Prerelease v0.200.250

    Criss

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    Criss did you not see my request? I'll quote it here for you

    My message wasn't rude so I expect an answer even if it's no.
    I do not have the ships. Lancake worked on them. We will be doing them again once the new power system is available.

    but how about you wait on trying to force that volume in too?
    I explained it in the post that you responded to. If we make changes, then add crew, we will need to revert those changes. The problem, or at least one problem here seems to be that we are forced to waste space between stabilizers and reactors. Building interiors does nothing for a ship currently. Makes sense. I would rather we not rebuild our ships yet again because we added crew, and you don't have the space for it because we reduced the distance requirement between those two components.
     
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    I explained it in the post that you responded to. If we make changes, then add crew, we will need to revert those changes. The problem, or at least one problem here seems to be that we are forced to waste space between stabilizers and reactors. Building interiors does nothing for a ship currently. Makes sense. I would rather we not rebuild our ships yet again because we added crew, and you don't have the space for it because we reduced the distance requirement between those two components.
    Why dont you just not enforce pointless space requirements that do nothing but create restrictions on building choices (which goes directly against your original intent for 2.0 in the first place) that gives no actual benefit at all?

    "Oh but you will need space for interior when we add crew" is a stupid excuse and screams lazy development.
    [doublepost=1513851381,1513851280][/doublepost]Also, why would you need to revert changes if you added crew? You could still get rid of the forced space requirement and you would not need to add it in with crew, crew mechanics if implemented the way we have been told they will be will already give a reason to make interior space without you needing to fuck with the already fucked up state of power?
     

    Criss

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    "Oh but you will need space for interior when we add crew" is a stupid excuse and screams lazy development.
    Not that I want to specifically restrict build choices, but if you will eventually be using that space for crew or other interior mechanics, then what does it matter if you're dedicating that space now or later?
     
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    but if you will eventually be using that space for crew or other interior mechanics, then what does it matter if you're dedicating that space now or later?
    What will happen in several months from now when you get around to implementing crew is not relevent to the issue.

    People play this game now, today. When crew gets added then there will be an actual reason to leave empty space, but currently this forced space serves no purpose other then to limit the player with forced design choices. Which is something the devsquad made very clear that they wanted to get rid of with 2.0.
     

    Non

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    we will need to revert those changes.
    No, you wont.
    I would rather we not rebuild our ships yet again because we added crew, and you don't have the space for it because we reduced the distance requirement between those two components.
    The addition of crew and the development of a new meta in a crew based system would already force ship redesign. To assume that an interior you make (or space you make for an interior) would effectively work within the undefined mechanics of future crew updates is foolish. We as players have no idea what requirements an interior would need to allow crew, so either way, we would have to rebuild our ships. You aren't really saving us any time, thats just a bad excuse.
    [doublepost=1513856158,1513855966][/doublepost]
    what does it matter if you're dedicating that space now or later?
    Because we have no idea if what we make now will work later for interior, maybe our walls don't count as walls because we used system blocks for part of it. Maybe there will be a minimum room size for a ship mass that we don't yet know about. We don't know the mechanics, so trying to do it now is wasteful.
     

    Matt_Bradock

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    I do not have the ships. Lancake worked on them. We will be doing them again once the new power system is available.


    I explained it in the post that you responded to. If we make changes, then add crew, we will need to revert those changes. The problem, or at least one problem here seems to be that we are forced to waste space between stabilizers and reactors. Building interiors does nothing for a ship currently. Makes sense. I would rather we not rebuild our ships yet again because we added crew, and you don't have the space for it because we reduced the distance requirement between those two components.
    I swear to God I'm not trying to nitpick here. But what has to be said, has to be said.

    I recommend you contact Lancake since I gave him a blueprint of a ship in both the OldPower systems and the Power 2.0 refit WIP stage, same exact hull, same exact defensive and thrust stats as the old one, and roughly the same offensive capabilities as well.

    Those 2 ships currently represent everything wrong with the new system: the large empty spaces left by the compressed systems, the glaring critical vulnerability of vital systems having to occupy both the front and the rear parts of the vessel, and the painful realisation that despite the rather large (for its size) and vulnerably placed reactor/stabiliser/chamber system, it still fails to power the same (statwise) systems its OldPower counterpart easily could, simply because the hull was built taking aesthetics into account and not built from scratch to adapt to the new system. Note that, while it is a ship fit for PvP engagements in its size range, IT DOES HAVE A DECENTLY DETAILED RP INTERIOR (Even a rail elevator... so I really tried). Just not at the ratio the NPC ships (the Schine designs) do, because performance and survivability was also an important aspect of the original design.

    At the introduction of the power 2.0 system, a promise was made that the same hull can be fit for the same systems and performance as the OldPower version could. That promise was NOT fulfilled.
    Not only are the systems much harder to power with the new reactors, the utility of the ships are also hurt due to how the chamber system works, AND critical vulnerabilities are necessary to accomodate the required distance between the reactor and stabiliser system. Essentially, you HAVE TO place them in the parts which will get the most incoming fire both when on the offense and when trying to escape (the front and the back of the ship, unless it's a vertically or horizontally elongated design).

    To be honest, taking the Schine designs as an example when balancing systems performance is a questionable choice. Those vessels, even the larger ones, that are in the NPC fleet roster, have glaring weaknesses even in the old power. I remember Saber and Raiben fighting with those on stream and a single cannon shot (pulse cannon, I think) WENT THROUGH THE ENTIRE SHIP'S SPINE LENGTHWISE AND TOOK OUT ALL WEAPON COMPUTERS IN A SINGLE SHOT. That was a really embarrassing moment, because no half-decent builder who ever had thoughts about PvP or even PvE vs anything but the default enemies, would have made that design mistake (Sorry, Raiben and Saber )

    At least do us (and yourselves) the favor and grab some blueprints from the Community Content's highest rated or most downloaded, or maybe some that are tagged with PvP, and take a look at how THOSE perform in the system changes, so you get an idea of what the design elements the majority of the community use, work in the new environment.

    Let me make myself clear here: I AM NOT IN FAVOR OF REMOVING THE STABILISERS OR REVERTING TO THE OLD SYSTEM.
    I do see the advantages of the new one, such as the improved stealth/counter-stealth mechanic.
    The new reactor and chamber system does have its virtues.
    What I do ask for (Again, no demands, I'm aware I'm not in the position to make any demands) is a revision of the exact values that determine the distance and efficiency scaling in regards of power and stabilisers, and the exact values in power consumption and stats provided on the systems blocks, in order to allow for easier creation of efficient reactors, and for multiple possible placement options (for example, in a more protectable position, or at the center of the ship where a reactor core mostly is on 90% of sci-fi designs) while still being efficient enough to provide enough power for the same amount of systems (again, statwise, not blockwise) as the old power system was capable of, without requiring serious design changes. If you like detailed interior spaces, then let people build a huge (yet functional) reactor core in the middle of the ship, with decorated conduits leading to the different chambers on the sides, instead of having to squeeze the reactor blocks in an as thin as possible layer onto the rearmost blocks of the inside of the hull in order to have any kind of hope for decent stabiliser efficiency.
    That would be great.
     
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    Criss if your going to take anything away from this please look at Matt_Bradock post above. It highlights key points well without anger or frustration.

    Thank you for your time. :catnod:
     

    Ithirahad

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    What happens when we add crew and suddenly you want a bit of interior space for them?
    Then we add... interior... It's not exactly impossible under this current system. The way that you and Saber have been building interior is probably creating a (probably false, but somewhat subjective) perception that systems are too big, but it seems that you're just trying to build (relatively) huge interiors on small ships. I've been there too. It doesn't end well, and it isn't necessary.
    I know you're going to rate this as funny and complain and say we are purposefully ignoring you, but you just told me that if we want you to build interiors, then we need to add crew. Okay. Then it's going to have to wait. That's the hard truth.
    Yeah, but the point is that it didn't have to wait. Crew should likely have been implemented first before trying to put artificial limits on how much of a ship's internal volume we choose to use. Nobody's saying 'add crew this very second' as that's impossible and we all know it. Just that this was the wrong direction to approach this.

    ...Also, what if the crew quarters needed to make a ship run well don't even end up taking as much z-axis space as the stabilizers 'give' us? Then there will be no excuse... or what if they take more for some reason? Then the stabilizers will be rather redundant, won't they. Seems to me that changes will have to be made (or potentially completely reversed) one way or the other, unless you guys want to try and bind crew quarters sizes for a given ship size to the stabilizer balance that comes out with this update, which I really hope won't happen (and won't work anyway, as crew quarters are three-dimensional and this system as it stands is primarily one-dimensional)
     
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    StormWing0

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    Sorry to say but forcing ship size with reactor size in the way it's being done is the problem people are complaining about most of us can build full interiors without being forced to have 100x that in void space inside our ships. I could see the forced space being localized to the area around the reactor in a different way but currently this forces WHY TOO MUCH along 1 dimension and kills any build RP or PvP that isn't a long stick. People are telling you forcing space with the power system is not the way to go. Give us the tools to map out Crew Quarters even if crew isn't going to be around for a while and we'll make said interiors as we see fit as we've already done. You all said this new power system wouldn't force a design type but it does far more so than the current one does.
     
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    Also why not have some Decorative hull types? Unlike normal hull blocks they'd be lighter and cost less but also their stats would be extremely low a well. This would allow players to make super light ships without having to use normal hull or decorative blocks.
    • Decoration blocks are now as heavy as hull. I don't know why this was done, but it needs to be undone.
    • Decoration blocks no longer add anything to the ship. They used to add HP, but there is no longer any HP to add to.
    Currently in the dev build Decour has apparently been given a huge mass increase without any explanation.
    Because any block that has a mass of 0.01 (even if it has only 1 HP) tanks the damage better than ANY armor by mass. If you change advanced armor, standard armor or hull for the equivalent mass of girders or any other blocks with 0.01 mass your ship survivability will increase due to how damage propagates through blocks.

    The only place where it could be debatable is probably missile shields (aka spaced armor, aka whipple shields). They may better be done with hull due to how light blocks will blow up your dimensions if used in multiple spaced layers.

    Not that I want to specifically restrict build choices, but if you will eventually be using that space for crew or other interior mechanics, then what does it matter if you're dedicating that space now or later?
    Because demands for crew quarters and control rooms are very different to stabilizers. Because stabilisers are a mechanical part whose only purpose is to make ships longer and more vulnerable. Because they are not needed for enforcing the size of the ship, any other way that doesn't need a dedicated block for that purpose could have been chosen as easily. Because it makes ship conform to a certain (very limited) standard of shape. And because currently they already have 2 additional mechanics tied to them with no clear purpose besides supporting stabilisers themselves and not actual systems of the ship - I'm talking about power streams and damage to RHP at low stabilisation.

    Overall if these systems are intended to make ships much more uniform in shape, larger and more vulnerable it works as intended. Otherwise not so much.
     

    Valiant70

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    Building interiors does nothing for a ship currently. Makes sense. I would rather we not rebuild our ships yet again because we added crew, and you don't have the space for it because we reduced the distance requirement between those two components
    The only reasonable thing you can do for that right now is try to make interiors less of a detriment by adjusting the values for decoration blocks. They're too heavy, and add absolutely nothing functional. They should be lighter (like they were before!) and add some armor HP since system HP is no longer a thing.
    [doublepost=1513875272,1513875190][/doublepost]
    Because any block that has a mass of 0.01 (even if it has only 1 HP) tanks the damage better than ANY armor by mass. If you change advanced armor, standard armor or hull for the equivalent mass of girders or any other blocks with 0.01 mass your ship survivability will increase due to how damage propagates through blocks.
    Then solve this problem instead of making a new one. Either give the decoration blocks the same stats and behavior as hull, or make them vaporize without stopping weapon fire.
    [doublepost=1513875866][/doublepost]
    The complaint i see mpst is "i am forced to include to much empty space... well... you can shorten the design and include more stabilizers then there is less empty space... still 100% reactor efficiency... still smaller than a massive ship on one dimension.... i personally have enjoyed the stabilizers because it turned the powerhouse ships into unusable junk and forced everyone to do a full redesign... i dont mind not seeing ships with 200k/sec shield regen, and 200 mil shields... battles are actually fun again.
    o_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_O

    :mad:

    The complaint is that you have to build your ship as a long stick (please refrain from... THOSE comments) in order to get enough power for your systems. At some point, your hull will be heavy enough that it's better to shorten the ship and add more stabilizers, but if you take that too far it starts getting heavier again. Being too heavy is bad. Being forced to design ships the same way as Schine's NPC ones (which perform poorly) is REALLY bad. We all have our own styles, and that's the real complaint.
    [doublepost=1513875952][/doublepost]
    Not that I want to specifically restrict build choices, but if you will eventually be using that space for crew or other interior mechanics, then what does it matter if you're dedicating that space now or later?
    That doesn't make any sense. Either we plan for that or we redesign our ships again in a few years.
     
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    I explained it in the post that you responded to. If we make changes, then add crew, we will need to revert those changes. The problem, or at least one problem here seems to be that we are forced to waste space between stabilizers and reactors. Building interiors does nothing for a ship currently. Makes sense. I would rather we not rebuild our ships yet again because we added crew, and you don't have the space for it because we reduced the distance requirement between those two components.
    Crew aren't going to fix the issue with power. The issue with power is that the most efficient design is very long in one dimension, leading to sticks. Add crew, and those sticks get longer so they can fit people in them too. The idea is that interiors should be included in ships, and using the power system to try and do this WILL NOT WORK! Let the future crew system be the driving factor for interiors in your ships and remove stabilizers completely.

    And not having to rebuild ships over and over is not a realistic expectation for a game in Alpha, things change. The only way around that is to not make ships until everything is set in stone, because now the work to rebuild them is a driving factor for keeping a subpar system no one wants.
     

    Valiant70

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    Crew aren't going to fix the issue with power. The issue with power is that the most efficient design is very long in one dimension, leading to sticks. Add crew, and those sticks get longer so they can fit people in them too. The idea is that interiors should be included in ships, and using the power system to try and do this WILL NOT WORK! Let the future crew system be the driving factor for interiors in your ships and remove stabilizers completely.
    This is true, but if the stabilizers get worked on some more they could become something interesting and worth keeping. Otherwise we need to get rid of them. Dev builds have slowed down today so I think Schema might be scheming something. Give it a couple days and see if the Schine crew comes up with something.
     

    Lecic

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    If that's what the actual problem is, then I have to say sorry...? Sorry because we can't do everything at once. If this problem is nullified by having a functioning crew system then we will unfortunately have to wait for crew. Yeah we could fix everything according to your specifications right now. Sure. What happens when we add crew and suddenly you want a bit of interior space for them? Well we will be going back and fourth on this issue until every major feature of the gameplay is in...

    I know you're going to rate this as funny and complain and say we are purposefully ignoring you, but you just told me that if we want you to build interiors, then we need to add crew. Okay. Then it's going to have to wait. That's the hard truth.
    You don't know how much interior space and what kind of interior space we're going to need for our crew, and even if you do, WE don't, and it's likely to change anyway. Trying to force interior through the stabilizer system is a stupid idea. Stop trying to justify it. It is harmful to many ship shapes (Ithirahad made a good post with images on this earlier) and makes the power system worse as a result.

    Red = reactor-stabilizer position and distance
    Yellow = maximum interior that I could imagine putting on the ship given the mechanics... of course, the 'Virga' interior would likely end up smaller if I wanted a bunch of chambers on it.

    I swear to God, talking to you is like taking to a brick wall. The problem is that you are trying to plan ahead for a system that you have no idea what the balance is going to be like for, through a system that actively makes the majority of ship shapes worse.

    Of course we are going to have to wait for crew. I am asking you to not ruin the game with a shitty mechanic in the meantime. Crew does not fix the problems with stabilizers and the fact that you would even suggest that makes me think you're barely even reading our posts.

    I explained it in the post that you responded to. If we make changes, then add crew, we will need to revert those changes. The problem, or at least one problem here seems to be that we are forced to waste space between stabilizers and reactors. Building interiors does nothing for a ship currently. Makes sense. I would rather we not rebuild our ships yet again because we added crew, and you don't have the space for it because we reduced the distance requirement between those two components.
    The space you are attempting to set aside for interiors through stabilizers varies massively depending on the dimensions of a vessel. Just put a normal power system in and let us retrofit our ships later. Holy fucking shit, it's an ALPHA GAME. We are used to refitting our ships! Some of us even enjoy reworking our things to new mechanics. The people who want to plan ahead for crew can build their interiors right now! You don't need to try and force it early and fuck everything up!

    You will not have to revert the removal or fixing of stabilizers when you add crew. Just add crew! Stabilizer distances attempting to force interior are not necessary if you already have crew in that require interior space!

    Not that I want to specifically restrict build choices, but if you will eventually be using that space for crew or other interior mechanics, then what does it matter if you're dedicating that space now or later?
    If you don't want to restrict build choices, then stop pushing for a system that restricts everyone who doesn't build a needle or dumbbell.

    You don't know what the final balance for crew will be, and WE certainly don't. WE are going to have to refit our ships again anyway. Just let us have a good power system instead of having us wait another 6 months for the weapons update and then ANOTHER 6 months minimum for crew afterwards, assuming that's even the next big update after weapons. It could be literal years before crew get released, and you want us to suffer under a shitty power system on the justification of "maybe future crew soonish™" for that long? You might actually kill the game doing this.

    PS- Stop doing so much cherry picking with the points you argue. It's very annoying to type up all this stuff and then having you go after one line that barely mattered to the whole of the post.
     

    Ithirahad

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    you want us to suffer under a shitty power system on the justification of "maybe future crew soonish™" for that long?
    ...Yeah, which isn't even a justification because... well, essentially, crew quarters will hopefully not be forcibly arranged in straight lines between the reactor and the opposite side of the ship. :P
     

    Criss

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    maybe our walls don't count as walls because we used system blocks for part of it.
    That is not how the system would work. It would be too heavy on performance to read what blocks a wall is made of. There is a good chance areas on the ship will be designated in a similar manner to how the new copy paste works. That's a guess however, based on our last discussions on it, and whether we find a better system.

    same exact defensive and thrust stats as the old one, and roughly the same offensive capabilities as well.
    That sounds like part of the problem. The numbers are not supposed to match the old system. You're trying to achieve the same levels of power that you had before, with a system that operates in a completely different manner. Weapons are next on our to-do list. We aim to reduce the blocks needed in order to be effective, in both their power and how damage is distributed. Perhaps these should have been introduced in tandem, but that is sadly not the case.

    revision of the exact values that determine the distance and efficiency scaling in regards of power and stabilisers
    I'm not opposed to this. The problem is that removing or reducing stabilizer requirements on a ship means we return to a meta where ships are filled to the brim with system blocks. There will be no cap on power inside a confined volume until you fill that volume. That is why Schema does not remove them. It's the exact opposite of the goal we set out to accomplish.

    adjusting the values for decoration blocks.
    This I agree with. I will see why changes were made that rendered them useless.

    talking to you is like taking to a brick wall.
    Lecic, I can't just turn around and say "You're 100% right" and change things without looking at potential consequences. I can't even begin to see the problems that Schema sees if we removed stabilizers entirely. I have brought information to them, and they've explained why certain suggestions break things or how certain meta isn't as clever as you claim it to be.

    For instance; Ithirihad showcased a stabilizer ring around their power core, and claimed it was a work-around for the new energy beam system. The stabilizer ring is easy to hit since it's a giant ring, and hard to shield since it isn't localized. If the player has a knowledge of the mechanics, they will know the reactor is dead center of the ring and will fire on that area.
     

    Valiant70

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    For instance; Ithirihad showcased a stabilizer ring around their power core, and claimed it was a work-around for the new energy beam system. The stabilizer ring is easy to hit since it's a giant ring, and hard to shield since it isn't localized. If the player has a knowledge of the mechanics, they will know the reactor is dead center of the ring and will fire on that area.
    That was me, and I even commented that it's not as strong as it looks at the end of the post.