Debris Entity

    jayman38

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    ...However I like...


    That would be awesome! I often wish there was more of a relationship between active systems and power.

    Although, I would also like to enter a ship that is still running red alert lighting. Perhaps incorporate downed lighting with the timing and progression of the degradation before eventually disappearing altogether.
    I would also like to see altered lighting on a derelict. A good overall algorithm for derilict lighting might be to have a 80% chance (server configurable) to turn off a light group. (Turn off any light blocks that are directly controlled by any logic or anything.) Otherwise, if that light group falls into the 20% chance of staying on, it then randomly picks one of several flickering patterns. In this way, you get a very dark derelict, that still has a chance at some spooky flickering lights. This is generally what I see in movies, unless a spaceship is completely dark. (With only a 20% chance of a light group being on, there is a possibility of finding derelicts that are completely dark, and that chance goes up as the chance for light groups to turn off is set closer to 100%.)


    I thought about mentioning the possibility of server configs for different lighting settings for different sizes/block counts, but I figure that is not necessary; smaller ships already will tend to have fewer light groups, so the 80% chance of turning off the light group will have a greater impact on smaller vessels anyway. Larger vessels will tend to have more light groups, so unless every light is controlled by a lightswitch or something, larger ships are almost guaranteed to have flickering lights somewhere.
     
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    yield their block when hand mined, then the rest of the ship would yield a combination of ore, crystals, and scrap when salvaged by a salvage beam
    How about that:

    salvaging with beams:

    if rock return block
    return 100% of the resource cost

    80% of that is returned as unrefined materials (ore/crystals)
    does not count in alloy and composite
    every ore and crystal used in construction yield 75-100% of their respective cost
    return rest of the costs as scrap
    return alloy and composite cost
    return rest of the resource cost as their respective scrap for every ore and crystal

    salvaging by hand:
    if rock return block
    80% chance to return a block
    on fail return 100% of the resource cost

    95% of that is returned as refined materials (capsules)
    does not count in alloy and composite
    every ore and crystal used in construction yield 90-100% of their respective cost
    return rest of the costs as scrap
    return alloy and composite cost
    return rest of the resource cost as their respective scrap for every ore and crystal

    Also spooky derelicts are a VERY good place to have some wildlife on.
    Every derelict has n% chance to be infested with creepy crawlies. Trying to salvage by hand may attract them.
    Just throwing ideas.
     
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    Please note that I will only factor in percentages of 100 or 0. So if you say"2% chance of recovery" I will call it a chance. If you say"99> chance of recovery" I will still say: a chance. This is because balancing and is not meant to degrade ideas. Thank you.
    Perhaps blocks could only be salvaged by hand, to encourage raiders of the lost space ark type gameplay. Lights should also be automatically switched off.
    This would create a way to play and a cool atmosphere to play in. Can't wait till we get space-cobwebs to get stuck on my helmet.
    I have to agree with Lecic on the hand mining. That would drive me nuts.

    However I like...


    That would be awesome! I often wish there was more of a relationship between active systems and power.

    Although, I would also like to enter a ship that is still running red alert lighting. Perhaps incorporate downed lighting with the timing and progression of the degradation before eventually disappearing altogether.
    Maybe the computers and the core of the ship could be increased in value the older they are yet only yield their block when hand mined, then the rest of the ship would yield a combination of ore, crystals, and scrap when salvaged by a salvage beam.
    Ore would make more sense than capsules, as I doubt that when you craft a reactor the capsule is still stuck inside wedged between nuclear rods.
    The same could be done with stations.
    How about that:

    salvaging with beams:

    if rock return block
    return 100% of the resource cost

    80% of that is returned as unrefined materials (ore/crystals)
    does not count in alloy and composite
    every ore and crystal used in construction yield 75-100% of their respective cost
    return rest of the costs as scrap
    return alloy and composite cost
    return rest of the resource cost as their respective scrap for every ore and crystal

    salvaging by hand:
    if rock return block
    80% chance to return a block
    on fail return 100% of the resource cost

    95% of that is returned as refined materials (capsules)
    does not count in alloy and composite
    every ore and crystal used in construction yield 90-100% of their respective cost
    return rest of the costs as scrap
    return alloy and composite cost
    return rest of the resource cost as their respective scrap for every ore and crystal

    Also spooky derelicts are a VERY good place to have some wildlife on.
    Every derelict has n% chance to be infested with creepy crawlies. Trying to salvage by hand may attract them.
    Just throwing ideas.
    First of all, I don't know I I should rate that post useful or creative. Great formatting.




    Anyway ^That idea^ had several versions that I will outline(bc wth)
    1(original) you only get a % of a block by hand mining it.

    2most of the ship can be mined with mining lasers, but cost heavy pieces need to be mined by hand or will lose most(if not all) of their value.

    3 All blocks are able to be mined with mining ships, and either return blocks or all of the resources in a combination of scrap and basic.

    My evaluation of them:
    1: Adventureful, if not practical. This could be fun for ships with big interiors, but would make actual mining of ships almost nonexistent. No one would want to hand mine every block they wanted, even if it was cost free(if there's a chance of not getting it)

    2: Mu personal favorate, this one would give a mining team feel to it. The operation would be done at best efficency with a crew going inside and hunting out the computers and getting them before the miners cut the whole thing to bits. It would allow both exploration and industrialization, and give new players the ability to make a relitive fortune by finding giant hulks and digging out their computers and leaving the less valuable shell for the giant mining cruisers.

    3: This one give you a really big profit from any ship. Each block is mineable by everything and gives either the entire block or the materials to make it again back each time. This one would make derelict mining extremely useful because every ship would basicly be like an asteroid out of systems.
    I have mixed feelings about this one. This would screw with economy and battles a lot because each ship lost in a fight when you had to retreat would give loads of resources to your opponent. Every derelict would be a gold mine, worth at least 20 times any asteroid. Any block(besides basic hull) is worth more than any ore. Unless your on an easymode server with 120x mining bounus, these ships would be worth doezens of hours of asteroid mining. Even the smallest fighters would be quickly grabbed for their weapons and jump drives. Many players would either have buddies with mining ships all their time of give their frigates and combat ships massive mining arrays to salvage ships just as their destroyed. It would vastly change the game, I don't know if I'd like it or not.
     

    TheGT

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    Please note that I will only factor in percentages of 100 or 0. So if you say"2% chance of recovery" I will call it a chance. If you say"99> chance of recovery" I will still say: a chance. This is because balancing and is not meant to degrade ideas. Thank you.







    First of all, I don't know I I should rate that post useful or creative. Great formatting.




    Anyway ^That idea^ had several versions that I will outline(bc wth)
    1(original) you only get a % of a block by hand mining it.

    2most of the ship can be mined with mining lasers, but cost heavy pieces need to be mined by hand or will lose most(if not all) of their value.

    3 All blocks are able to be mined with mining ships, and either return blocks or all of the resources in a combination of scrap and basic.

    My evaluation of them:
    1: Adventureful, if not practical. This could be fun for ships with big interiors, but would make actual mining of ships almost nonexistent. No one would want to hand mine every block they wanted, even if it was cost free(if there's a chance of not getting it)

    2: Mu personal favorate, this one would give a mining team feel to it. The operation would be done at best efficency with a crew going inside and hunting out the computers and getting them before the miners cut the whole thing to bits. It would allow both exploration and industrialization, and give new players the ability to make a relitive fortune by finding giant hulks and digging out their computers and leaving the less valuable shell for the giant mining cruisers.

    3: This one give you a really big profit from any ship. Each block is mineable by everything and gives either the entire block or the materials to make it again back each time. This one would make derelict mining extremely useful because every ship would basicly be like an asteroid out of systems.
    I have mixed feelings about this one. This would screw with economy and battles a lot because each ship lost in a fight when you had to retreat would give loads of resources to your opponent. Every derelict would be a gold mine, worth at least 20 times any asteroid. Any block(besides basic hull) is worth more than any ore. Unless your on an easymode server with 120x mining bounus, these ships would be worth doezens of hours of asteroid mining. Even the smallest fighters would be quickly grabbed for their weapons and jump drives. Many players would either have buddies with mining ships all their time of give their frigates and combat ships massive mining arrays to salvage ships just as their destroyed. It would vastly change the game, I don't know if I'd like it or not.
    Good post, personally number two seems like the best in general as it would combine a cool atmosphere and provide a set for some cool fauna encounters while still remaining a good way to gain resources. Hand mining stuff, however, would be useless unless old things were worth more. Perhaps the age could be shown in the block information tab, or for maximum coolness make separate textures for each price range and let the player guess ( or wiki ) the age of the block. hopefully with the new economy updates making credits actually have a value, it would be worth going in just to snag these billion credit artifacts. When teleporting onto an entity becomes a thing, a multiperson boarding party could have a chance to be split up to a certain degree ( ie one person alone and a group of two).

    You and two crewmembers beam down to a ship. You do a quick headcount and find that joe is missing, so you instruct dave to begin salvaging important components while you begin to search for joe, all you find is a neat pile of his armor and weapons. You assume the worst you begin to assist dave with the mining. You have to fend off hordes of four legged monsters, but you are able to grab everything of value. You instruct your ship to beam dave, and yourself on board and give the command to mine the derelict. The ship then proceeds to pirouette and knock the priceless derelict away.
     

    Lone_Puppy

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    Yeah, when you outline the experience and adventure benefits of option 2, it does sound like a fun option for role play and balance.

    I immediately imagined a team going in to salvage computers and other systems manually. Which is logical and how it would be in a realistic setting. Unless you have a smart replicator technology such as in Star Trek where and industrial replicator can recycle everything no matter what the material.

    This then lends to the idea that a ship using mining cannons would be shredded into it's constituent components or base elements, giving you the raw materials instead of actual blocks.

    Yes, I think you have pointed out a really good option.
     
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    Yeah, when you outline the experience and adventure benefits of option 2, it does sound like a fun option for role play and balance.

    I immediately imagined a team going in to salvage computers and other systems manually. Which is logical and how it would be in a realistic setting. Unless you have a smart replicator technology such as in Star Trek where and industrial replicator can recycle everything no matter what the material.

    This then lends to the idea that a ship using mining cannons would be shredded into it's constituent components or base elements, giving you the raw materials instead of actual blocks.

    Yes, I think you have pointed out a really good option.
    Totally. I <3 capsule scrap.
     
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    I like the idea of capsule-based scrap (Especially when compared to the crap we have as scrap now).

    My own idea of this system is that the overheating system is retained. Except, when a ship is overheated, it is saved as a special blueprint type that cannot be seen. When a certain number of these blueprints accumulates in a system, a graveyard sector is formed. Ships below a minimum mass just vanish, and ships above a maximum mass (Defaults to no max mass) lose blocks.

    In this graveyard sector, the special blueprints are loaded in (Functioning like asteroids, no core) once each. If there is a massive battle where a titan dies, only one titan will be spawned. After the one titan is loaded back in, the blueprint is deleted.
     

    TheGT

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    I like the idea of capsule-based scrap (Especially when compared to the crap we have as scrap now).

    My own idea of this system is that the overheating system is retained. Except, when a ship is overheated, it is saved as a special blueprint type that cannot be seen. When a certain number of these blueprints accumulates in a system, a graveyard sector is formed. Ships below a minimum mass just vanish, and ships above a maximum mass (Defaults to no max mass) lose blocks.

    In this graveyard sector, the special blueprints are loaded in (Functioning like asteroids, no core) once each. If there is a massive battle where a titan dies, only one titan will be spawned. After the one titan is loaded back in, the blueprint is deleted.
    Personally, I find that overheating should be changed, a ship should not disappear, it should explode a bit and drift there. Disappearing = Dissatisfaction, not every ship could or should explode like the death star.

    The thing with graveyards in space is that they are generally not a bunch of ships grouped together, while this would be cool, I doubt that an alien bioship an imperial battle cruiser and a group of industrial frigates would clump together. I would much rather have graveyards marked on the map be the remnants of an epic battle than a random mish mash of ships.

    The game could generate these graveyard sectors by pulling from a database of ships and future fleets and stick in 3 ships from this fleet and 4 from this one and a group of 20 fighters from this one. In a group of 27 systems (3x3 square), you might get 1 or maybe 2 of these.

    Player created graveyards would be marked when there are at least two ships that have become derelicts less than 1-2 systems apart, these would have a separate mark on the map from these battle sectors.

    The game could also generate single ship derelict sites which would have an average frequency of one per system. These would be common enough, but would not be marked on the map until the system that they inhabit is scanned, if any part of the system is scanned, the derelict site would be revealed on the map to the members of the scanning ship, as would its creator (NPC, or Player).

    Totally. I <3 capsule scrap.
    Also, remember that ore/crystal is a bit of something with a lot of other random stuff in it, that's what you would get from crudely salvaging a pile of capacitors or hull, It makes sense that something more preise could extract the full block, (a human/npc). It does not make sense to pull a capsule out of a shield capacitor. (try pulling the gold out of your ram card, you'll understand what I mean)
     
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    That's the thing---this reduces random clutter and lag by removing debris during a battle. Any worthwhile battle will leave enough ships to start a graveyard. The graveyard is the place in the system where (*Mystical hand wave* You will suspend your disbelief) gravity allows/forces wrecks to congregate. Because nothing's cooler than a graveyard of ships in space...filled with bugs, unmarked on your map. Oh, and other people want those wrecks as well...


    I like the idea of a pregenerated graveyard as well, but these should be truly messed up. Very little salvageable material should be left, just hulls and some systems.

    When they come, simulated battles should always leave graveyards of all ships considered destroyed. The graveyards should remain where the battle was considered to be fought.


    Also, we're considering salvagers to be capable of atomically disintegrating and reintegrating materials, transferring them into storages in the atomized/ionized form.
     

    TheGT

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    That's the thing---this reduces random clutter and lag by removing debris during a battle. Any worthwhile battle will leave enough ships to start a graveyard. The graveyard is the place in the system where (*Mystical hand wave* You will suspend your disbelief) gravity allows/forces wrecks to congregate. Because nothing's cooler than a graveyard of ships in space...filled with bugs, unmarked on your map. Oh, and other people want those wrecks as well...


    I like the idea of a pregenerated graveyard as well, but these should be truly messed up. Very little salvageable material should be left, just hulls and some systems.

    When they come, simulated battles should always leave graveyards of all ships considered destroyed. The graveyards should remain where the battle was considered to be fought.


    Also, we're considering salvagers to be capable of atomically disintegrating and reintegrating materials, transferring them into storages in the atomized/ionized form.
    I agree with all this, however, as I stated earlier, it is dissatisfying to watch a ship over s certain mass disintegrate, perhaps ships under the 500 block mark should just death-star explode. This makes sense, as (if we assume the overheated core is exploding) the entire ship would go with it.

    Bigger ships would not do this, the core might explode and that might be a problem, but the entire ship would not go. They could continue to exist, and (after they have been unloaded for a certain period of time) find their way into a gravity well.

    Perhaps these gravity wells could be a sector somewhat close to a planet in order to provide some scientific basis for their being there.

    I understand what you mean about salvagers being able to atomize things and reconstruct them, but I don't think that the scanning technology is good enough in starmade for a computer to be able to reconstruct anything but a jumbled up mess of circuits, ore, crystal, and metal, and if it was, why would this not also work on asteroids.
     

    Lone_Puppy

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    I personally prefer the dead core scenario for later livening up and repairing. Ideally, I would like everything to be dead as if all power was depleted. But then again, if you have a power module technology they doesn't deplete unless damaged or destroyed, then this would mean the systems could stay on.

    I would prefer the debris fields to be generated using some kind of algorithm and natural battles.
    In the case of a natural battle it is like the debris would be harvested straight away by the victor unless it's the result of a failed attack on some automated complex or ship.

    There is also the new NPC factions and their harvesting. They should be also found harvesting these debris fields or derelict ships and stations.

    Only recently I have been successfully taking out pirate stations and seeing first hand how they convert from pirate to derelct. This is something I would like to see happen to ships becoming debris.

    The exploding side of things, I definitely would like to see the countdown result in the ship being further damaged by random explosions like we see when you fly a ship into the sun. This would make boarding the ship important to shutdown the countdown with a reboot in order to save the remains for further exploitation.

    Man, you guys have so many cool ideas. I hope somebody from Schine, in particular schema has seen them.
     
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    Sure I want this feature and I like the idea but...

    Even 'dead' cores will have to be tracked by the game. I am imagining what my killing field would look like after hunting pirates for a couple of hours. They keep coming and I keep killing...and the local space is getting cluttered. I often build a Home base near a pirate station so their fighters keep getting drawn into my turret-gauntlet. Won't someone think of the shipping-hazards...:eek:

    and the children. ; ]
    Why not make it so that the trading guild clear up debris over time if left unattended:?
     
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    The Trading Guild probably has better things to do than poking around dangerous wrecks in space. Especially if these wrecks should eventually end up infested by things...Like mynocks. And space slugs.
     

    Lone_Puppy

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    Why not make it so that the trading guild clear up debris over time if left unattended:?
    There will be AI factions cleaning this stuff up and creating more. So, the game would be quite dynamic and fun on a server. Oh, unless your ships are the ones being turned into debris. ;)
    [doublepost=1470606127,1470606060][/doublepost]
    The Trading Guild probably has better things to do than poking around dangerous wrecks in space. Especially if these wrecks should eventually end up infested by things...Like mynocks. And space slugs.
    ... and players. :)
     
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    Players are in the same category as mynocks.

    Cue crummy Star Wars insult reference.
     
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    try pulling the gold out of your ram card, you'll understand what I mean)
    Melt it down? If you think about it, it's got the same process as refining ore. Unless the gold's bonded to form different molecules in a chemical change, you should be able to toss it in an ore smelter and skim the metals all off.

    Although some plastics may not survive such heats, the capsule resources seem to be metals and crystal dust, which have already survived one refinement. No reason they shouldn't survive another.


    Players are in the same category as mynocks.

    Cue crummy Star Wars insult reference.
    Stop him! Stop him right now!Munchkins Legends reference trumps all.

    About the ship graveyard thing, the only thing I would like to add is when ships despawn, replace it with a beacon(not the block, but the light effect). It would start normal size and the rapidly grow to a explosion, based on ship size. Besides realism, this would give a nice effect/excuse for the ships disappearing, that their warp bubble cracked/their core module overloaded/ their time-space modulator shifted, and they had a big kablosh and jumped(not a nice jump, a jump where everything hits everything)/their core glitches and self distructs/the ship Shifts.
    It'd cast some cool shadows to, and wouldn't be (hopefully, idk how optimized beacons are) that laggy.
     

    Lone_Puppy

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    I've been experimenting with a new ship I'm building lately and it produces a lot of scrap ships. So now I have this massive amount of wreckage floating around. It looks awesome!

    I put them all together into fleets and had them all meet at a designated sector. Naturally, the different trajectories creates a collision of the different fleets creating a nice debris cluster. All I need to do is add some more variations in ships and maybe other junk and it should look just right. :)





     
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    Love the idea of broken lighting that jayman38 & Cluwne pitched up there.

    I'd be fine if debris derelicts were not buyable and did not produce any amazing resources - it's ok for some things to be mostly environmental/decorative/fun. Not everything needs to be a gold mine; we already shred planets for cash. I'm pretty sure people would still go play in debris fields regardless of profit levels. All it would take is the opportunity to see some cool or hilarious stuff going on, and maybe catch another player running around there. Salvaging of derelicts in general needs a boost, but that's not really what I gather the OP was interested in. That said, it would certainly be compelling if at least server generated debris had the occasional storage chest buried in it holding a few hundred K fertikeen or hylat.

    Seeing debris fields as a kind of biome would be fun. Both server-generated & battle borne. It might be possible to create a debris_field_super_entity whenever there is at least one debris_entity in a sector. That super entity could be used to manage some of the other effects people are talking about like merging debris entities over time, determining whether fauna or pirates appear to occupy the field, etc. A super entity could collect total mass & other relevant values from its sector field whenever loaded in (by someone flying up) and feed those through some functions that determine how scattered or clumped the trash in the area is, how likely it is that there are creatures living there, and how likely it is that there are a few pirates or NPC faction ships salvaging the field at precisely this moment.
     

    NeonSturm

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    I imagine a graveyard to look like the rings around Saturn.

    I'd like if the scavenger-faction collects all valuable parts after a day and when the sector was unloaded for a hour.

    Ships should have self-destruct mechanisms. I am no joking. THEY SHOULD HAVE THEM.
    If someone does something devastating to your ship (smash an asteroid against it or use weapons), he should not receive the satisfaction to gain something as reward.
    _____
    ¯¯¯¯¯
    When I could build on a near-atomic level, let's say I have nano-technology 32 atoms wide and 6/8 atoms accurate…
    I would build the ultimate Digital-Restriction-Management to punish theft - be it by criminals or the police grabbing the device without my knowledge - knowledge is power.

    I would build a hollow crystal sphere with inbuilt circuitry which constantly checks itself for integrity.
    If you try to decode it, you will fail, because when you decoded it, it already changed to something new.

    Because of the speed of light, the circuit on the inside of a hollow sphere is faster than the circuit on the outside of a hollow sphere, which makes it impossible to replace a single element, unless you can construct smaller circuits yourself.
    Additionally I would use an integral 2-time-pad algorithm where the last and current password are used to exchange the next password. This algorithm would check neighbours for being replaced so fast, that you cannot replace them in time with verifiable replacements.
    To reduce the chance of a single point of failure, I add a second layer to make it 3D (vs a 2D surface intruders have to use).

    Ok, now I have a hollow sphere you cannot manipulate without it knowing that you try.
    It includes a hot-burning chemical which reacts as soon as the circuit runs out of power (light or electric energy) and destroys not only any physical structure but also sets of an EMP reaction damaging the equipment of the hacker.


    I would use positive/negative pairs of logic to add redundancy and check for a pure-positive or pure-negative effect.

    You cannot gain anything from killing my ships - they would rather self-destruct and run kamikaze on you before leaving anything valuable in an easy-to-collect because dense cloud!
     
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