StarMade Dev Blog 17 November 2017

[Dire Venom]

Intersting disscusion.
I think for a shot to be effective it needs to penertrate and damage a number of systems blocks. Destroying armour means nothing for the ship getting hit until the systems are touched.
Thus low power shots will fail to penertrate enough armour blocks and are thus in-effective, while high powered shots will get mostly depleted and instead of dealing system damage, will be soaked by the shields regen.

What this idea is doing is simply just focusing on protecting the system blocks, and using the shield for bleed through. 0 damage is done until most of the block, and then the shield has been destroyed?

 

[Non]

By dimension i mean not a specific shape. The reactor itself doesn't scale with ship dimensions. You are free to chose the shape. Anything else would cause exponential block growth.

Theres the miscommunication, reactor size scales with a ships max size through its maximum efficiency, shape of the reactor has nothing to do with it, but a pvp ship has no reason to make a power system that isnt 100% efficient.

 

[schema]

Lecic I see the concern there. However this seems like a general issue with armor which is probably possible to balance within the system. It's not something that the local shields are the reason for causing, right? They just make something that needs balance more obvious.
[doublepost=1510981781,1510981677][/doublepost]Non yeah, I miss worded that a bit. What I mean is what you said, which is to control the rate at which the reactor grows over the rate the volume scales.

 

[Lecic]

Lecic I see the concern there. However this seems like a general issue with armor which is probably possible to balance within the system. It's not something that the local shields are the reason for causing, right? They just make something that needs balance more obvious.

The set up I have described is literally impossible to create without either shield bubbles or shield transfer up the docking chain not being 100%.

It is not an armor problem. It is entirely a shield problem. Which you have, instead of fixing, made an official game mechanic.

 

[schema]

It shouldn't be a shield problem though. If armor is balanced right. I don't actually mind for armor to be used as, well, armor. It just needs to be balanced so that it doesn't get overpowered or without downsides. The new weapon updates we have planned will help with that, as they insure that more % of a weapons damage actually hit blocks.

 

[Non]

However this seems like a general issue with armor which is probably possible to balance within the system. It's not something that the local shields are the reason for causing, right? They just make something that needs balance more obvious.

Fact is, youve got a good chunk of the pvp community on this thread telling you the new shields are a bad idea for several reasons, making the game easier for experienced players and considerably harder for new players, and you dont seem to want to accept that, or at least are unwilling to do anything about it.

 

[schema]

Non, the one valid reason so far that was brought up I'm currently discussing. And if you read my last post, I'm going to do something about the apparent problem that armor in this current balance creates. Not sure what else you want. The shields weren't meant to solve the docked hull problem, as i repeatedly pointed out.

 

[Lecic]

It shouldn't be a shield problem though. If armor is balanced right. I don't actually mind for armor to be used as, well, armor. It just needs to be balanced so that it doesn't get overpowered or without downsides. The new weapon updates we have planned will help with that, as they insure that more % of a weapons damage actually hit blocks.

If your intention is to make ion and pierce weapons useless and for armor to be used as a supplement to shields rather than as a viable standalone protection system, then that's your decision, but I can't say I agree with it.

 

[Jebediah1]

Greetings citizens, ~

~ Turret aim mode: manually aim turrets from your mothership

oh shit turret aim mode

 

[Ithirahad]

It shouldn't be a shield problem though. If armor is balanced right. I don't actually mind for armor to be used as, well, armor. It just needs to be balanced so that it doesn't get overpowered or without downsides. The new weapon updates we have planned will help with that, as they insure that more % of a weapons damage actually hit blocks.

The problem with this is that armor is actually vastly underpowered if you use it the way 90% of players would, as a defensive measure under (or instead of) your shields. The one case in which it becomes 'overpowered' is this shield-under-sponge arrangement, which can technically be done with other blocks too albeit with less effectiveness. This is a problem introduced by the new zone shield system specifically.

 

[schema]

Ithirahad and exactly that is to be addressed with directing the full damage of shots to the blocks rather than dissipating only destroying very few on a high damage shot.

Lecic these weapon and effect systems are going to be subject to overall balance and system changes. We are also discussing different possible shield types against different types of damage, but i can't promise yet that anything of that is going to make it into the game.

 

[Ithirahad]

Welp, I've gotta go for the night myself (12:30 here, past midnight). Assuming you've been staying up, Schema, sorry we kept you up until 6:30 in the morning ^^

Thanks a lot for taking the time to discuss this stuff and answer some questions. o/

 

[schema]

Ithirahad np. Have a food night

 

[Non]

Not sure what else you want

I want the new shields abandoned, or replaced with something better.

the one valid reason

We have several times brought up that as a result of the new shield system, block damage weapons made by inexperienced players will be virtually unable to kill a half decently built ship. Any area where shields go down (assuming they don't go down over the entire ship, in which case it would be the same as the current combat system) has to be precisely targeted to deal meaningful block damage. Both beams and cannons will be useless for dealing block damage at combat range because they can't effectively hit the same area over time, and that those two weapon types are what new players rely on most. Missiles are the best way to deal damage in the new system by far, but new players also aren't very good at making effective missile systems and probably wont be able to damage enemy ships with them. The new shield system makes it impossible for inexperienced players to compete with pvp players. If you don't consider that a valid reason, then you aren't balancing pvp.

 

[schema]

>Both beams and cannons will be useless for dealing block damage at combat range

this will not be the case anymore with the weapon update. Not only that but the new recon system allows players to actually find out where the weak points are in your ship and target them. I just don't see the local shields as the reason for the problems you are describing. I agree that they make problems more apparent, but rather than removing this systems and virtually hiding the problems, I want to fix the underlying causes of the problems. This is my approach to balancing.

 

[Non]

Not only that but the new recon system allows players to actually find out where the weak points are in your ship and target them

Have you tried doing that at 7km ranges with manual targeting? I have, it doesn't work great, even beams, with their super accuracy, often lose 60% of their damage due to missed shots. Aiming at a 50x50x50 cube (We will say this is the size of the opponents reactor) inside a large ship flying at 300m/s is not realistic. If you doubt me, lets test.

I just don't see the local shields as the reason for the problems you are describing

Honestly no, its not directly the reason, the slow speeds of cannons and such that make them require such a large lead and result in only 25% of your damage actually hitting are closer to being a reason, but the new shields make the problem 20x worse because they require accuracy in a game where accuracy isn't a realistic expectation. Are you really telling me that your method of balancing is going to account for player accuracy to the degree that is required to make new shields work?

 

[schema]

yes. All of what you said is true. And that's my point exactly. I rather balance and improve on exactly those things you mentioned there. Other than general balance changes in behavior (block damage system, speed, range, power, etc) for weapons, one thing for accuracy planned (for the recon chamber) is being able to have a lead indicator. In combination of being able to scan for systems (weapons, reactor), it would help aiming immensely.

 

[Non]

being able to have a lead indicator.

Should be there with every cannon based weapon regardless of chamber (why should i spend the extra mass and reactor capacity on getting an indicator if i can just use beams instead?), but that still wont give you the accuracy to hit a small volume at 7km, unless it literally aims for you. Listen, I am tired and am going to sleep, but my advice is to not go forward with any weapon changes without directly consulting at least red alert, if not most of the top pvp players, if you don't I guarantee you will screw up weapon balance, simply because of your inexperience in pvp.

 

[schema]

Cannons and beams will have different advantages and disadvantages so it will be situation based. Overall, it would be best if we can balance it in a way where the current meta of long range combat would only be an option in certain situations but not always the best option.
We will definitely talk to pvp players as long as the conversation is polite and respectful and it doesn't get out of hand with any accusations or name calling.

Have a good night.

 

[bigdude601]

Tbh and fair non is right here, The majority of the playerbase that is still around to this day is pvp players, significantly messing up the balance at this point could be the nail in the coffin for this game. "just a guesstimation" but I would figure 60-70% of the players that play these days play primarily on the pvp servers, LvD and Freaks are us with brierie here and there. you just don't see many players on the rp servers anymore.