 seconds to charge up with no modules (theoretical)
24 seconds per block
(seconds) charge time = f(x = 0 + module-count above 5%) = (23 + 24 * x) / (x+1)

As fair as I understand it only counts modules above 5% for x.



I think StarGates should drain more power the longer the distance to their destination.

        <WarpGate>
                <BasicValues>
                        <PowerNeededPerGateBlock[PerSector]>400[= 4 - it's per sector]</PowerNeededPerGateBlock> <!-- constant power consumption to keep the gate active -->
                        <PowerNeededPerMass[PerSector]>1000[=10 - it's per sector]</PowerNeededPerMass> <!-- to Jump, the One Time Power Expense is shipMass * PowerNeededPerMass [*sectors] at the time of jumping-->
                        <[Max]DistanceInSectors>128</DistanceInSectors> <!-- default: 8 systems -->
                </BasicValues>
        </WarpGate>

[Added] stuff I would like to see.

Are these current? Because my 1300 sector jumpgate connections still work.....

 

[NeonSturm]

Are these current? Because my 1300 sector jumpgate connections still work.....

dunno. the latest dev download
It changed gate power consumption, thus it should have overwritten this too.

 

[Mered4]

dunno. the latest dev download
It changed gate power consumption, thus it should have overwritten this too.

Testing Gate power consumption now with a Super Gate. StargateZero has more than enough for pretty much any ship that can fit through it.

 

[Fiddlejam]

So, honestly, does anybody see any reason to limit jumping capabilities through demanding 10% of the ship to be jump drives?
Because I honestly don't do so. I also agree that it will encourage making a giant solid ships without rooms, but I think the most important question here is "Why should jumping be hard, and why do we consider wasting space hard?" Jumping is for transport. In the long term, it should control the flow of ships and how the galaxy gets explored. It shouldn't be some sort of special feature, it should be standard, for everyone to use. Jumping during fights obviously has to be balanced, but on the greater scale of war, a retreat is a defeat as well, isn't it.
It could still be balanced through power usage and maybe debuffs to the ship after arriving at the intended location, charge times etc., but I'd really like it if we could move away from the whole balancing through block count thing, because that's what lead to the whole problem of solid, fully packed ships in the first place.

 

[der_scheme]

So, honestly, does anybody see any reason to limit jumping capabilities through demanding 10% of the ship to be jump drives?
Because I honestly don't do so. I also agree that it will encourage making a giant solid ships without rooms, but I think the most important question here is "Why should jumping be hard, and why do we consider wasting space hard?" Jumping is for transport. In the long term, it should control the flow of ships and how the galaxy gets explored. It shouldn't be some sort of special feature, it should be standard, for everyone to use. Jumping during fights obviously has to be balanced, but on the greater scale of war, a retreat is a defeat as well, isn't it.
It could still be balanced through power usage and maybe debuffs to the ship after arriving at the intended location, charge times etc., but I'd really like it if we could move away from the whole balancing through block count thing, because that's what lead to the whole problem of solid, fully packed ships in the first place.

The current aim is 5% for the ability to FTL. I did some math.

 

[NeonSturm]

but I'd really like it if we could move away from the whole balancing through block count thing, because that's what lead to the whole problem of solid, fully packed ships in the first place.

Mass, not block count :p

No, the issue arose by using box dims for reducing turning speed and instead of doing something like buffing acceleration or hp if you have many un-used space in your ship.

 

[Fiddlejam]

The current aim is 5% for the ability to FTL. I did some math.

Well, it seems better, but honestly, I'd still cut it out. I also honestly don't like the concept of hyperdrive, still. (I don't even know whether I understand it correctly we aim at a point and just get a giant boost? So it's like the jump drive, but completely unprecise, and useless since you're unable to move any other way?) I've talked about in my own suggestion thread. I'd use a system with only Gates and Jumpdrives that don't need blocks. Bigger ships jump farer, gates don't work by size, with a ring, but by mass, like the mass relays in Mass Effect. (Mass. Mass. Mass. Mass... :P )

The problem I essentially have is that people will always try min-maxxing their ship, and that accordingly, connecting "power" (in the "might"-sense, not energy) to block count/mass/size is good for some systems. Shields and weapons, obviously. You have limited space and try to find a good distribution. You place different distributions of blocks to achieve different levels of specialization/effectivity. It's about "power".

Meanwhile, the jump drive is about "functionality". It's an all or nothing system. It doesn't work if you make it smaller. If you want to truly min-max a ship, you would be forced to cut out the jump drive to make more space for the "power"-parts. At which point everyone would say "This ship is really dumb, because it doesn't have that awesome jump drive".
That choice really shouldn't have to be made. When the game universe starts being a more important and structured place, some sort of fast travel will be a must for, well, everyone. So everyone should have a jump drive.

To make it short, I believe functionality should not be balanced with space requirements. Do it with energy, or even absolute, timed cooldowns. If everyone has to have a jump drive, there's no point in balancing the people who do in relation to the non-existing people who don't.

 

[Mered4]

Well, it seems better, but honestly, I'd still cut it out. I also honestly don't like the concept of hyperdrive, still. (I don't even know whether I understand it correctly we aim at a point and just get a giant boost? So it's like the jump drive, but completely unprecise, and useless since you're unable to move any other way?) I've talked about in my own suggestion thread. I'd use a system with only Gates and Jumpdrives that don't need blocks. Bigger ships jump farer, gates don't work by size, with a ring, but by mass, like the mass relays in Mass Effect. (Mass. Mass. Mass. Mass... :p )

The problem I essentially have is that people will always try min-maxxing their ship, and that accordingly, connecting "power" (in the "might"-sense, not energy) to block count/mass/size is good for some systems. Shields and weapons, obviously. You have limited space and try to find a good distribution. You place different distributions of blocks to achieve different levels of specialization/effectivity. It's about "power".

Meanwhile, the jump drive is about "functionality". It's an all or nothing system. It doesn't work if you make it smaller. If you want to truly min-max a ship, you would be forced to cut out the jump drive to make more space for the "power"-parts. At which point everyone would say "This ship is really dumb, because it doesn't have that awesome jump drive".
That choice really shouldn't have to be made. When the game universe starts being a more important and structured place, some sort of fast travel will be a must for, well, everyone. So everyone should have a jump drive.

To make it short, I believe functionality should not be balanced with space requirements. Do it with energy, or even absolute, timed cooldowns. If everyone has to have a jump drive, there's no point in balancing the people who do in relation to the non-existing people who don't.

Maybe if there wasn't a hard limit for JumpDrive Modules - and instead, it would build up to that point, for a certain MAXIMUM warp range, but anything below that would have less range.